Mark VIII Monorail Concepts (again not sure where to post)

[s8film40]

Now, I have found some interior shots of the Las Vegas monorails, and they are not walk through design, but they do have side seating instead of the current MK VI seating.

Yeah the Vegas trains have a more open cabin. They have one larger door on each side as opposed to two and seating is only on the perimeter. The Mark VI trains were designed around having a seating only mode. I don't think this was used very much at all and shortly into the lives of the Mark VI trains all of the fold down seat were permanently locked. Starting from the concept of designing a always standing option train the perimeter seating just makes far more sense.

 

[Phantom Mickey]

Yeah the Vegas trains have a more open cabin. They have one larger door on each side as opposed to two and seating is only on the perimeter. The Mark VI trains were designed around having a seating only mode. I don't think this was used very much at all and shortly into the lives of the Mark VI trains all of the fold down seat were permanently locked. Starting from the concept of designing a always standing option train the perimeter seating just makes far more sense.

That fold down seating is a thought, as well as the perimeter seating, HOWEVER, the MK iv and MK vi trains carry an incredible amount of guests and the Disney trains have always had ample seating, I assume for older or impaired riders. The MK vi trains were the first that actually considered stand up riders, and that was limited to the door access areas.
There is such a large number of people getting on and getting off that standing riders may not be a great idea. I don't know. The only stand up and hold on riding I have done has been on the Disney Buses but again, the numbers getting on and off depends on the stops so the numbers are generally low for those boarding or disembarking.

Unless someone can show in numbers that the present seating does not work, I am guessing the MK viii trains will have similar seating as that of the MK vi

 

[s8film40]

That fold down seating is a thought, as well as the perimeter seating, HOWEVER, the MK iv and MK vi trains carry an incredible amount of guests and the Disney trains have always had ample seating, I assume for older or impaired riders. The MK vi trains were the first that actually considered stand up riders, and that was limited to the door access areas.
There is such a large number of people getting on and getting off that standing riders may not be a great idea. I don't know. The only stand up and hold on riding I have done has been on the Disney Buses but again, the numbers getting on and off depends on the stops so the numbers are generally low for those boarding or disembarking.

Unless someone can show in numbers that the present seating does not work, I am guessing the MK viii trains will have similar seating as that of the MK vi

That was kind of my point the current seating configuration is based around that fold down seating that isn’t used. Taking that center row bench out and moving the seats to the side you only lose two seats but gain substantial standing room.

 

[Phantom Mickey]

That was kind of my point the current seating configuration is based around that fold down seating that isn’t used. Taking that center row bench out and moving the seats to the side you only lose two seats but gain substantial standing room.

I suppose so, but really, do you want all those people standing? I realize that the guest numbers have outgrown the monorails capacity with every MK series, but having standing guests can create a bigger problem. And remember, not everyone can raise thier arm to hold onto a handle or bar for stability, short people cannot reach at all. And unless there are designated areas for handicap vehicles and strollers, stand up parking will become a bigger problem.

I keep thinking back at the large numbers of people moving through the monorails. Almost to the like of a cattle car. Stand up has not been preferred in the last 3 MK models that I know of and it has to have been influenced by the guest movement and station boarding and disbarking. I have actually thought it over a bit, and I have not come up with a good scenario where standing riders would work well. Then again, you have to think that in the evening, you have a train load of tired hot sweaty guests that want to sit for the ride until they arrive at the TTC to head home. I don't have the numbers but Disney does. Then again, if the MKvi smells as bad as Ive been told, maybe Disney doesn't have their finger on the problem as well as I'd hoped. Time will tell.

 

[s8film40]

I suppose so, but really, do you want all those people standing? I realize that the guest numbers have outgrown the monorails capacity with every MK series, but having standing guests can create a bigger problem. And remember, not everyone can raise thier arm to hold onto a handle or bar for stability, short people cannot reach at all. And unless there are designated areas for handicap vehicles and strollers, stand up parking will become a bigger problem.

I keep thinking back at the large numbers of people moving through the monorails. Almost to the like of a cattle car. Stand up has not been preferred in the last 3 MK models that I know of and it has to have been influenced by the guest movement and station boarding and disbarking. I have actually thought it over a bit, and I have not come up with a good scenario where standing riders would work well. Then again, you have to think that in the evening, you have a train load of tired hot sweaty guests that want to sit for the ride until they arrive at the TTC to head home. I don't have the numbers but Disney does. Then again, if the MKvi smells as bad as Ive been told, maybe Disney doesn't have their finger on the problem as well as I'd hoped. Time will tell.

