Nw Resale Restrictions as of Jan 19th

[correcaminos]

In practice, yes. If you did not want your DVC time share, I am sure you could put it on the market for say $1, it would enter ROFR, and DVC would take it. However there is nothing saying that HAS to happen. DVC does not HAVE to take back your time share, nor does anybody HAVE to buy it. This happens all to often with other time shares. You find time shares where the developer still has a large inventory to sell, and they do not want your portion back, even for free (because then they would be responsible for the maintenance costs) and the resale market is non-existent. Do some googling around and you will find people offering their timeshares for free. You will also find a number of law firms doing a bang up business getting people out of timeshares that they are stuck with.

I wonder why Disney as a whole does not allow the take backs. The being responsible for MFs is a good point, but still they likely could resell? I wonder if that's just too much work for them and why you can't just hand it back. Or also maybe worries about financing vs not financing would be there too. Really if someone wants to dump a timeshare though like Disney, they could without much issue. Even if it means taking a massive hit.

Just curious... does anything change for people who rent points thru sites like dvcrequest.com?

Not really - it's all dependent upon who can book for you anyway (outside of regular availability) so that part really isn't much different.

 

[eliza61nyc]

To the above two points, just spoke with our DVC rep and was told this:

Current prices, increasing 1/16/19 to…
VCF: 220 to 245
BLT: 191 to 225
Copper creek: 182 to 188
SSR: 152 to 160

The impression I got (just an impression!!) was that Riviera would be closer to BLT in point cost... I'd guess btwn copper creek and BLT, but who knows...


Who knows what will happen with this most recent change, but we purchased SSR direct from DVC 13 years ago for $93/pt and current average resale is about $105. So doesn't quite keep up with inflation, but we've used the heck out of it over these years and have most certainly gotten our money's worth and then some. The main thing I retained from a brief stint working in timeshare years ago (not Disney) is that it's a good move if you're actually going to use it primarily where you've purchased. Then there can be a good deal of savings over the years. But it's not an investment in the traditional sense, IMO.

people need to keep saying, reading and breathing this. If someone is looking at a timeshare and even wondering about "resale" value, then they should not be purchasing. IMO.

 

[GoofGoof]

people need to keep saying, reading and breathing this. If someone is looking at a timeshare and even wondering about "resale" value, then they should not be purchasing. IMO.

Resale value is extremely important. It’s one of the major things that differentiates DVC from traditional timeshares. Many timeshares have little or no resale value. If you buy in you are basically stuck with the timeshare no matter what happens in your life. You don’t want it anymore, too bad...pay the MFs or go into default and screw up your credit. With a strong resale market also backed up by Disney’s ROFR that’s not an issue with DVC.

Things change. People and their tastes change. People lose jobs, get divorced, have a long term illness or a sick family member to take care of. Sure, some people just get sick of vacationing at the same place or their tastes change but a lot of times when people sell it’s because they need to. Whatever the reason, a strong resale value gives you a safety net to know you can get out without losing everything you put in if you need to. Even a few years back a person who bought direct could recover almost all of their initial upfront “investment”.

 

[GoofGoof]

To the above two points, just spoke with our DVC rep and was told this:

Current prices, increasing 1/16/19 to…
VCF: 220 to 245
BLT: 191 to 225
Copper creek: 182 to 188
SSR: 152 to 160

The impression I got (just an impression!!) was that Riviera would be closer to BLT in point cost... I'd guess btwn copper creek and BLT, but who knows...

$225 for BLT is 2.5 times what I paid 8 years ago.

I think $200 seems possible for Riviera, although not gonna be an easy sell with the new restrictions on resale there. Wow. It’s really hard to justify buying at those prices, but they still seem to have little problem selling.

 

[Lensman]

people need to keep saying, reading and breathing this. If someone is looking at a timeshare and even wondering about "resale" value, then they should not be purchasing. IMO.

Though I agree that DVC should not be viewed as an investment, I do think that looking at resale value can be a factor in deciding whether it is for you.
1. You could be in a situation where you only want to use it for the next 10-20 years and then sell, in which case the ability to sell at a good price is valuable.
2. Resale value is a good metric for true market value (modulo the now and future differences in membership benefits). If a substantially identical product is available direct from the manufacturer vs from a reseller at half price, you might think about where to buy. An analogy is with new cars where they lose 10% of their value once you drive it off the lot. Is that premium for direct/new worth it?
3. The inability to sell some timeshares in the resale market is a giant red flag that they have negative market value and are a product, like whole life insurance, that is "sold but not bought".

