M:S weightlessness!

P

pyschotropic

New Member
Original Poster
It took me awhile, but I finally figured out pretty much how they are going to pull this off. As each pod rotates around the centerfuge the cars will be tipped forward, as the passenger being held in their restraints begin to feel the forces of gravity pulling them, but also pushing at the same time they will be suspended in between giving a sense of weightlessness. The only thing left I cant really figure out is if you are constantly rotating around a 360 degree axis, and being shown a display of
your craft on a screen traveling forward through Space how could they sync the visual and physical effects together?
 
WDWspider

WDWspider

New Member
Originally posted by pyschotropic
It took me awhile, but I finally figured out pretty much how they are going to pull this off. As each pod rotates around the centerfuge the cars will be tipped forward, as the passenger being held in their restraints begin to feel the forces of gravity pulling them, but also pushing at the same time they will be suspended in between giving a sense of weightlessness. The only thing left I cant really figure out is if you are constantly rotating around a 360 degree axis, and being shown a display of
your craft on a screen traveling forward through Space how could they sync the visual and physical effects together?
Click to expand...

If the pod rotates In sync with the centrifuge but in the opposite direction I suppose it would be possible to feel like you are going straight instead of in circles right?
 
colliera

colliera

Member
What If?

What if during the "launch" the pod is spun normally feet out so the Gs press you into the chair/couch and then during the "coast" phase of the acent the pod slows with decreasing added Gs back to the normal 1G or in a feet down orientation. As orbit is achieved the pod is adjusted to a heads out position and the pod is spun up again. Now with your visual orientation stable in the pod your mind thinks, "Hey! I'm pulling/lifting against the restraints instead of sinking into the couch. This must be weightlessness?" If this is so then the barf factor on this could simulator could be high.

At first I though maybe after hard acceleration a hard deceleration would give the weightless effect but now I'm thinking the tilt of the pod might work better.

Anyway, when it opens it isn't something that a penny and a string level can't figure out.
:hurl:
 
joho0

joho0

New Member
They can't simulate true weightlessness but they can simulate apparent weightlessness.

A person in a centrifuge only feels a force (centripital force) pulling on them in a direction opposite the direction towards the axis. That is, they only feel a force pulling them back as they face the axis. They would have no idea they were 'spinning' unless they could see some external reference outside the centrifuge. If the centrifuge pods are closed with no windows (which M:S is) then they wouldn't even know they're spinning, they would just feel a force pushing them back into their seats (assuming they are facing the axis of rotation)

Now imagine that the pods at the end of the centrifuge arms can rotate freely in all 3 axis. Now, as the centrifuge spins, the pods can reorient themselves so that the centripital force comes from different directions. Rotate the pod so that the rider is facing away from the axis of rotation and they feel a force pushing them forward. Rotate the pod so that the rider is facing straight down with their head pointed at the axis and they feel a force pushing down on their head. Finally, reorint the pod so that the rider is facing down with their rear pointed at the axis and they feel a force pushing them up.

Now bear in mind that the rider is in a closed poid and can't see any external references to orient themselves by. All they see is what is on the projection monitor in front of them. They can't tell up from down, literally! All they know is something is tugging down on them and the monitor shows them 'liffting off' so, viola, the brain says, "I must be taking off".

Now the trick here is that gravity is still in effect at all times (can't break the law of gravity) so even though the rider may be facing down with their head pointed toward the axis and therefore they feel a force pulling 'down' on their shoulders, they also feel gravity which is pulling them toward the ground (which would be face down in this example). So this is why I say apparent weightlessness instead of true weightlessness. You would have to be in orbit or in deep space to be truly weightless and even then, there is still micro-gravity to deal with.

Hope this helps...
 
WDWspider

WDWspider

New Member
Yes, that makes much more sense, I was trying to make a Barf Coctail I think. :lol: If done correctly, there may not be as many sick people as I thought. Is it because the force outward is so much stronger than the force side to side that you will not feel like you are going around. I know in a Gravitron if you raise your head out you can tell the spinning sensation very well regardless of reference points.
 
