LA Times: Is Disney Paying Its Fair Share In Anaheim

[Sir_Cliff]

It's honestly surprising to me that so many people here are on Disney's side.

Of course Disney is going to push for the best deal for Disney, but that doesn't mean the best deal Disney can get makes any sense for the residents of Anaheim or even effects in any meaningful way the development of DLR. I think everyone here acknowledges that Disney would have built a parking structure and SW:GE with or without all the government incentives. Why shouldn't the people of Anaheim then not feel screwed that Disney is essentially getting free money to do what it would have done anyway? Does anyone really think the residents of Anaheim will benefit more from Disney building a luxury hotel than Disney will? If not, why not leave it up to Disney to build it and pay their taxes like everyone else?

 

[Deleted member 107043]

If Anaheim can’t support high end hotels without subsidies, then tough ****.

Makes you wonder how Disney was going to support the 5-6 hotels it was planning to build under the Westcot Resort plan doesn't it? For the longest time I wondered why Disney hadn't expanded it's hotel stock in Anaheim when it's reported to be running annual occupancy rates well above the national average, and it just occurred to me that Disney has been stalling until some kind of big concession was offered by the city. Based on the past 20 years of unfulfilled promises I wouldn't be surprised a bit if Disney never builds the new hotel as planned.

 

[FerretAfros]

It's about stopping it before it even starts. A cheap tax won't impact anyone. No one goes "higher sales tax in XYZ county? No way will I eat at that restaurant!!" . Taxes have to become cumulative or excessive for people to take note of them. The problem for Disney is... once a tax is in place, its virtually impossible to get rid of, and very difficult to control its future growth. Disney stopping it before it even gets a foothold. Once it's there, it's an element in the cost equation Disney can't control... and ultimately customers look at Disney when they pay the bottom line... even if it's not a fee Disney gets.

As a non-Californian who visits soCal a few times per year, I would argue that they're already at the excessive level where they make me take note and wonder whether to plan another trip. With LA County at 10% and Orange County at 8% (I think?), it's enough that I'm almost always shocked by the additional cost when I reach the cash register. It may not be enough to significantly change my spending habits when I'm there, but it is enough to make me second-guess whether or not to make the trip in the first place. And that's a problem for a world-class tourist destination

Anaheim currently taxes tourists visiting Disneyland with a 15% Hotel/Motel tax on each night's room rate. A chunk of that money goes into the Anaheim General Fund to service and maintain the streets, sidewalks and utilities in the Anaheim Resort District. The rest of it goes into the General Fund to maintain parks, police, libraries and city services up to 15 miles away from Disneyland within Anaheim's sprawling city boundaries. 43% of that General Fund comes from the Resort District, while that District takes a much smaller fraction of city resources to maintain.

Hotel tax in the Resort District is actually 17%, with the additional 2% earmarked specifically for the Resort District (though how exactly that money is spent is anybody's guess, since there haven't been any notable infrastructure improvements since the original build-out nearly 2 decades ago and the aesthetic maintenance costs are minor. I do a decent amount of travelling both domestically and abroad, and I've never encountered anywhere with a hotel tax as high as the Anaheim Resort District

And add in parking fees (typically $20-25+ per car per night) and random other hotel fees, and you have a lot of tourists who leave with a bad taste in their mouths about all the hidden costs, largely due to taxes from the various levels of government that oversee the Disneyland area. Adding yet another tax/fee into the equation really would push a lot of people away. I'm as big a Disneyland fan as they come, but even I struggle to justify it all; I'm sure an average family finds it even less appealing

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Makes you wonder how Disney was going to support the 5-6 hotels it was planning to build under the Westcot Resort plan doesn't it? For the longest time I wondered why Disney hadn't expanded it's hotel stock in Anaheim when it's reported to be running annual occupancy rates well above the national average, and it just occurred to me that Disney has been stalling until some kind of big concession was offered by the city. Based on the past 20 years of unfulfilled promises I wouldn't be surprised a bit if Disney never builds the new hotel as planned.

This is the other side of all of these incentives, which probably comes into play with the whole eastern gateway. The history of all these generous incentives is quite possibly causing Disney to delay expansion plans until they can get the most generous deal they can from the city.

 

[flynnibus]

As a non-Californian who visits soCal a few times per year, I would argue that they're already at the excessive level where they make me take note and wonder whether to plan another trip. With LA County at 10% and Orange County at 8% (I think?), it's enough that I'm almost always shocked by the additional cost when I reach the cash register. It may not be enough to significantly change my spending habits when I'm there, but it is enough to make me second-guess whether or not to make the trip in the first place. And that's a problem for a world-class tourist destination

That's because you are considering traveling/vacation destinations - that is a much bigger decision. You are looking at areas as 'expensive' or not. But that's a cumulative effect, not just 1-3% on a single transaction.

It's more akin you to deciding to visit a restaurant in an incorporated city vs one outside the town limits. Eating in town is more expensive due to the local tax... but it's really unlikely to keep you from visiting a restaurant you like. But if all things were equal.. maybe you'd pick the out of town one. But now let's say it's Disneyland vs Six Flags. You aren't going to pick six flags over Disneyland due to a 1-3% local tax at Disneyland.

TL : DR - Customers don't sweat taxes until the cumulative effect is enough the add-ons represent a significant portion of their bill. No one cares about a local recovery fee on their rental car... but if taxes add up to 20$ on a 50$ rental... the taxes will get new focus.