Anyway, I agree that viewing DVC as an investment is a dangerous thing, but I do think that looking at resale prices can be useful.

 

[GoofGoof]

1. You could be in a situation where you only want to use it for the next 10-20 years and then sell, in which case the ability to sell at a good price is valuable.

A good point. Most people can’t say what they will be doing in 10 years let alone 25 or 50. You really can’t or shouldn’t look at DVC as a 50 year purchase. I think for most people it’s around a 10 year purchase. That’s not to say you have to or will even want to sell in 10 years it’s just that you can’t assume anything much further out. If you assume a terminal value of zero after 10 years (assuming there is no resale value) then you would need to break even on money saved alone to consider it a wise purchase.

 

[eliza61nyc]

A good point. Most people can’t say what they will be doing in 10 years let alone 25 or 50. You really can’t or shouldn’t look at DVC as a 50 year purchase. I think for most people it’s around a 10 year purchase. That’s not to say you have to or will even want to sell in 10 years it’s just that you can’t assume anything much further out. If you assume a terminal value of zero after 10 years (assuming there is no resale value) then you would need to break even on money saved alone to consider it a wise purchase.

Great post guys,

I think the issue for me comes with the timesshare sales process. lol, because I live near Atlantic city I've attended quite a few of these presentations. lol in the summer they come with dinner and a ticket to a show for attending. Anyhoo, generally (definitely Marriott and Hilton grand) one of the big "pitches" is how they are 1) so easy to sell and 2) the great value when you sell.

That is a huge point at these presentations. As someone else pointed out, that is how those timeshare exit companies stay in business, b thousands of folks purchase with the expectation, after being told many times at their sales presentation that they could sell at any time and get back a good portion of their "investment".


so for me, I actually tell people to assume the value will be zero when/if you want to sell. When we purchased we absolutely did not factor into one dime of profit, if we ever decided to sell. We looked at it squarely on the basis of "will it save us money on our trips to Disney". for us It is a hedge on inflation, a prepaid vacation. a vacation in 2020 paid for in 2000 dollars.


LOL now in the interest of full disclosure, we were probably the poster children of "How NOT to buy a timeshare". we didn't crunch any numbers prior. On our second trip with the kids, we knew we were going tobe coming back for the foreseeable future so we purchased.
I definitely wouldn't recommend that

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Great post guys,

I think the issue for me comes with the timesshare sales process. lol, because I live near Atlantic city I've attended quite a few of these presentations. lol in the summer they come with dinner and a ticket to a show for attending. Anyhoo, generally (definitely Marriott and Hilton grand) one of the big "pitches" is how they are 1) so easy to sell and 2) the great value when you sell.

That is a huge point at these presentations. As someone else pointed out, that is how those timeshare exit companies stay in business, b thousands of folks purchase with the expectation, after being told many times at their sales presentation that they could sell at any time and get back a good portion of their "investment".


so for me, I actually tell people to assume the value will be zero when/if you want to sell. When we purchased we absolutely did not factor into one dime of profit, if we ever decided to sell. We looked at it squarely on the basis of "will it save us money on our trips to Disney". for us It is a hedge on inflation, a prepaid vacation. a vacation in 2020 paid for in 2000 dollars.


LOL now in the interest of full disclosure, we were probably the poster children of "How NOT to buy a timeshare". we didn't crunch any numbers prior. On our second trip with the kids, we knew we were going tobe coming back for the foreseeable future so we purchased.
I definitely wouldn't recommend that

No question that some companies engage in deceptive sales practices, including overselling the ease of sale and $$ gain with resale down the line. We're both numbers people and calculated a break-even point -- we're already past it for both our SSR and BLT points, so a good place to be. The more you use your timeshare where you purchase, the shorter your break-even period. We really would have gone to WDW at least once a year and stayed deluxe, so we knew how to price that out. The good news is that you can still "come out a head" without a calculation if you do use your points as you go and really would have gone even if you hadn't bought DVC.

Now the resale is something that we ignored in our calculation in terms of a dollar amount. We did have a sense of how DVC did in relation to other timeshares on that front and the relative ease of selling smaller contracts in the healthy resale market. I can't imagine any owner is thrilled with this recent change, but I suspect Disney thinks they've been leaving money on the table by "allowing" such a robust resale market.

 

[kong1802]

$225 for BLT is 2.5 times what I paid 8 years ago.