F

FourFourSeven

Member
Originally posted by joho0
They can't simulate true weightlessness but they can simulate apparent weightlessness.
...
Hope this helps...
Click to expand...

Nice explanation. I do think that the visuals and the changes in force will do the trick. However, I'm still skeptical about the "weightless feel" Let me use crude ASCII stick-figures to explain.

First, let's look at the "blast-off". The circle is the guy's head, the "I" his arms, the "<" his legs. The arrow pointing right is the direction of the force from the centrifuge.(think of it as the string that your pod is at the end of). The arrow at the bottom is gravity pulling down.


--------> O-I-<
. .. . . . . . .|
. .. . . . . . .|
. . . . . . . . V

Clearly, the centrifuge can create a significant (say 2 or 3 G) force, which will not only feel like a blast-off, but is significant enough you're unlikely to really notice the gravity. (And they could rotate you some - think of the guy's feet on a top that is spinning while he's on his side - so the gravity will keep changing direction - it'll confuse you so much you won't know which way is up).

However, look at the drawing of the supposed "weightless" feeling. Note that the stick figure has been flipped around:
--------> >-I-O
. .. . . . . . .|
. . .. . . . . .|
. . . . . . . . V


I don't see how a force that will lift you out of your seat, but not counter gravity, will feel "weightless". The two forces don't counter each other at all. Yes, you will be pulled out of your seat with one force, but that's not weightlessness, it's negative-g's. I guess a light "pulling out of seat" force with the standing-on-a-slowly-spinning-top effect to confuse you which way the downward pulling force is coming from, along with visual cues that make you think you're weightless, may sort of feel like weightlessness. But I bet if you close your eyes, you'll know which way is up, so to speak.

Am I misunderstanding things, or is this how it's going to work? If so, I wonder how good the weightlessness feeling will be. (I bet the launch is something else, though...) What are other people's thoughts?
 
R

rjew

New Member
Let me throw my 2 cents in,

First you're right, if you can't see out you don't know what way is up. Pilot have to be trained to fly in the clouds and trust their instruments not their butts. (IFR flight training). Once you lose visual reference, if you feel a 1 G (1 times the force of gravity) pushing you into your seat, then you will feel like you are sitting still. (Unless the visuals on screen show you moving.)

By tilting into or away from the centrifical force plus speeding up the centrafuge, they can simulate higher and lower G loads - making it feel like you are accelerating or decelerating.

Our brains are fooled very easily. Pilots have to worry about a type of vertigo called the leans. If you roll the aircraft slowly right or left, then your ear doesn't feel the motion and "thinks" you are right side up. If you then look at you instuments and see "I'm rolled to the right and turning right, let me correct this by rolling left". In reality, you will be flying right side up, but you brain, ear, and butt will think you are turning left because that is the only sensation you've felt. A number of pilots have killed themselves because they couldn't "trust" the instruments. Sims can really take advantage of this "feel".

447 - I think you're on the right track but your diagrams are drawn at 90 degrees to the pull of earth's gravity. If they rotate the pod off 90, then instead of setting the force vectors to give neg Gs, they could almost balance it so you felt no force. The pod would have to push you away from earth's gravity to counter earth. Maybe by moving the arm holding the pod up and down, they could get short-term but better results. They will probably get reduced G loads as opposed to true 0.

No sim will exactly duplicate the true feel of the real thing. If you've ever been in an aircraft sim and then flown the real thing, you know what I mean. It's amazing how close they can come. The problem with simming G's is that it can be weight and size dependent. I'll bet that people of diffenent sizes will get a slightly different feel.

In any case, I can't wait to ride it and try to figure out how they implemented this one.

Thanks
 
dliddi

dliddi

New Member
Here's what I was thinking about how they do it, what ever way they spin it to get the positive G's. There is some another piece rotating a the opposite way, it could be used to decelerated the centrifuge, and a certain point it could then start to rotate it at the opposite direction of the spin, I think that they could go from positive to negative, it a short period, giving you a feel of weightlessness. Sorry not very tech. But it gets across my gist.:veryconfu :
 
colliera

colliera

Member
Graphic Explaination

ASCII figures well done! Graphically speaking here's what I was thinking:

Normal at rest: O AXIS of Simulator
I|
|
^

Pulling Gs >--I--O AXIS of Simulator




"Weightlessness":

O--I---< AXIS of Simulator

I believe from the diagram I am in agreement with FourFourSeven, I'm just observing the left side of the simulator rather than the right side.
 
