New Cruise Itineraries - a big mistake?

[William Marsden]

I know I've posted about Disney's proposed changes to their 7 day Cruise Itineraries before but I've been thinking about it a while and I have to put in my two cents. As stated before, travel agents are hearing that begining in May 2007, Disney will be changing their 7 day cruise destinations to Europe or Alaska. While there's no official word on this, it's safe to say that such proposals are being seriously considered.

I'm sure that Disney executives just don't make changes like this without studying the potential benefits, but I can't help but think that they're making a big mistake.

First; most people who take a Caribbean Cruise are looking forward to the ship more than the ports. Some may have big preferences whether they sail to the Eastern, Western, or Southern Caribbean, but most people just want to go on a cruise. Disney offers a unique ship. This fact, along with the opportunity to seamlessly combine a peaceful cruise with a Disney vacation (which, let's face it, isn't a very relaxing venue), gives DCL a real niche. Therefore, Disney can and usually does charge more for their cruises than do the big seven cruiselines.

Patrons who cruise in Alaska or Europe are different. These cruisers are destination driven. You can scuba or snorkle in most of the ports of the Caribbean, but there's only one Denali Park, Skagway or Mount Mckinley in Alaska. The same point holds even truer in Europe. I can't see paying a premium price to cruise these ports with the Disney Company. As for combining a cruise with a theme park, Disneyland Paris seems to far inland and if enviornmentalists won't let us drill for oil in Alaska, I doubt that Disney will be building a theme park there in the near future.

Second; travel agents will all be in agreement that Princess and Holland America basically own the Alaskan Cruise scene. If you're going to be successful in Alaska, you not only have to get your ship up there, you have to have the facilities for land excursions. That means lodges, hotels, trains, buses, etc. When you ask for information from Princess or Holland America about their Alaskan cruises, the brochures are three times the size of any of their other destinations with literally dozens of different options for cruisetours and shore excursions. Princess has built their own facilities. Holland America has a partnership with Westin. Is Disney going to partner with someone or are they going to build their own stuff? One thing for sure is that they're going to have to do something beyond just getting one of their boats up to Alaska.

Third; besides these same problems in Europe, there's a unique situation that I don't like to think about but .... The most popular ports in Europe are frequented on Mediterranean cruises. Now I'm not an alarmist. Since 9/11 I haven't ever been afraid to fly or visit anywhere. However, while I believe terrorists would be happy to obliterate any cruise ship, a Disney ship that calls in the Greek Isles, Istanbul, Cairo or Haifa would seem to be an irresistable target. I wouldn't feel safe and I'm sure there are many others who might be willing to visit these ports but wouldn't do it on the Disney Magic or Wonder.

I may just be sounding like an old naysayer but I believe Disney should do what they do best and what has proved successful for them. Big coorparations are capable of making big mistakes. Remember when Coke came out with a "new formula"? I guess my two cents turned into several dollars and change but those are my thoughts.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

I think you have some valid points.
My understanding from information that has been thrown around is that these types of discussions began after the cruise experiment to the west coast last year. Add to that Disney considering building additional ship(s) when the price is right. I thought one would go to the west coast. Haven't heard about Europe specifically, but if considered, don't think that would happen for a good while.

I'm happy staying in the Carribean, and with the exception of Castaway Cay, mostly on ship.

 

[PrinceDon]

My next Alaskan Cruise will be With Disney

I did a inner passage cruise a few years ago and I was bored while being on board . The ports were fine, but since I don't care to gamble, the only thing else is to eat and look along the shores. I would have rather been entertained for the entire trip than a few hours day while I was off my device of transportation(ship). I am very hopeful that they will find a way to give a few cruises in that direction in the next few years. I would also be willing to do a Europe cruise with the company.

Does anyone know the status of the tours Disney did in Hawaii and Grand Canyon (or was it Yellowstone) last year? How did they go, are they looking to do more?

 

[tammycooley]

I for one wanted to take a 7 night in June 2007, however I am very disappointed we will not be able to do that. I am now booked on the Wonder which is awesome too, but really wanted to do the western....I too have no desire for Alaska or Europe. Give me the sunny Caribbean anytime!!!!!

 

[Empress Room]

You certainly have some valid concerns; however, I would be surprised if these travel agents are correct and would be even more surprised if Disney decided to put both of its ships to alternate itineraries without leaving at least one in its core Carribean location in 2007.

These rumors have been circulating for at least three or four years - I have cruised on DCL at least four times since the rumors began (and most recently last week). Captain Henry of the Wonder, during the Castaway Club reception for returning guests, made no mention of any earth-shattering itineraries for 2007 - only that the Wonder would be going into dry dock in the fall of 2007 for a Magic-like makeover.

