Monorail or Bus?

[Thrill]

Any monorail expansion should be done in conjunction with a build out of solar power. Even without a monorail expansion WDW is ripe for solar power. Panel prices have come way down to the point that they are getting close to being on pace with fossil fuels and the PR from being "green" would go a long way. Disney could also potentially get green energy sponsors to fund part of the monorail expansion. "This monorail line has been brought to you by Green Mountain Energy". Buffet's Mid American Energy has been getting heavily into renewables too. Another possible sponsor. Large sections of the Northeast, Midwest, CA and Texas have de-regulated energy markets where renewable players like Green Mountain are looking to add customers. A large number of visitors to WDW come from these key areas, especially the NE. It would be a great way to get the name familiar with millions of people if every time you got on the monorail you were reminded who was powering it.

Look at what's been happening in the NFL these days. New England, NY, Philly, Washington DC, SF and probably soon others have added solar panels to the stadiums to be more green. It makes perfect sense to extend a program like this to WDW.

Solar is a poor solution because it only works during the day. The electricity which I am using now was just generated fractions of a second ago, so I can guarantee you that it did not come from a solar panel. Solar only works at scale if you have enormous batteries. At that point, you're probably better off running on nuclear or clean coal.

Not only is solar a logistical issue, but it's not 100% green, either. It isn't producing greenhouse gases while generating electricity, but building solar panels is a nasty process.

Solar is overhyped. I vote nuclear power.

 

[GoofGoof]

Solar is a poor solution because it only works during the day. The electricity which I am using now was just generated fractions of a second ago, so I can guarantee you that it did not come from a solar panel. Solar only works at scale if you have enormous batteries. At that point, you're probably better off running on nuclear or clean coal.

Not only is solar a logistical issue, but it's not 100% green, either. It isn't producing greenhouse gases while generating electricity, but building solar panels is a nasty process.

Solar is overhyped. I vote nuclear power.

During the day when AC is running full blast is peak time for energy consumption and the high point for prices too. Off peak power is relatively cheap since large coal plants cannot be easily or quickly ramped down and nuclear can only be ramped down to a min level. In some markets like West Texas off peak power prices actually go negative at times. From a cost standpoint it is an ideal solution to generate your own solar power during peak hours and buy cheap off peak power from the grid. They could actually generate more power than needed during peak hours and sell some of the Power back to the market. If they really wanted to they could even go with wind to subsidize the solar at night. Wind isn't as commercially viable as solar in most parts of the country and I don't think FL is a particularly strong area for wind (except maybe along the coast).

The battery technology isn't there yet. Give it a decade or so and it might get there.

Nuclear is not a realistic option in the US at this time. That Tsunami in Japan essentially crippled what looked like a potential nuclear renaissance. It didn't help that natural gas prices dropped to below $3 per mmbtu last year. At those prices nobody is building coal or nuclear. Not likely to see more than a hand full of new nuclear plants in this country in the short to medium term.

Building solar panels may be environmentally unfriendly but you are talking about panels that will be used for 20 to 30 years of carbon free power.

 

[Goofyernmost]

During the day when AC is running full blast is peak time for energy consumption and the high point for prices too. Off peak power is relatively cheap since large coal plants cannot be easily or quickly ramped down and nuclear can only be ramped down to a min level. In some markets like West Texas off peak power prices actually go negative at times. From a cost standpoint it is an ideal solution to generate your own solar power during peak hours and buy cheap off peak power from the grid. They could actually generate more power than needed during peak hours and sell some of the Power back to the market. If they really wanted to they could even go with wind to subsidize the solar at night. Wind isn't as commercially viable as solar in most parts of the country and I don't think FL is a particularly strong area for wind (except maybe along the coast).

The battery technology isn't there yet. Give it a decade or so and it might get there.

Nuclear is not a realistic option in the US at this time. That Tsunami in Japan essentially crippled what looked like a potential nuclear renaissance. It didn't help that natural gas prices dropped to below $3 per mmbtu last year. At those prices nobody is building coal or nuclear. Not likely to see more than a hand full of new nuclear plants in this country in the short to medium term.

Building solar panels may be environmentally unfriendly but you are talking about panels that will be used for 20 to 30 years of carbon free power.