Rider

Rider

Well-Known Member
I've had the luck to experence a real centrafuge at 3Gs, and I have to say it is an experence.

You can't tell you are spining. You do feel a little like you are going forward, but mostly it is like sitting still. Now, I didn't have anything to look at, so I assume a video would make movements feel real.

When it stops, you get the most strange feeling. If you close your eyes it feels like you are falling forward forever. You never get upside down, you just keep falling forward.
 
MKingdom25

MKingdom25

New Member
Originally posted by spider-man
Yes, that makes much more sense, I was trying to make a Barf Coctail I think. :lol:
Click to expand...
Hopefully the barf factor is low. This sounds like a great ride but too much spinning could be bad.

But hey I am going to have a open mind and pay attention to the reviews here on the forum.
 
A

Al

Well-Known Member
all this technical language is making me confused!!!!!!! From what i can gather....its gonna b good! Just hope it wont be name "Mission:BLLEEEURRG" :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Scooter

Scooter

Well-Known Member
My two cents worth....:)

I think Mission Space is just gonna be a high tech Simulator ride.

You might be in a "Pod" but not a centrifuge. I centrifuge has a big "Barf Factor" and Disney would not let that happen.

Much like the "Build your own Rollercoaster and ride it" rides at DisneyQuest, I think you will put in a Pod with 2 other individuals and the pod will twist and turn you in such a way, and show you a film, until you get the illusion that you are weightless.

Don't get me wrong..I think it will be a blast...but this whole centrifuge idea just doesn't seem plausible to me. Too many people would get dizzy and throw up if this were to happen.:hurl:

I guess we will see in the Fall of 2003
 
AndyMagic

AndyMagic

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Scooter
My two cents worth....:)

I think Mission Space is just gonna be a high tech Simulator ride.

You might be in a "Pod" but not a centrifuge. I centrifuge has a big "Barf Factor" and Disney would not let that happen.

Much like the "Build your own Rollercoaster and ride it" rides at DisneyQuest, I think you will put in a Pod with 2 other individuals and the pod will twist and turn you in such a way, and show you a film, until you get the illusion that you are weightless.

Don't get me wrong..I think it will be a blast...but this whole centrifuge idea just doesn't seem plausible to me. Too many people would get dizzy and throw up if this were to happen.:hurl:

I guess we will see in the Fall of 2003
Click to expand...
It's pretty much official that it will be a centrifuge. Don't think of a centrifuge as a Merry-Go-Round that spins really fast! If done correctly, with visuals matching the movements of the cabin, it is possible to trick the brain in which case you wouldn't get dizzy. The question isn't whether it will be a centrifuge but rather, how well they will pull off the visual aspect of the ride.
 
jmarc63

jmarc63

New Member
Originally posted by Scooter
My two cents worth....:)

I think Mission Space is just gonna be a high tech Simulator ride.

You might be in a "Pod" but not a centrifuge. I centrifuge has a big "Barf Factor" and Disney would not let that happen.

Much like the "Build your own Rollercoaster and ride it" rides at DisneyQuest, I think you will put in a Pod with 2 other individuals and the pod will twist and turn you in such a way, and show you a film, until you get the illusion that you are weightless.

Don't get me wrong..I think it will be a blast...but this whole centrifuge idea just doesn't seem plausible to me. Too many people would get dizzy and throw up if this were to happen.:hurl:

I guess we will see in the Fall of 2003
Click to expand...


scooter.....

how do I put this as not to sound mean. But If you look at steve's postings on the main board about M:S and read the threads the evidence is there. It will be a centerfuge type af attraction. When steve posts information on an attractionn or rumors he has conformation on the information he gives before he will post anything. He has sources in the know that are very reliable about the information that is provided to him, as well as independent posts of CMs on the boards. also there are pictures of early construction of M:S to confirm this. Please do a search on M:S and read the posts
 

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