My personal best guess is that none of these alternate Alaska or European itineraries will become reality unless and until Disney builds its third (and fourth) ships - still also in rumor stage. For the foreseeable future, expect the Wonder and Magic to respond to guests' desires for different itineraries by adding the 10 and 11 day special itineraries that they have over the last year or so.

 

[Enderikari]

Does anyone know the status of the tours Disney did in Hawaii and Grand Canyon (or was it Yellowstone) last year? How did they go, are they looking to do more?

The Adventures by Disney project is still a go... but it will be at least 8 months before you'll see anything about it, they are still in the process of hiring qualified tour guides from all around the world in order to bring the Disney magic to the grandest vistas you'll find... Also, it was Yellowstone, and parts of Italy, that is a part of the project.

 

[shoppingnut]

First, let me point out that Holland America is owned by Carnival Cruise Line. Also you do not need to have facilities, etc. established in Alaska as most cruise lines share their buses etc., I know this because when we went to Alaska this past summer on NCL, when we arrived in Skagway, we were put on a Holland America bus. NCL had partnered with a few hotels in Seattle for pre and post cruise stays, each cruise line usually has at least three price range levels of hotel to select from and we stayed at the Sheraton right in downtown. The tours in each port of Alaska are pretty much the same from cruise line to cruise line, they are what they are, so disney will most likely offer the same ones. They just need to partner with various hotels, etc. it's not such a big deal, they can easily create a template from other cruise lines information and tweak it to their own likes.

You mention that Alaska and European cruisers are destination driven, isn't this also true for people going to the Carribbean or on any cruise, or even just a vacation to Disney World, for that matter to a degree. I also don't find myself very different from anyone who chooses to go on a Carribbean cruise. I have been to Alaska twice and it is so beautiful, but I have been to the Carribbean many many times and have been on a variety of cruise lines including Disney.

Changing the destination isn't about building another theme park in Alaska or Europe, it is about giving people a chance to see other places aboard a "Disney Cruise Ship." If they are going to make this change, it is clear that this is something that people who have sailed with Disney have put in their surveys that are given at the end of each cruise. Also, cruising in Alaska is only 4 months out of the year. I would think that it would be more cost effective for disney to move one of its ships up to Alaska for a season to see how well they could do in bookings, etc. before building a new ship and the same is true for Europe.

Regarding Europe, I have wanted to go on cruises in Europe for a long time, but the only thing that has held me back is that the ships in Europe are either the very expensive ones which are more like yachts or ships I wouldn't sail on because they are not the quality ones. With Disney doing a European run, I wouldn't have to worry about quality in the least because I would know what to expect and as far as price, I would imagine that are going to target to the middle road. I would find Disney worth the premium price in Europe because it will be well below the yacht prices and yet I'd be getting a quality ship.

My question to you considering safety is, do you feel safe when visiting Disney World, because they are on the top 10 target list for terrorists and if I'm not mistaken within the top 5. As far as the ship being a target, I have news for you, that could happen anywhere, anytime, you don't have to be in Europe. Terrorists can easily get to the Carribbean or anywhere else in the world. Europe has many more places to visit then the Mediterranian, how about Ireland, England, Scotland, Norway, Sweden, St. Petersberg to name a few. Also, some of those Carribbean Islands are no great shakes either, not all of them are safe havens to be walking around.

Because Disney isn't building new ships to service these areas it isn't like the new coke because they are taking an existing ship and repositioning it to test the potential markets, which makes more sense. They are not building an entirely new factory lines to make the product. This is far more cost effective and if it doesn't work they just move the ship back to FL. From what I understand when they had the cruise from FL to CA it was completely book within a short time and the CA run has done very well. If they are considering this change, it must be from passenger feedback. I would be happy to see this change because then maybe we will see more Disney ships being built.

 

[William Marsden]

You certainly have some valid concerns; however, I would be surprised if these travel agents are correct and would be even more surprised if Disney decided to put both of its ships to alternate itineraries without leaving at least one in its core Carribean location in 2007.

Captain Henry of the Wonder, during the Castaway Club reception for returning guests, made no mention of any earth-shattering itineraries for 2007

Disney will indeed keep one of it's ships in the Caribbean for summer of 2007, however it will be going on 3 and 4 day cruises which you can currently book. The 7 day cruises can be booked until April of 2007 but then Disney hasn't announced anything. I fear that if new itineraries take Disney into different waters, that the seven day cruises will see a shorter season in the Caribbean. I'm glad that Captain Henry didn't mention anything about new destinations. I just hope that Disney doesn't venture out like the rumors imply until they build more ships.