Which in my mind is a major mistake and we or our kids will pay dearly for our nuclear panic. You make a very logical argument for solar power, but I don't think that is the reason why Disney hasn't expanded the Monorail system. I think I said in this thread someplace that hassle is the governing factor in here. I'm sure transportation has daily nightmares about hundreds of people stuck high up on a monorail beam for hours while they move a broken down train out of the way. I don't think they want anything to do with a non-ground based mode of transportation. The only way that they could possibly get rid of the nightmare would be to install catwalks on all the rails so that they can systematically have ways to get people from up in the air back to the ground. I think overall they are already cheaper to run then the buses but without the flexibility that the buses give them would prevent any further construction. With the massive consumption that WDW uses on a daily basis I really doubt that there would be any excess to sell back. I'm not even sure that they can generate enough to even run a Monorail train, much less a fleet of them all day, everyday.

Even the solar idea would require power storage cells to facilitate night usage and cloudy day usage or, as you said, buy off the grid. That alone would be a huge expense. Just don't think it will ever happen and if in the next twenty years they still even have Monorails, we will need to be thankful. Look what happened to Skyway. If I were to guess they will all be replaced by light rail maintaining the same routes that they have now, but ground based, nothing really new.

 

[GoofGoof]

Which in my mind is a major mistake and we or our kids will pay dearly for our nuclear panic. You make a very logical argument for solar power, but I don't think that is the reason why Disney hasn't expanded the Monorail system. I think I said in this thread someplace that hassle is the governing factor in here. I'm sure transportation has daily nightmares about hundreds of people stuck high up on a monorail beam for hours while they move a broken down train out of the way. I don't think they want anything to do with a non-ground based mode of transportation. They only way that they could possibly get rid of the nightmare would be to install catwalks on all the rails so that they can systematically have ways to get people from up in the air back to the ground. I think overall they are already cheaper to run then the buses but without the flexibility that the buses give them would prevent any further construction. With the massive consumption that WDW uses on a daily basis I really doubt that there would be any excess to sell back. I'm not even sure that they can generate enough to even run a Monorail train, much less a fleet of them all day, everyday.

Even the solar idea would require power storage cells to facilitate night usage and cloudy day usage or, as you said, buy off the grid. That alone would be a huge expense. Just don't think it will ever happen and if in the next twenty years they still even have Monorails, we will need to be thankful. Look what happened to Skyway. If I were to guess they will all be replaced by light rail maintaining the same routes that they have now, but ground based, nothing really new.

Solar at scale could provide enough power for the monorail no problem. The new solar installment at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia is capable of producing 3 MWs of power or enough to power about 500 average size homes. The bulk of the power is generated by panels which cover a section of the parking lot in front of the stadium. That section of parking is probably not even 10% of the size of the MK parking lot. That doesn't even account for all of the rooftop locations (hotels, rides, backstage buildings, etc...) where panels could be installed easily without even being visible to the public. The point is they have plenty of space to install enough solar to not only power the monorail, but power all of WDW during the day if they really wanted to.

I agree that we won't see a monorail expansion anytime soon, if ever. I don't see them taking down the current system, but they won't expand it either. Light rail makes a lot of sense. A loop between DTD, through EPCOT parking lot, to DHS and continuing to AK. They could have stops at SSR, OKW, BC/YC/BW, CSR, CBR and AK lodge cutting out busses for all of those resorts to DTD, EPCOT, DHS or AK. They would still need busses for some resorts, but it would cut back a lot.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Solar at scale could provide enough power for the monorail no problem. The new solar installment at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia is capable of producing 3 MWs of power or enough to power about 500 average size homes. The bulk of the power is generated by panels which cover a section of the parking lot in front of the stadium. That section of parking is probably not even 10% of the size of the MK parking lot. That doesn't even account for all of the rooftop locations (hotels, rides, backstage buildings, etc...) where panels could be installed easily without even being visible to the public. The point is they have plenty of space to install enough solar to not only power the monorail, but power all of WDW during the day if they really wanted to.

I agree that we won't see a monorail expansion anytime soon, if ever. I don't see them taking down the current system, but they won't expand it either. Light rail makes a lot of sense. A loop between DTD, through EPCOT parking lot, to DHS and continuing to AK. They could have stops at SSR, OKW, BC/YC/BW, CSR, CBR and AK lodge cutting out busses for all of those resorts to DTD, EPCOT, DHS or AK. They would still need busses for some resorts, but it would cut back a lot.

