Miscellaneous Tokyo Thoughts

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I found it interesting that Disney did their first feasibility study for a park in Europe about 20 years before DLP opened.

Also that part about Ron Miller's ideas for the company and its 5-year plan that Eisner took claim of without modifying much.
I knew about Europe (was lucky once to hear Frank speak in person) but the discussion regarding Ron just furthers my growing dislike of Roy E. The more I learn the more he comes across as shrewd but petty, ousting is cousin-in-law because he wasn’t in the spotlight. In some ways I can understand his dislike of shifting to the parks (a business that initially strained his father’s relationship with his uncle that then consumed his final years) but he also successfully created the narrative that the parks were bringing down the company, despite their profits keeping the company profitable. Even years later with Save Disney he put up no fight when the once unacceptable Iger is chosen as Eisner’s replacement.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I knew about Europe (was lucky once to hear Frank speak in person) but the discussion regarding Ron just furthers my growing dislike of Roy E. The more I learn the more he comes across as shrewd but petty, ousting is cousin-in-law because he wasn’t in the spotlight. In some ways I can understand his dislike of shifting to the parks (a business that initially strained his father’s relationship with his uncle that then consumed his final years) but he also successfully created the narrative that the parks were bringing down the company, despite their profits keeping the company profitable. Even years later with Save Disney he put up no fight when the once unacceptable Iger is chosen as Eisner’s replacement.

I have a growing dislike of Jeffery Katzenberg, but it sounds like many in Hollywood do.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I have a growing dislike of Jeffery Katzenberg, but it sounds like many in Hollywood do.
Have you read The Men Who Would Be King by Nicole Laporte? It’s a history of DreamWorks SKG but definitely gives more of the Katzenberg craziness. Now I’m totally off to Quibi.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Have you read The Men Who Would Be King by Nicole Laporte? It’s a history of DreamWorks SKG but definitely gives more of the Katzenberg craziness. Now I’m totally off to Quibi.

No, but given the number of stories about him, Katzenberg craziness sounds like a bottomless well.

Also I never heard of Quibi until people started making fun of it, which is always a good sign.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
I knew about Europe (was lucky once to hear Frank speak in person) but the discussion regarding Ron just furthers my growing dislike of Roy E. The more I learn the more he comes across as shrewd but petty, ousting is cousin-in-law because he wasn’t in the spotlight. In some ways I can understand his dislike of shifting to the parks (a business that initially strained his father’s relationship with his uncle that then consumed his final years) but he also successfully created the narrative that the parks were bringing down the company, despite their profits keeping the company profitable. Even years later with Save Disney he put up no fight when the once unacceptable Iger is chosen as Eisner’s replacement.
Way off-topic: The more we hear from retired animators and Imagineers, the more I’m intrigued by a Disney under Ron Miller. The Disney Channel, Epcot expansions, Touchstone, Little Mermaid, Roger Rabbit, and even the Great Movie Ride (as a proposed Epcot pavilion) were Ron Miller concepts. Miller quietly nurtured Tim Burton’s craziness too, giving us the NBC poem (‘82) and original Frankenweenie (‘84).

I know Don Bluth famously hated how Miller was holding back The Black Cauldron, but when you watch it, you can see that Miller was right: WDFA wasn’t ready to tackle that story when they did it. (Also, I’m not a fan of the majority of Bluth’s work anyway, and I question his judgment.)

There’s no doubt Eisner/Wells were more suited to the culture of the ‘80s and early ‘90s, and they definitely saved the film division. Miller’s live-action movie portfolio doesn’t support his case at all.

But the parks did well under Card Walker and Ron Miller, and that’s the era which set the standards for TDR. We’ll never know for sure whether the American parks would still be at that quality level if Eisner hadn’t tumbled into Pressler, Iger, and Chapek; but an educated guess is yes, WDW and DLR would be more like TDR.
 
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Robbiem

Well-Known Member
Way off-topic: The more we hear from retired animators and Imagineers, the more I’m intrigued by a Disney under Ron Miller. The Disney Channel, Epcot expansions, Touchstone, Little Mermaid, Roger Rabbit, and even the Great Movie Ride (as a proposed Epcot pavilion) were Ron Miller concepts. Miller quietly nurtured Tim Burton’s craziness too, giving us the NBC poem (‘82) and original Frankenweenie (‘84).

I know Don Bluth famously hated how Miller was holding back The Black Cauldron, but when you watch it, you can see that Miller was right: WDFA wasn’t ready to tackle that story when they did it. (Also, I’m not a fan of the majority of Bluth’s work anyway, and I question his judgment.)

There’s no doubt Eisner/Wells were more suited to the culture of the ‘80s and early ‘90s, and they definitely saved the film division. Miller’s live-action movie portfolio doesn’t support his case at all.