I have the numbers here they are feel free to dig in and analyze them if you want:
Mark VI WDW-

Innovia 200 Las Vegas-

Keep in mind if you compare those the Vegas train is 4 cars and the WDW train is 6. Really to me it's not about capacity though it's more about having an open flow. As I suggested if they remove the center bench seat they only lose two seats but they open up the whole car. As an example of why I think this is important, many times I've seen people rushing to get in a train without the time to pick and choose which door to go in. Once the doors close often people will be standing on one side while seats are available on the other. So opening that space up while it would eliminate two seats could increase the number of passengers who are actually able to get a seat.

 

[Phantom Mickey]

I have the numbers here they are feel free to dig in and analyze them if you want:
Mark VI WDW-
View attachment 285447

Innovia 200 Las Vegas-
View attachment 285448

Keep in mind if you compare those the Vegas train is 4 cars and the WDW train is 6. Really to me it's not about capacity though it's more about having an open flow. As I suggested if they remove the center bench seat they only lose two seats but they open up the whole car. As an example of why I think this is important, many times I've seen people rushing to get in a train without the time to pick and choose which door to go in. Once the doors close often people will be standing on one side while seats are available on the other. So opening that space up while it would eliminate two seats could increase the number of passengers who are actually able to get a seat.

Good point!
It is tough comparing the Vegas trains with the MK vi, at least I think so. Even though the Vegas trains are supposed to be based on the MK VI, I think that comparison is more to the suspension rather than coach capacity. Being wider, the vegas trains have the advantage.
Guests rushing in to pick a door is mute, no matter where they go, they arrive at the same place. As I recall, the rush is more to find a coach that has vacant seats or even just be able to get aboard.
I don't see the MK Viii's being made wider, if needed for standing passengers, and increasing passenger numbers is going to increase weight. I know the DisneyLand trains have no extra power for accessories, and the WDW trains I believe have already had a power upgrade for the MKvi's.
-- Are you thinking of a different type of seating along the cabin wall? The current seats are roughly 3 foot deep, two across are 6 feet. Aren't the cabins about 8 foot across??
-- I believe they have to comply to emergency exit times also. So the coaches need to be able to quickly have guests exit in minimal time. Just my thinking.
-- Should be easy enough, they already have a prototype of the MK VI to look into such changes, or at least I saw an old photo of one. I am guessing the MK Viii will be the same or close to the same size as the MK Vi since there is little extra space at the Contemporary entrance/exits.
--I'm not knocking your ideas, , I do like your thoughts of standing places, just not so sure aboard the Monorails. A lot of things to be considered to make a change like that. They need to get that prototype and see what they can do.
have a great day

 

[s8film40]

Good point!
It is tough comparing the Vegas trains with the MK vi, at least I think so. Even though the Vegas trains are supposed to be based on the MK VI, I think that comparison is more to the suspension rather than coach capacity. Being wider, the vegas trains have the advantage.
Guests rushing in to pick a door is mute, no matter where they go, they arrive at the same place. As I recall, the rush is more to find a coach that has vacant seats or even just be able to get aboard.
I don't see the MK Viii's being made wider, if needed for standing passengers, and increasing passenger numbers is going to increase weight. I know the DisneyLand trains have no extra power for accessories, and the WDW trains I believe have already had a power upgrade for the MKvi's.
-- Are you thinking of a different type of seating along the cabin wall? The current seats are roughly 3 foot deep, two across are 6 feet. Aren't the cabins about 8 foot across??
-- I believe they have to comply to emergency exit times also. So the coaches need to be able to quickly have guests exit in minimal time. Just my thinking.
-- Should be easy enough, they already have a prototype of the MK VI to look into such changes, or at least I saw an old photo of one. I am guessing the MK Viii will be the same or close to the same size as the MK Vi since there is little extra space at the Contemporary entrance/exits.
--I'm not knocking your ideas, , I do like your thoughts of standing places, just not so sure aboard the Monorails. A lot of things to be considered to make a change like that. They need to get that prototype and see what they can do.
have a great day

The Vegas trains are the same size as the WDW Mark VI trains they're not wider. As to the point of guests rushing in to find a door and picking the wrong one I think you missed the point I was making. As it is now the bench seat divides the car in half and makes seats on the opposite side inaccessible so people are forced to stand rather than sit simply due to the seating configuration. Below are the comparisons of the Mark VI and Vegas Innovia. They're kind of small, but hopefully you can make out the differences. Like I said simply moving the center seat to the sides opens up a lot of room allowing for more standing and better flow throughout the car while only sacrificing two seats.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The Vegas trains are the same size as the WDW Mark VI trains they're not wider.