Well there's another problem. You will not see a rail connection between the parks and DTD for the same reasons that you don't see direct bus routes from there. The only way around that would be if they started charging for parking at DTD. Disney isn't going to tie up there retail parking spaces just to loose more money from parking fees.

I'll be honest here, I don't have anywhere near the knowledge of solar power and how it works that I should have, so I have no choice but to acknowledge that what you are saying about it is correct. I have no reason to doubt you.

 

[GoofGoof]

Well there's another problem. You will not see a rail connection between the parks and DTD for the same reasons that you don't see direct bus routes from there. The only way around that would be if they started charging for parking at DTD. Disney isn't going to tie up there retail parking spaces just to loose more money from parking fees.

I'll be honest here, I don't have anywhere near the knowledge of solar power and how it works that I should have to I have no choice but to acknowledge that what you are saying about it is correct. I have no reason to doubt you.

Simple solution, free parking at DTD for up to 3 hours or with validation from a DTD business. If you stay longer its $15 or whatever they charge these days at the parks.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Simple solution, free parking at DTD for up to 3 hours or with validation from a DTD business. If you stay longer its $15 or whatever they charge these days at the parks.

What would stop someone from just going to the nearest store in DTD and get the parking validated. Probably would take 10 minutes and they would have a free day of parking.

 

[tsaintc]

To me, the monorail system in WDW is a novelty, just another ride. In all honesty, the times I have stayed on the loop, I found them to be a rather poor choice of transportation. Seems like the thing would be leaving every time I stepped onto the platform, countless holds for traffic and standing room only most of the time. And, do not get me started about when it is down 'indefinitely'.... What a mess that can be.

 

[GoofGoof]

What would stop someone from just going to the nearest store in DTD and get the parking validated. Probably would take 10 minutes and they would have a free day of parking.

Validation at restaurants/stores with min purchase of $25. If someone wants to buy $25 worth of merchandise to beat a $15 parking fee then Disney wins. If they wanted to they could only validate at restaurants. I have also seen places charge for parking and give you a credit towards purchases. Pay $15 at the gate, get a voucher good for $15 worth of merchandise or food at DTD valid that day only.

 

[Florida_is_hot]

People on this board.... monorail, Monorail... Monorail.
Monorails will never happen but you may get more buses.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Validation at restaurants/stores with min purchase of $25. If someone wants to buy $25 worth of merchandise to beat a $15 parking fee then Disney wins. If they wanted to they could only validate at restaurants. I have also seen places charge for parking and give you a credit towards purchases. Pay $15 at the gate, get a voucher good for $15 worth of merchandise or food at DTD valid that day only.

If what you are saying could be done, I'd agree with you, however, retail is a whole different attitude then, say, theme parks. If you require people to purchase $15.00 to whatever to get free parking, it's almost looked at as a form of extortion. Pay now or pay later! It wouldn't take very long before no one was parking there because before they ever enter the "sales floor" they have committed to, at least, $15.00 in expense. That was tried for years at local shopping areas and it never has worked, ever! I know I would have made my absolute last trip to DTD if that were the case. I usually buy something when I'm there, but, I don't like the idea that if I don't it's going to cost me anyway.

 

[Magenta Panther]

The Magical Express bus is ace. But the regular busses...meh. I love love love the Monorail though. I too wish it went all over WDW. One of the best things Walt and company ever built.

 

[Thrill]

Which in my mind is a major mistake and we or our kids will pay dearly for our nuclear panic. You make a very logical argument for solar power, but I don't think that is the reason why Disney hasn't expanded the Monorail system. I think I said in this thread someplace that hassle is the governing factor in here. I'm sure transportation has daily nightmares about hundreds of people stuck high up on a monorail beam for hours while they move a broken down train out of the way. I don't think they want anything to do with a non-ground based mode of transportation. The only way that they could possibly get rid of the nightmare would be to install catwalks on all the rails so that they can systematically have ways to get people from up in the air back to the ground. I think overall they are already cheaper to run then the buses but without the flexibility that the buses give them would prevent any further construction. With the massive consumption that WDW uses on a daily basis I really doubt that there would be any excess to sell back. I'm not even sure that they can generate enough to even run a Monorail train, much less a fleet of them all day, everyday.