 

[William Marsden]

I wrote some replies to your post a while ago but I deleted it by mistake. I don't know if you'll get these comments but....


"First, let me point out that Holland America is owned by Carnival Cruise Line."


I know. Carnival also owns Princess, Seabourne, Windstar, Cunard and some other smaller lines while Royal Caribbean has purchased Celebrity. It seems that if your going to run a cruiseline today, you've really got to be able to play with the big boys or you're going to be swallowed up.


"Also you do not need to have facilities, etc. established in Alaska as most cruise lines share their buses etc., I know this because when we went to Alaska this past summer on NCL, when we arrived in Skagway, we were put on a Holland America bus.... They just need to partner with various hotels, etc. it's not such a big deal, they can easily create a template from other cruise lines information and tweak it to their own likes."


However, when it comes to sharing facilities, Disney doesn't seem to be able to "play well with others". One of the big reasons that Disney began a cruiseline was their dissatisfaction with the Big Red Boat.


"You mention that Alaska and European cruisers are destination driven, isn't this also true for people going to the Carribbean or on any cruise, or even just a vacation to Disney World, for that matter to a degree."


There is a difference however. European travel was popular long before big cruiselines started coming to their ports. On the other hand, the Caribbean has seen an explosion in travel since the cruising industry has taken off. When I consider a Caribbean Cruise, I'm much more interested in the onboard cuisine, entertainment, staterooms, spas, pools, programs and activities then whether or not we'll be stopping in Cozumel or St Maartin. However, I am very interested in visiting places like St. Petersburg, Helsinki, Oslo, Istanbul, Constantinople etc. and I'd be happy to do it for a good price even if the ship didn't offer "Elemis Aroma Stone Therapy". I don't consider myself atypical in this opinion.


"Changing the destination isn't about building another theme park in Alaska or Europe, it is about giving people a chance to see other places aboard a "Disney Cruise Ship." If they are going to make this change, it is clear that this is something that people who have sailed with Disney have put in their surveys that are given at the end of each cruise. Also, cruising in Alaska is only 4 months out of the year."


But why would you want to tamper with something that's a sure success to experiment with an unproven venue even if it is for only 4 months?


"Regarding Europe, I have wanted to go on cruises in Europe for a long time, but the only thing that has held me back is that the ships in Europe are either the very expensive ones which are more like yachts or ships I wouldn't sail on because they are not the quality ones... With Disney doing a European run, I wouldn't have to worry about quality in the least because I would know what to expect and as far as price, I would imagine that are going to target to the middle road. I would find Disney worth the premium price in Europe because it will be well below the yacht prices and yet I'd be getting a quality ship."


The biggest cruiselines in Europe right now are Costa, Holland America, Princess, Celebrity and to a lesser extent, Norwegian. All of these lines have great ships which in many ways (especially in cuisine), are rated higher than the Magic or Wonder. So you wouldn't have to worry about quality if you were to sail with one of these companies. Beyond that, all of these cruiselines can boast less expensive fares in the Caribbean then DCL. So if you're looking for the best value in a European Cruise, I doubt Disney will be your best bet.


"My question to you considering safety is, do you feel safe when visiting Disney World, because they are on the top 10 target list for terrorists and if I'm not mistaken within the top 5. As far as the ship being a target, I have news for you, that could happen anywhere, anytime, you don't have to be in Europe. Terrorists can easily get to the Carribbean or anywhere else in the world. Europe has many more places to visit then the Mediterranian, how about Ireland, England, Scotland, Norway, Sweden, St. Petersberg to name a few."


I know that Disney is already targeted by terrorists. But Disney hires it's own guards and controls its own security in the themeparks, at the resorts and aboard the ships. My concern is not with Disney but with the port authorities in Europe. There have been terrible attacks in Russia, Great Britain, France, Spain and Italy since 9/11. There hasn't been an attack in the U.S. I don't think that it's because terrorists haven't wanted to attack us here, but I strongly believe that they attacked softer targets. Nobody feels safe anymore, but if I were employed by Haliburton, I'd feel alot safer going to work here than in Iraq. There are probably many reasons why America hasn't been attacked since that terrible September day but one of the them has to be location, location, location. By the way, even though there are cruises in the Baltic Seas and Ireland/England, the Mediterranean destinations are the most popular.


