Monorail Expansion

[TimeTrip]

Originally posted by PeterAlt
Even monorails are a poor choice because they only go in loops

That is not true. There are monorail systems out there that have fast switching systems built into them to reduce the "loopiness", unlike the rather slow switches currently in place at WDW.

 

[PeterAlt]

Originally posted by TimeTrip
That is not true. There are monorail systems out there that have fast switching systems built into them to reduce the "loopiness", unlike the rather slow switches currently in place at WDW.

Really? If you can find a link for me, I would love to read up on it! That may be the solution!

If anyone has a creative urge, find a WDW property map and start drawing in new monorail routes on it with MS Paint or something like that. I want to see if any of us can come up with a route map that covers all four parks, the water parks, Downtown Disney, and as many resorts as possible, using less tracks per mile, using maximum efficiency, and fastest routes possible.

Using the swtitching technology, I'm going to see what I can come up with... when I get some free time.

One idea I have would be to expand the TTC station with a new route going to AKL, to Blizzard Beach, and then to AK. Another new route would go from the current EPCOT Future World station to the World Showcase Gateway, to the Disney Board Walk, to Disney-MGM Studios, looping back around with stops at the Swan/Dolphin and Yacht/Beach Club (this route would have an express that skips the resorts). Another route would start at the EPCOT/Future World hub and loop to Blizzard Beach and Downtown Disney.

 

[TimeTrip]

Its hard to find places that make elaborate uses of switches, but these seem like they have to have some sort of fast switching enabled to get the map route to work correctly.

http://jtaonthemove.com/service/sky/map/

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/LasVeg3.html

You may be able to find more at:
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Links.html

Heres an interesting page on monorail switches:
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/switch.html

I know I've certainly looked at different ways to run monorails around property. My latest scheme runs dual monorails from epcot to mgm to AK, then up above epcot to switches with lines that would run to the MK then those switches would also run dual rails back to epcot.

I think to keep on the side of practicality with this stuff, you have to allow people to transfer once to get to a major park. You can't run one monorail line to EVERYTHING......

 

[mrtoad]

Originally posted by PeterAlt
I don't know if this is the right group for this thread, but I want to talk about Disney transportation in place of a monorail system.

I know the company has spent a lot of money (no I can not define what "a lot of money" means) over the years to study expansion of the monoraIl system. Each study has showed that it would be prohibitably expensive (costing billions). So, after each study was concluded, expansion plans were scrapped.

Now, think of this: The bus system really is a drag and they're not fun... they really do not add to the Disney experience. Even the monorail system is a drag (i.e. to get from EPCOT to MK, you must transfer to a different train). So, my suggestion is to make the expeience fun, convienent, and high tech, so that people will be WILLING TO PAY for it!!!

Build a fast-moving peoplemover system that stops at each resort and each attraction within WDW property. The trains would go DIRECTLY to every destination (color coded trains go to different locations). There could be ride-through entertainment so that the experience seems like your on a theme park ride.

(1) Convenience -- Trains go directly to all locations and run 24/7 every 10-15 minutes.

(2) Speed -- Trains will travel at high speeds, never stopping for traffic lights and the like. A central computer controls each trains movements, preventing any accidents.

(3) Entertainment -- Trains would travel through show buildings, offering special effects, previews of park rides, and more.

These three elements would make park guests want to pay to ride ($10 a day?). The money collected, over time, might pay the cost for its construction.

Thoughts?

Sounds nice and all, but I'm sure Disney is adding in to your prices already payment for transportation.

Think about how much you are already paying to be there.

Besides, do you know what it would take to pull off what you are talking about. Making conections from all hotels to all parks, through pavillions as you mentioned. It would take forever (think about the "Big Dig" in Boston, it will be done any year now) You probably won't be around to enjoy it if they ever did something like that.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by MrPromey
One of the greatest expenses in conventional mass transit is the need for human operator. This is a major expense which for a city or for Disney costs millions of dollars a year. Modern light rail systems are typically automated and cost CONSIDERABLY less to operate as a result. They can also be run 24 hours a day with very little being added to the cost. To some degree they are also scalable since some trains can be diverted from one area to another to accommodate larger than normal crowds – like say a football game getting out downtown… The cost is a big reason for why Orange County is so interested. The only problem is that this system still must be supplemented by busses since the light rail can only have so many stops. Essentially, the way it would work is someone would take the high speed rails to go long distance (like across state) and then transfer to a monorail or above ground train for in county travel and then transfer to a light rail to get to more specific locations. This alone might be enough for younger healthy people which can and would want to walk several blocks to go on from there but for everyone else they would then need to transfer to a bus to get closer to their final destination in most cases. Orange County seems to be trying to get away with just the light rail though – probably to reduce maintenance and operational costs. The construction costs are considerable as is the cost of acquiring the land for the beams but there is state and federal government funding available to help cover these costs and there are several lucrative options for private investors when it comes to things like leasing out space in the stations to shops. These financial options are not open to Disney for obvious reasons but that isn’t the big issue in this discussion since money is apparently no object.