Even the solar idea would require power storage cells to facilitate night usage and cloudy day usage or, as you said, buy off the grid. That alone would be a huge expense. Just don't think it will ever happen and if in the next twenty years they still even have Monorails, we will need to be thankful. Look what happened to Skyway. If I were to guess they will all be replaced by light rail maintaining the same routes that they have now, but ground based, nothing really new.

I agree fully on nuclear. Modern reactors are far safer and slightly more efficient than the older ones, and the next generation of nuclear power should be incredible (traveling wave reactors, thorium salt reactors, etc.).

That said, solar (at least in Florida) would not be too bad in terms of power usage. I question its cost-friendliness, but WDW is one of the best spots there is to do it. At night, buy off the grid, and during the day, they could even sell back (because of the difference in electricity consumption of air conditioning, this is practical).

As for the monorail, they might be cheaper to run than buses. Buses and monorails both need maintenance, but monorail tracks need extra maintenance; yes, roads are maintained, but whether or not Disney runs buses, the roads will always be there. From an energy standpoint, monorails are way cheaper, but it takes a lot of money to even start a monorail system, where Disney could simply transition to electric buses and have a green transportation system without laying out $700 million for 20 miles of track. And like I said before, tracks are bad logistically. In WDW, roads sometimes get crowded, and you can usually go around them. However, monorail tracks sometimes get crowded, and you can never go around.

Stranding people on a track would be a nightmare situation, and I believe it has actually happened once or twice, but that actually isn't that bad for a system that's been running for 40 years. Consider the amount of bus accidents which have happened in recent years, and monorails might be safer.

 

[luv]

Simple solution, free parking at DTD for up to 3 hours or with validation from a DTD business. If you stay longer its $15 or whatever they charge these days at the parks.

Do the AP people get free parking or would they be expected to pay, too?

 

[RedBaron]

I did not vote in the poll since I wanted to vote for all 3. I wish they would expand the bus fleet since the last time I rode it was an epic fail and it took forever no matter where I was going. We have done the driving ourselves and it was great. I also wish they would expand the monorail, but that will probably never happen.

 

[GoofGoof]

Do the AP people get free parking or would they be expected to pay, too?

There would be no reason to charge anyone who already gets free parking with their AP (not sure if all APs include parking or if some don't). They would have no incentive to park at DTD to beat the parking fee since it would be free at the parks and resorts too. If there are some APs that don't include parking those people would fall under the same rules as anyone without an AP.

Another simple solution would be to just check APs or resort room keys at the entrance to the light rail. If you aren't staying on property and don't have an AP you can't take the transportation from DTD. Then anyone can park for free as long as they want.

 

[Timon]

Expanded Monorail Transportation Ticketing

• Disney Hotel Guests would use their room key to access the monorails, valid during their stay.

• Any one can buy a Transportation Ticket for the day. This ticket would be priced that two tickets exceeds the theme park parking lot charge making cheaper to park in the theme park lots. The more people in the car the more obvious it is to park in the theme park lot. Theme Park Tickets are good for transportation initiated from a theme park the day used.

• Non-Disney, on-property hotels can participate (contract) to include transportation in their packages with compatible room keys good only for the days of stay.

Disney can do a monorail if they want to, old school Disney thought it was worth it. I find it hard to believe the maintenance for 12 trains is more expensive than hundreds of buses which need replacing far more often than the monorails and staff to run them.

Back in the Pleasure Island hey days DTD used to gridlock with buses. I think this will happen again as Disney adds more and more buses and Disney Springs comes on line.

An East-West Line from DTD to AK is needed. I think the best resorts and parks are best served by multiple modes of transportation. Buses, Monorails, Boats, PRTs, Taxis, and Cars. Relying on one mode is asking for major problems.

Here's a dream - be kind.

East-West Line featuring Bombardier INNOVIA 300 trains 1000 people per train

PRT - This shows the Lake Buena Vista resorts loop and part of the Hotel Plaza loop
Also a canal redo to Typhoon Lagoon for LBV resort guests.

Yeah, yeah, I know, but it's fun to dream.