I think $200 seems possible for Riviera, although not gonna be an easy sell with the new restrictions on resale there. Wow. It’s really hard to justify buying at those prices, but they still seem to have little problem selling.

Wow, even SSR at $160 becomes a really tough pill to swallow. Without factoring in the seemingly annual increase on dues, it would take you about 20 years to break even on your initial investment vs savings. (you'd also have to do a more robust calculation on inflation, but I believe 20 years is close). I mean, 20 years still isn't that terrible industry wide, but 10 was an easier sell. I wish I was on these boards 8 years ago! I probably would have still talked myself out of it, but you guys are living the dream, lol

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Wow, even SSR at $160 becomes a really tough pill to swallow. Without factoring in the seemingly annual increase on dues, it would take you about 20 years to break even on your initial investment vs savings. (you'd also have to do a more robust calculation on inflation, but I believe 20 years is close). I mean, 20 years still isn't that terrible industry wide, but 10 was an easier sell. I wish I was on these boards 8 years ago! I probably would have still talked myself out of it, but you guys are living the dream, lol

About 7 years to break-even by my calculation with SSR at $160pp if 10 nights/year in 2BR during peak period, building in inflation assumption. Lots of variables that depend on when/how you travel and how/if you finance.

 

[kong1802]

About 7 years to break-even by my calculation with SSR at $160pp if 10 nights/year in 2BR during peak period, building in inflation assumption. Lots of variables that depend on when/how you travel.

True. I was just looking at the minimal use at 100 pts which seems to be the smallest/largest contract I would consider. So looking at studios. But there are obviously many scenarios to run.

 

[Phonedave]

I wonder why Disney as a whole does not allow the take backs. The being responsible for MFs is a good point, but still they likely could resell? I wonder if that's just too much work for them and why you can't just hand it back. Or also maybe worries about financing vs not financing would be there too. Really if someone wants to dump a timeshare though like Disney, they could without much issue. Even if it means taking a massive hit.

I suspect there are "no take back" for two reasons.

1) It is standard industry practice. Especially looking at it as a real estate transaction, and not as a partial ownership of a time share. If a developer builds a 50 home community, you can't just tell them you made a mistake buying this house, now take it back.

2) It protects DVC with no real downside. By not allowing "take backs" across the board, someone cant say something along the lines of "you took theirs, now you have to take mine". If, for whatever financial or market reason DVC does not want a "free" contract, they don't need to take it. However, there is always ROFR for DVC to use to scoop any close to $0 contracts that were out there if they want to.

 

[GoofGoof]

Great post guys,

I think the issue for me comes with the timesshare sales process. lol, because I live near Atlantic city I've attended quite a few of these presentations. lol in the summer they come with dinner and a ticket to a show for attending. Anyhoo, generally (definitely Marriott and Hilton grand) one of the big "pitches" is how they are 1) so easy to sell and 2) the great value when you sell.

That is a huge point at these presentations. As someone else pointed out, that is how those timeshare exit companies stay in business, b thousands of folks purchase with the expectation, after being told many times at their sales presentation that they could sell at any time and get back a good portion of their "investment".


so for me, I actually tell people to assume the value will be zero when/if you want to sell. When we purchased we absolutely did not factor into one dime of profit, if we ever decided to sell. We looked at it squarely on the basis of "will it save us money on our trips to Disney". for us It is a hedge on inflation, a prepaid vacation. a vacation in 2020 paid for in 2000 dollars.


LOL now in the interest of full disclosure, we were probably the poster children of "How NOT to buy a timeshare". we didn't crunch any numbers prior. On our second trip with the kids, we knew we were going tobe coming back for the foreseeable future so we purchased.
I definitely wouldn't recommend that

Hilton and Marriott have both come a long way with their programs. It may not be a complete lie depending on where you are buying in at. Atlantic City...not sure I’d feel good about resale there. That being said those well established programs are still nothing in comparison to DVC at WDW. Between the well known rental market and Disney’s ROFR backed resale market there will always be some value for a DVC contract as long as WDW is in business.

I don’t think most people plan to or want to sell their DVC points but it’s nice to have that to fall back on.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Hilton and Marriott have both come a long way with their programs. It may not be a complete lie depending on where you are buying in at. Atlantic City...not sure I’d feel good about resale there. That being said those well established programs are still nothing in comparison to DVC at WDW. Between the well known rental market and Disney’s ROFR backed resale market there will always be some value for a DVC contract as long as WDW is in business.

I don’t think most people plan to or want to sell their DVC points but it’s nice to have that to fall back on.