But the parks did well under Card Walker and Ron Miller, and that’s the era which set the standards for TDR. We’ll never know for sure whether the American parks would still be at that quality level if Eisner hadn’t tumbled into Pressler, Iger, and Chapek; but an educated guess is yes, WDW and DLR would be more like TDR.

this is one of the great what ifs. A lot of early Eisner/ Wells built on Ron Miller and Card Walker. Here is my take

live action movies Miller knew Disney Movies had to get away from its clean cut image in the 80s and founded touchstone to move into more adult fare. From what I’ve read Miller may have brought George Lucas into Disney perhaps in some sort of similar creative role to Lasseter after pixar. Would the studio have improved - probably but maybe not to the degree under Eisner and wells.
Animation - this is more tricky. Miller bought the rights to Roger Rabbit but from the early post Miller fare (Basil, Oliver etc) we might have had a continuation of post Walt safe features every few years rather than the second golden age.
Parks - Almost certainly the standard would have been kept high. EPCOT would have been built out but probably no DHS or Animal Kingdom. Walt Disney World probably wouldn’t have seen the massive 80/90s expansion so would probably have been more like Tokyo smaller but higher quality. Euro Disney might have been built somewhere else and may have been more successful. Disneyland would event have become a resort with a second gate but probably more along the lines of westcot. We would probably have gotten the ski resort as a final era walt plan.
Other - Disney stores were an idea waiting to happen but maybe in partnership with another retailer. Broadway similarly but probably based on walt era classics like Poppins.

overall Disney would probably be more niche. Smaller but higher quality product, a mac rather than a PC. Would it have survived or would it have been bought out by a bigger media company? No way of knowing but possibly more likely for a smaller company
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
this is one of the great what ifs. A lot of early Eisner/ Wells built on Ron Miller and Card Walker. Here is my take

live action movies Miller knew Disney Movies had to get away from its clean cut image in the 80s and founded touchstone to move into more adult fare. From what I’ve read Miller may have brought George Lucas into Disney perhaps in some sort of similar creative role to Lasseter after pixar. Would the studio have improved - probably but maybe not to the degree under Eisner and wells.
Animation - this is more tricky. Miller bought the rights to Roger Rabbit but from the early post Miller fare (Basil, Oliver etc) we might have had a continuation of post Walt safe features every few years rather than the second golden age.
Parks - Almost certainly the standard would have been kept high. EPCOT would have been built out but probably no DHS or Animal Kingdom. Walt Disney World probably wouldn’t have seen the massive 80/90s expansion so would probably have been more like Tokyo smaller but higher quality. Euro Disney might have been built somewhere else and may have been more successful. Disneyland would event have become a resort with a second gate but probably more along the lines of westcot. We would probably have gotten the ski resort as a final era walt plan.
Other - Disney stores were an idea waiting to happen but maybe in partnership with another retailer. Broadway similarly but probably based on walt era classics like Poppins.

overall Disney would probably be more niche. Smaller but higher quality product, a mac rather than a PC. Would it have survived or would it have been bought out by a bigger media company? No way of knowing but possibly more likely for a smaller company

This is a fascinating exercise (in the wrong thread, haha).

Since Eisner birthed Iger, and Iger’s Disney simply purchased other IPs and stripped them of originality, today’s generic entertainment landscape might not exist in this parallel universe. ;)

With new documentaries shedding light on how Ashman/Menkin almost walked because of Katz and Eisner, animation may very well have had a renaissance anyway. According to “Waking Sleepy Beauty,” which you can watch on Disney+, the animators had to beg to complete TLM. Then it was a hit, and Katz/Eisner were — ahem — magically obsessed with animation. But K’s spoiled-brattiness and Eisner’s cookie-cutter cost-control techniques caught up to them within a few short years.

Eisner was good for the parks for about nine years. His primary advantage over Iger is that he respected the classics and didn’t try to replace them—even if the reason was simply merch sales. Would Iger approve Fantasia Gardens mini-golf or a World of Disney room devoted to the Silly Symphonies? No, we know he spent most of his tenure trying to bury Walt’s heritage and convince everyone Disney had created the MCU (which began at Paramount). He outright replaced Walt’s classics and even Mickey Mouse. He attempted to sell the parks.

He behaved like a typical corporate leader who has no personal connection to the company and simply wants to improve the stock price. He made Disney financially successful, but the original “Walt Disney Productions” and Eisner’s “Walt Disney Company” are dead. And sadly, online forums are full of fans who celebrate this new era because they sincerely believe the cookie-cutter, over-marketed product from their childhood is “Disney.”

Hindsight is 20/20, and Disney’s ‘80s–‘90s history is so convoluted that we’ll never know what would’ve happened.

However, a few things are certain: by the time Roy Jr. ousted Miller to supposedly protect the company, Disney had already recovered from its dark period in the ‘70s and was heading upwards. Eisner/Wells definitely saved the film division and briefly benefited the parks. Yet because of Eisner’s second half, Iger’s conglomerate, and Chapek’s cost cuts — if Disney owned TDR outright, in 2020 the glory days of Disney theme parks wouldn’t exist anywhere anymore.

Good thing we still have OLC and TDR.
 
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Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Is there a reason why Cinderella Castle was built smaller/shorter in TDL?

A news report on New Fantasyland gives a height of 51m for the castle, or 167 ft. That's 22 ft. shorter than the Florida version.