The problem for Disney with light rail is that it really isn’t scalable enough to easily accommodate the opening and closing of a park or the onset of heavy rain when everyone tries to leave. They could supplement the system currently in place but they probably could not effectively eliminate it. This would also add the need for at least one transfer or more than likely multiple transfers. It would make things cheap and easy for Disney during operation but it would make it confusing and time consuming for guests.

I believe that Disney was at one time looking at a system of smaller than average light rails that would travel on tracks allowing people to pick where they want to go and have the train automatically switch tracks to get them there without the need of transfers. Such a system has never been implemented on anything near the scale of what Disney would need though and the few implementations of it that are currently in place are not without flaws. In the case of Disney the number of trains that would be required to allow quick access for small groups of people all going to their own specific locations would be quite daunting and there would be delays while a line of these trains sat waiting to unload in the mornings and there would still be a huge line of people waiting to get on them at the end of the day. This kind of a system would also require quite a mess of track to make functional. They would almost have to duplicate the road layout complete with controlled intersections to make it workable. Costs aside, this would probably not be an attractive sight to most guests.

This site to site transportation still falls victim to what I said in my previous post. Disney cannot afford (and by afford I don’t mean money) to implement a system like this that has never been attempted on the scale that they need. If they build the whole thing and it doesn’t work right in practical implementation what do they do? They can run tests and senerios but the human factor is the big wild card. If it doesn’t work they can’t abandon it and they can’t just re-theme it and open it as “Stich’s Big Waste of Time”. :lookaroun If they are to replace the busses with a completely different system it must be a system that is proven and is more efficient, scalable, and reliable than what they have now. Whatever they choose it really must meet all of these criteria. Otherwise it is doing nothing to help the system or it is making things worse. This type of light rail system at this time could not fit those criteria.

This isn’t really going anywhere though because people are already rehashing what has already been discussed in the large thread that is over a year old which is also on this front page right now so I’m not going to even bother discussing it anymore. It seems like people around here would rather play “if I rulled the world” than realistic about any of this. Everyone wants a track solution cause I guess it isn’t “magical” unless it can only go forward and reverse.

For those of us who realize that Disney does in fact actually operate in the real world let me bring finances back into the mix and present you with a strong dose of reality: Which would you rather have?: Splash Mountain, Tower of Terror, RnR, Test Track, Mission Space, Mickey’s Philarhmagic, Soar’n over (whatever), Expedition, and probably the next two to four E-ticket attractions to come down the pipe or a new transportation system along the lines of what many here seem to want? I ask because that is the kind of real world money we are talking about. As someone else said none of us have the money to do this kind of thing. My point is that this kind of thing isn’t chump change for Disney, either.

Still if money is no object and the sky truly is the limit I expect transporters. There would be no lines, people could be beamed directly from their room to the boarding area of their favorite rides and there would be no need to construct new tracks or roads to handle the traffic. It isn’t any more unrealistic that a lot of other peoples expectations.

:sohappy:

 

[Lovecraft]

Mickhyperion is thinking along the correct lines.

Instead of reasons for why it can't be done, Walt Disney would come up with solutions because he already had a reason in mind for why it SHOULD be done, accountants be damned.

p.s. if accountants were really so great with making money rather than "accounting" for it, they'd all be rich, and they aren't.

Accountants should, in my opinion, be utilized for precisly the thing they were schooled, accounting for money, not controlling it and certainly not for "making" it.

--Lovecraft

 

[Invero]

In regards to switches... We have a fast switch... however, in order for it to be fast, you have to do a Hot switch... (ie: beam remains energized during the switch).

By rule (and I seriously doubt this will ever change), Disney performs cold switches. Trains get positioned, power killed, switch moved, power resored, trains get clearance to slowly move through switch, trains position themselves once again, power killed, switch moved, power resored, normal visual. A time consuming process, no doubt. But, the safe choice.

 

[garyhoov]

How many people have paid the $10 a day to get a "preferred" room? I would certainly pay at least as much for a fast, fun trip to the parks.

 

[TURKEY]

Originally posted by Lovecraft
Mickhyperion is thinking along the correct lines.

Instead of reasons for why it can't be done, Walt Disney would come up with solutions because he already had a reason in mind for why it SHOULD be done, accountants be damned.

p.s. if accountants were really so great with making money rather than "accounting" for it, they'd all be rich, and they aren't.

Accountants should, in my opinion, be utilized for precisly the thing they were schooled, accounting for money, not controlling it and certainly not for "making" it.

--Lovecraft

:wave: :wave: :wave:

Goodbye WDW.

 

[WDWFAN4LIFE]

I for one like the buses.

Don't get me wrong I think there is room for improvement. But if we got bus only lanes and some cool themed buses like they have at TDR then I think it would all be good.

While the monorail is a magical way to get someone it has now become slow and ineffiecient. Sure a new monorail would be great now, but it would get the same current problems as the exisiting system.