The INNOVIA 200 is 8’-8” wide compared to the 8’-4 ½” of the Mark VI. That extra 3 ½” would be like 7 SF across the length of a car, so you may be able to squeeze in another person or two.

 

[nace888]

As this is my design thread, my goal for this was to actually have the side bench seating, and depending on if it's doable, put in a small Corridor on one side or the other of the Drive Tire. Half walls at the ends of the cars would allow for possible evacuations and better airflow if small Tire bypasses were not doable.

 

[Phantom Mickey]

The Vegas trains are the same size as the WDW Mark VI trains they're not wider. As to the point of guests rushing in to find a door and picking the wrong one I think you missed the point I was making. As it is now the bench seat divides the car in half and makes seats on the opposite side inaccessible so people are forced to stand rather than sit simply due to the seating configuration. Below are the comparisons of the Mark VI and Vegas Innovia. They're kind of small, but hopefully you can make out the differences. Like I said simply moving the center seat to the sides opens up a lot of room allowing for more standing and better flow throughout the car while only sacrificing two seats.
View attachment 285764
View attachment 285766

The Vegas trains are the same size as the WDW Mark VI trains they're not wider. As to the point of guests rushing in to find a door and picking the wrong one I think you missed the point I was making. As it is now the bench seat divides the car in half and makes seats on the opposite side inaccessible so people are forced to stand rather than sit simply due to the seating configuration. Below are the comparisons of the Mark VI and Vegas Innovia. They're kind of small, but hopefully you can make out the differences. Like I said simply moving the center seat to the sides opens up a lot of room allowing for more standing and better flow throughout the car while only sacrificing two seats.
View attachment 285764
View attachment 285766

It's interesting how the nose cab of the two trains have very similar shapes, yet looks so different when viewed from the outside or by drawing.
just pushing some numbers out there, and this is just going by the drawings and making a purely random observation,,,, the EXISTING MK vi has 20 seats per car and possibly room for 16 standing positions for a total of 36 guests per car.
The Vegas train appears to have seating for 18 guests and standing room for maybe 16 guests. Using those weak numbers I would compare a total of 34 guests per MK vi coach vs a total of 34 Guests per coach, less if a disability vehicle or child transport is aboard.
MY GUESS at side seating would go as follows.
The forward and back seats appear to be filling an area that has equipment under it, they may have to stay in that position. that leaves space for 12 side seats, 6 on each side. For Standing guests, I would go with 22 per coach. If this is possible, the max number of guests in this configuation would be about 30.

Now lets say the front and rear seats CAN be moved to the side. Now you have a total of 14 seated guests and 26 standing guests for a total of 40 guests, barring any unforseen obsticles that would diminish that number.

I am not seeing the need to walk by the traction wheels, which would be a narrow hallway as there are two you need to pass to get to the next car. BUT if that were to be included in the design.....

The seating with the pass to the next coach beside the traction wheels would be estimated as 10 seated, 12 standers for a total of 32 guests. I am pretty sure for safety reasons, you cannot be standing above the coach couplings or next to the traction wheels.

Seems to be a cost to have that isle beside the traction wheels.

As the monorails biggest advantage is the ability to load and unload quickly, I don't see the two sets of doors per side going away. And I am thinking that the present seating was designed with that in mind. Do you have any numbers on guest flow for the DISNEYland MK vii? Though I don't believe the guest flow numbers are anywhere near the MK vi but the info due to the MK vii's seating arrangement might be helpful...

This has been an interesting thread. I'm pretty sure do to guest flows, it wouldn't matter much if guests sit or stand as they come to the park and ride to the parks or hotels. BUT as the day wears on, guests wait in the long que lines, sun beats down and trying to keep the kids in line for the day, my thought is more that tired guests would prefer to sit as they rumble to the TTC after a long hot day at the Magic Kingdom, or where ever, standing in a moving vehicle would be the last choice, as on the buses.

But not to knock it, any spot to get from point A to point B will be taken but I don't think anyone with kids would be warming up to that choice, especially with tired kids that are acting up after a long day. Just my thinking.

The positives of standing is shown in the Vegas monorails pics. The coach is shown as very open, much like the inner city CTA trains.

Its a tough decision and I'd be concerned that the wrong decision could kill the monorail over time.

Thanks for your time, been fun