Very OT,

lol, I wish I could say my millennial college kids were totally mature and on track, some times they say statements that make me giggle and think "oh kid, real life is going to kill you" anyhoo my youngest said to me a week before Christmas that he wouldn't mind if we drove down to the world in February. I said, Sorry sweetie we don't have enough points for that, to which Mr. Millennial said, "Ma, we really need to buy more points". Great kid, how about I trade in your college tuition for that or do you have a few grand lying around.
I think they would smother me in my sleep if I said I was going to sell my points. I keep hearing folks who say their kids don't want to travel with them anymore and wondering when that is going to happen.

Yep I totally plan on being a burden to this kid!!

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Very OT,

lol, I wish I could say my millennial college kids were totally mature and on track, some times they say statements that make me giggle and think "oh kid, real life is going to kill you" anyhoo my youngest said to me a week before Christmas that he wouldn't mind if we drove down to the world in February. I said, Sorry sweetie we don't have enough points for that, to which Mr. Millennial said, "Ma, we really need to buy more points". Great kid, how about I trade in your college tuition for that or do you have a few grand lying around.
I think they would smother me in my sleep if I said I was going to sell my points. I keep hearing folks who say their kids don't want to travel with them anymore and wondering when that is going to happen.

Yep I totally plan on being a burden to this kid!!

Too funny!! :-D

 

[LuvtheGoof]

This whole DVC issue had me re interested in crunching some DVC numbers....

The cheapest contract for 100 pts I could find is going for roughly $100/pp for OKW. With maint fees and quick calculations it would take about 15 years to break even on that investment, leaving roughly 5 years of "payback". I.e “free stays”

How are they selling these things at $170/pp at the resorts that need more points to book?! I know its off topic, but I wanted to take another look at the market.

Call me when they are back down to $70/pp max.... giving a break even of closer to 8 years, lol

Actually, you can buy in right now at Vero Beach for $59 (200 points) or Hilton Head for $69 (300 points). You'd still be grandfathered if you buy now.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Resale value is extremely important. It’s one of the major things that differentiates DVC from traditional timeshares. Many timeshares have little or no resale value. If you buy in you are basically stuck with the timeshare no matter what happens in your life. You don’t want it anymore, too bad...pay the MFs or go into default and screw up your credit. With a strong resale market also backed up by Disney’s ROFR that’s not an issue with DVC.

Things change. People and their tastes change. People lose jobs, get divorced, have a long term illness or a sick family member to take care of. Sure, some people just get sick of vacationing at the same place or their tastes change but a lot of times when people sell it’s because they need to. Whatever the reason, a strong resale value gives you a safety net to know you can get out without losing everything you put in if you need to. Even a few years back a person who bought direct could recover almost all of their initial upfront “investment”.

I think they’ve “tolerated”
Renting and resells for 20 years...that is coming to a close. They want you to buy from them at their ransom. I don’t think they even care if you show up and spend anymore - which was the original premise (I worked with the first GM...that’s not a debate)

$150 a point at Saratoga now equals a 110% increase in price for 13 less years than I have gotten out of my contract.

Are people insane? This isn’t a collectors item. In fact...it disappears at midnight in 2054. Nuts.

Actually, you can buy in right now at Vero Beach for $59 (200 points) or Hilton Head for $69 (300 points). You'd still be grandfathered if you buy now.

Yeah...for 8 days...maybe...depending on their interpretation of “submission” and “completion”.

Then it’s a weird new ballgame.

I kinda wish they’d go full 80’s timeshare...set room on a set week and nobody will ever want to buy it. Let it all be done

 

[kong1802]

Actually, you can buy in right now at Vero Beach for $59 (200 points) or Hilton Head for $69 (300 points). You'd still be grandfathered if you buy now.

I'd be too worried about availability issues knowing I'd only get to book <7 months out. But that price does reflect the risk.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I'd be too worried about availability issues knowing I'd only get to book <7 months out. But that price does reflect the risk.

Agreed. Depending on when you're going and what unit type you're looking for, it is increasingly slim pickings at the 7mo window in our experience.

 

[Lensman]

my youngest said to me a week before Christmas that he wouldn't mind if we drove down to the world in February. I said, Sorry sweetie we don't have enough points for that, to which Mr. Millennial said, "Ma, we really need to buy more points".

I can't blame him for wanting to get out of the Northeast in February. Also, I have to commend him on the use of "we", when he really means "you". He's got a bright future!