 

[DisneyJill]

I don't know why there would have to be a stop at EVERY attraction and EVERY resort. Couldn't you be dropped off at IASW and walk to PPF? Or for that matter...why does there need to be a monorail system in the parks? I think the one that drops you off at the front is fine. And...couldn't there only be one stop for Y&BC, BW, Swan and Dolphin? We get off at one of the others all the time if we're the last on the bus loop or want to enjoy the evening. Maybe it's just me, but expanding the monorail to include every last little thing seems really impractical. I would love to see the Studios and AK linked to the current system if possible, but every teeny tiny thing on property? Is that even necessary when we have little things called feet? :hammer:

 

[Scooter]

I have a simple solution for expanding the monorails to Animal Kingdom and Disney/MGM that would not only NOT cost Disney a dime but instead would MAKE Disney money and it would not involve Guests to pay anything either.

Just install TVS in the Monorail cars that show nothing but advertisements from other companys. Also install Little Billboards in the Monorails like they have on City buses.

Big companys like Fuji and Coke and Frito-Lay would pay MILLIONS of dollars to have their products pitched to a captive audience like Monorail riders.

While I know this compromises Disneys standards, as long as there aren't any Cigarette or Alchohol advertisements allowed, I personally wouldn't mind a few billboard advertisments here and there if it would get me off those buses and onto a Expanded Monorail system. :sohappy:

 

[thedisneyfan]

Sounds like an interesting idea Scooter. But I don't know if Disney or its visitors would like the experience of being bombarded with non-stop non-Disney related commercials on their way to the parks.

 

[ImSweetPea]

Well.. You have an good idea.. but I would never pay for it!! Call me crazy.. But I have been to disney many of times.. and its never bothered me waiting for any Disney Transportation! But then again we have all experienced things differenttly at Disney!! Maybe something will come of you idea!! They could keep things the way they are.. and so something for the people that don't want to wait and they could pay.. hey ya never know
!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scooter]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Sounds like an interesting idea Scooter. But I don't know if Disney or its visitors would like the experience of being bombarded with non-stop non-Disney related commercials on their way to the parks.

While I agree this would be anoying, The guests get bombarded with advertising on all the Sponsered Attractions already...they just don't realize it!:lol:

Example: Illuminations used to have that annoying lady saying: "Because GE brings good things to life...Illuminations, Reflections of Earth will begin in 30/20/10/5 minutes!!:lol:

How many times are the letters AT & T displayed during the Spaceship Earth Ride? I don't know but I bet it's plenty! :lol:

 

[ImSweetPea]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you dont walk out of there saying.. VERIZON VERIZON!!!!! A T & T is everywhere!!!!!

 

[josh_e_washie]

I don't know.....
It seems as though that could ruin the magic...I mean the ads in the busses are mostly for disney related things, right? Such as new attractions, ABC shows and new movies or broadway shows. I don't think it would be a good idea. Besides, if this new line would be made, how would it connect to the TTC? I mean it has to cross other monorail lines to Epcot! Not to mention I think the ride would be pretty long........
I like the monorail just the way it is!

 

[MonorailGreen]

Monorail

I think that the expansion, if any, should take riders from TTC to AK... nowhere else!! Then, Disney should add another unique mode of transportation from AK to the Disney-MGM Studios =) Epcot and MGM have the boat and although it takes long you don't have to ride in a BUS :hurl: AK is the only place that is really isolated on the WDW complex... maybe a skyline or something could go from AK to the Studios... so that guests can get different types of transportation throughout the WDW Resort :king:

 

[marchofthecards]

Billions - How so?

:brick:

Hey folks!

Just wondering where the cost of billions comes from to just update the monorail? Yes its no overnight task, but I can't see how it is a major operation either.

Parks are built in 2/3 years now with greater feats. Under Walt's direction, Orange Groves and Beetroot fields have been turned into Magic Kingdoms. (The Beetroot field was Paris if ur wondering)...

It means that a route (best fit) needs planning to link up the other areas of the resort (MGM, AK, Downtown Disney etc etc), those great big concrete stands made plus blocks to form rails, a bit of a repair on existing track where needed, and a start to replace the current Monorail mark, to the one of Tokyo (or better), (you know with the Mickey windows...) but this can be done gradually. And also a gradual refurb of the monorail stations/platforms etc...

I see millions, but not billions?????

What about new bendy buses for WDW for capacity, this would effect the amount of buses to be scheduled on, and would reduce costs.

Its not much of an idea, but it all helps, but how about WDW have cycle paths, and cycles to be readily available for hire? I would certainly consider biking my way around WDW. Not for everyone, but its an idea!!!

I cant help wonder that this is not their priority at the moment. I think heads are being put together over EPCOT. Though I may be wrong!

Later !!!

Simes

 

[Invero]

Not billions... just one billion. Actually, probably about 850 million to about 1 billion would be a good approximation.


Here's why:

Beamway can cost $75-100 million per mile.
Trains can cost $25 million each.
Then you have to add stations, maintenance facilities, switches, and anything else extra.