"Because Disney isn't building new ships to service these areas it isn't like the new coke because they are taking an existing ship and repositioning it to test the potential markets, which makes more sense. They are not building an entirely new factory lines to make the product. This is far more cost effective and if it doesn't work they just move the ship back to FL."


This is my strongest disagreement. If you want to try something new, you don't experiment with something that's already a success. Imagine if they decided to disassemble Disneyland and assemble it in Shanghai because it was cheaper than building a whole new themepark and they wanted to test a new market. It may not be a fair comparison but I still am wondering why in the world they'd mess with a sure thing. If they built a new ship and it didn't do well in Alaska or Europe I'm certain Disney could bring it to the Caribbean and fill it to capacity.


"From what I understand when they had the cruise from FL to CA it was completely book within a short time and the CA run has done very well."


From what I understand, most of the passangers who traveled from outside the Los Angeles area combined their cruise with a trip to Disneyland/California Adventure. You can't do that in Alaska or Europe.


"I would be happy to see this change because then maybe we will see more Disney ships being built."

Here I agree. You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger Disney fan than me. I'd like to see Disney build more ships, resorts, themeparks, transportation systems, and merchandise from linens to popcorn makers. What I don't want to see is Disney abandoning what they already have, particularly when they have a success story. I understand that you have to continue to evolve in order to be competitive. But it's also important to keep what works. Sure, the Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh is a great ride, but did they really have to get rid of Mr. Toad?

 

[shoppingnut]

One thing is clear though, if they are considering moving into the Alaska and European market, it's not about tampering with success, it's about expanding their business targeting a nich that has been ignored in those regions, basically "families" that want to travel there. In both the Alaska and European markets, the majority of ships are geared towards older people without kids, one exception is NCL, but the food on NCL is a bit to be desired. The ships there now do not have anything besides a pool on board for kids which chances are you are not going to be using, but disney would have a host of other things for the kids to do and this is why I think they are considering testing the market there before investing in a new ship.

Moving the ship for 4 months makes more sense because "testing" won't cost them in excess of $100 million as building a new ship would and they have most likely done enough research to know that right now adding another ship the carribbean is just not feasable and may be difficult to fill with passengers in the economy starts changing.

When you fill in those surveys at the end of your cruise, they do ask questions like what other ports would you like to visit or see their ships visit.

Granted I know disney definitely doesn't play nice with others, but I bet for 4 months they could and would to get the feel and learn all they can before diving in head first to this venture.

Safety is an illusion, if someone wants to do something it isn't going to matter one way or another where you are located.

I just hope if they do this test, we will see another ship being built. I would definitely go on a disney ship to Alaska and would definitely be taking my niece and nephew.

 

[William Marsden]

"I just hope if they do this test, we will see another ship being built."

I spoke with a DVC representative about 2 months ago (no, I'm not a member) and he told me that Disney was planning on building more ships and that they really needed to build more ships. They were just waiting for costs to come down.

I'm like everyone else. I want to see more ships and apparently when they have more ships to fill, we'll probably see DCL prices come down especially in the off-season.

Incidently, I've probably seen as much advertisement for the Disney Cruiseline as I have for any other cruise company, yet they only have two ships to worry about. Royal Caribbean has twenty ships in its fleet and Carnival has twenty-one. All of that advertising for only two ships. Go figure.

 

[shoppingnut]

Remember that they are not only advertising the ships, they are advertising WDW too, since they are trying to get people into WDW as well with the 3 and 4 day runs. Also when you are new in the game, you have to advertise because you don't have the amount of repeat passengers that other lines have that do the word of mouth advertising for them.

 

[Empress Room]

Disney will indeed keep one of it's ships in the Caribbean for summer of 2007, however it will be going on 3 and 4 day cruises which you can currently book. The 7 day cruises can be booked until April of 2007 but then Disney hasn't announced anything. I fear that if new itineraries take Disney into different waters, that the seven day cruises will see a shorter season in the Caribbean. I'm glad that Captain Henry didn't mention anything about new destinations. I just hope that Disney doesn't venture out like the rumors imply until they build more ships.

I do find it interesting (as a veteran of DCL cruises) that Disney seems to be more willing to schedule longer itinerary cruises for the Wonder during the upcoming year. As we know, the Wonder has historically been the three-day/four-day ship and the Magic has been the seven and special itinerary ship. This year in September prior to its drydock, the Wonder is on two long ten-day (I'll be there!) and eleven-day cruises. It's possible that Disney wants to get the crew/staff/performers more accustomed to these multi-day itineraries because something is planned for the Magic in a different location. Time will tell - but I do see a day in the not-too-distant future when Disney adds another ship or two to address these other exotic ports.