I did an overlay of two blueprints (one for Tokyo, one for Florida) and it did show a difference in height, although it didn't look like 22 ft.

When you see it in person it looks the same, and spaces like the interior corridor and rear balcony look the same too.

I feel like Magic Kingdom's basement is part of the difference in height and not the castle itself. The utilidors run underneath it.
 

Tyler161

Member
I had a couple of curious thoughts-

Disneysea is beginning to wrap around the non-Disney hotels. Does OLC own the properties and lease them up? One day will the company take over the resorts there, or do the hotel chains own that land?

Also, how does ikspiari hold up compared to other downtown Disney-like places? Does it get updated ever? Is it dated?
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
I had a couple of curious thoughts-

Disneysea is beginning to wrap around the non-Disney hotels. Does OLC own the properties and lease them up? One day will the company take over the resorts there, or do the hotel chains own that land?

Also, how does ikspiari hold up compared to other downtown Disney-like places? Does it get updated ever? Is it dated?
I wouldn't say dated is the right word, but Ikspiari does feel more like a normal mall/shopping area than any of the others (albeit a very nice mall/shopping area), with the Disney Store being pretty much the only Disney presence, which I'm sure will be a negative for some people.

It's definitely confusingly laid out and not particularly intuitive to navigate. I imagine you'd have to go there quite a bit to not get turned around.

Shinseido has tons of TDR entertainment CDs and Blu-rays to buy if you're in to that sort of thing, but nothing else seemed particularly notable to me shopwise (granted, I'm not the target demographic).

I'd say it's easily better than Downtown Disney or Disney Village but I don't know how I would rank it compared to Disney Springs or Disneytown.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Reading my copy of Boundless Realm now and it goes into great detail at the beginning about the significance of Haunted Mansion's location in Liberty Square, both physically and culturally (taken from the author's previous blog posts).

As much as I love the Tokyo version, it's location within the park is undeniably bad, despite being in roughly the same spot as its Magic Kingdom counterpart. It's so much better to have it on a hill, secluded from other offerings and along the river. I'm not sure if it looked better before Splash Mountain was built, it's hard to find pictures or video online.

In general, I wish more of Liberty Square had made it's way across the Pacific. All we got was the top half of the riverboat dock and Mansion.
 

BayouShack

Well-Known Member
Reading my copy of Boundless Realm now and it goes into great detail at the beginning about the significance of Haunted Mansion's location in Liberty Square, both physically and culturally (taken from the author's previous blog posts).

As much as I love the Tokyo version, it's location within the park is undeniably bad, despite being in roughly the same spot as its Magic Kingdom counterpart. It's so much better to have it on a hill, secluded from other offerings and along the river. I'm not sure if it looked better before Splash Mountain was built, it's hard to find pictures or video online.

In general, I wish more of Liberty Square had made it's way across the Pacific. All we got was the top half of the riverboat dock and Mansion.

There exist concept plans of a park with the exact same layout that was realized, but with Haunted Mansion instead in the then future site of Thunder Mountain.

I wish I could find the plans! But it seemed close to finalized, suggesting a last minute move.
 

BasiltheBatLord

Well-Known Member
Not sure if this was announced previously or if I'm just now noticing it, but TDL is not doing HM Holiday or CBJ Jingle Bell Jamboree this year.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Here's a side-by-side comparison I made of MK and TDL from roughly the same time to compare the two:

TDL vs MK.jpg
 

BayouShack

Well-Known Member
Reading my copy of Boundless Realm now and it goes into great detail at the beginning about the significance of Haunted Mansion's location in Liberty Square, both physically and culturally (taken from the author's previous blog posts).

As much as I love the Tokyo version, it's location within the park is undeniably bad, despite being in roughly the same spot as its Magic Kingdom counterpart. It's so much better to have it on a hill, secluded from other offerings and along the river. I'm not sure if it looked better before Splash Mountain was built, it's hard to find pictures or video online.

In general, I wish more of Liberty Square had made it's way across the Pacific. All we got was the top half of the riverboat dock and Mansion.

There exist concept plans of a park with the exact same layout that was realized, but with Haunted Mansion instead in the then future site of Thunder Mountain.

I wish I could find the plans! But it seemed close to finalized, suggesting a last minute move.

I found what I was looking for!

EB087582-0775-40CB-8279-B092E3489FC0.jpeg


58C068E9-1943-479E-B624-AB8AE52C5181.jpeg


34CFDE0C-995D-48E6-B3D8-BF100E1327D5.jpeg


34491B45-D407-4A20-BB67-6D1028797D64.jpeg


Source:
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
A Haunted Mansion with elevator stretching rooms AND the additional WDW scenes would have been unbeatable (granted, the Tokyo version is still the best one currently operating, but it would have been a nice plussing nonetheless).

If only...
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
A Haunted Mansion with elevator stretching rooms AND the additional WDW scenes would have been unbeatable (granted, the Tokyo version is still the best one currently operating, but it would have been a nice plussing nonetheless).

If only...
Magic Kingdom almost had elevators as well.
 

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