 

[flynnibus]

Hotel tax in the Resort District is actually 17%, with the additional 2% earmarked specifically for the Resort District (though how exactly that money is spent is anybody's guess, since there haven't been any notable infrastructure improvements since the original build-out nearly 2 decades ago and the aesthetic maintenance costs are minor. I do a decent amount of travelling both domestically and abroad, and I've never encountered anywhere with a hotel tax as high as the Anaheim Resort District

well since tourism is the main industry in town.. the 15% TOT funds over 40% of their tax intake. It funds the general city - not just the Resort District. The 2% add-on just for the Resort District is only since 2010... and is for marketing/improvements in the RD... including the now defunct Transit plan.

 

[flynnibus]

]

Source - https://www.hvs.com/article/8089-2017-hvs-lodging-tax-report-usa

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Just read part 2 and OMG.

 

[BrianLo]

I've come to learn that the whole US taxation system seems bunk. School funding isn't fully state regulated?

How is a city with such a massive employer and tourist industry so backwards? I don't think Disney is the root of the problem, it seems like America is.

 

[mickEblu]

Just read part 2 and OMG.

Why OMG? I started falling asleep after the few paragraphs.

 

[Disney Irish]

I've come to learn that the whole US taxation system seems bunk. School funding isn't fully state regulated?

How is a city with such a massive employer and tourist industry so backwards? I don't think Disney is the root of the problem, it seems like America is.

Yes and no, the issue is not America itself, but rather society as a whole. It goes across a lot of Western Nations right now. And yes America is right in the center of that.

The issue is we as a country went from "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" to the era of what I call the "Me Generation". It now has become all about "me", selfies, greed, materialism, etc. No longer do you take personal responsibility, you blame the other guy for why you have a bad life. Anaheim is mismanaged, so of course its Disney's fault because they got some incentives and some "sweet-heart deals".

Really if Anaheim wants to improve the rest of the city they should be working with its biggest employer not blaming them.

How about this:

Anaheim: "Ok Disney, you want to build the Eastern Gateway? How about donating $100 Million over the next 10 years to help improve the neighborhoods outside the Resort District. Call it a "Good Neighbor" donation. Do that and we'll approve the project so you can get underway. We'll even smooth over the things with those Harbor businesses."
Disney: "Sure, but lets draft legislation that says you can't use it for anything but City improvements. That means no pay raises, etc. Its all for the improvements of the City."

I mean really if Anaheim was really wanting to improve things its easy to do. It just takes some creativity. But like most politicians they just know how to blame and never get anything real done. Just look at what is happening in the Washington right now.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Why OMG? I started falling asleep after the few paragraphs.

Of course you did, Millennial.

The article basically exposes the WDCo, Disneyland Resort, and the City of Anaheim for their long history of cozy backdoor dealings that include literally millions of dollars in financial contributions from Disney to candidates that will do its bidding while the company goes out of its way to make as few concessions as possible. It's a well written and detailed investigation that probably has TDA and folks in Burbank in a tizzy trying to figure out the correct way to spin this in case the story blows up across news media channels.

Long story short it is an extremely negative story, and coming from a nationally recognized news organization it is a blow to Disney's image and embarrassment for the City's past council members. I think it's safe to say this could escalate the animosity of Anaheim citizens against Disney even further, which in turn might impact future developments at DLR.

 

[Disney Irish]

The article basically exposes the WDCo, Disneyland Resort, and the City of Anaheim for their long history of cozy backdoor dealings that include literally millions of dollars in financial contributions from Disney to candidates that will do the its bidding while the company goes out of its way to make as few concessions as little as possible. It's a well written and detailed investigation that probably has TDA and folks in Burbank in a tizzy trying to figure out the correct way to spin this in case the story blows up across the media.

Long story short it is an extremely negative story, and coming from a nationally recognized news organization it is a blow to Disney's image and embarrassment for the City's past council members. I think it's safe to say this could escalate the animosity of Anaheim citizens against Disney even further, which could potentially impact long-term developments at DLR.

Let's be real, most people don't read the media anymore, lol. Unless its on Facebook or their Twitter feed most won't see it.

 

[BrianLo]

Yes and no, the issue is not America itself, but rather society as a whole. It goes across a lot of Western Nations right now. And yes America is right in the center of that.

The issue is we as a country went from "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" to the era of what I call the "Me Generation". It now has become all about "me", selfies, greed, materialism, etc. No longer do you take personal responsibility, you blame the other guy for why you have a bad life. Anaheim is mismanaged, so of course its Disney's fault because they got some incentives and some "sweet-heart deals".

Really if Anaheim wants to improve the rest of the city they should be working with its biggest employer not blaming them.

How about this:

Anaheim: "Ok Disney, you want to build the Eastern Gateway? How about donating $100 Million over the next 10 years to help improve the neighborhoods outside the Resort District. Call it a "Good Neighbor" donation. Do that and we'll approve the project so you can get underway. We'll even smooth over the things with those Harbor businesses."
Disney: "Sure, but lets draft legislation that says you can't use it for anything but City improvements. That means no pay raises, etc. Its all for the improvements of the City."

I mean really if Anaheim was really wanting to improve things its easy to do. It just takes some creativity. But like most politicians they just know how to blame and never get anything real done. Just look at what is happening in the Washington right now.

I totally get what you are saying. Lots of countries have similar sorts of problems. However, we can be weirdly quite different below the surface.

I think it was just @the.dreamfinder 's comments about childhood education inequality that really saddened me, how is it that a corporation is responsible for that? I don't doubt for a minute that it is indirectly responsible, just more of a fascinating American-ism that it is even possible.

I don't want to make this uber political as I have quite literally zero investments in US politics, but I find the spread of popularism quite fascinating. I think that's partially what you are alluding to. It's even affected our colonial overloads. Yet it weirdly has fallen on deaf ears here (Canada) and a few other G8 countries.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Really if Anaheim wants to improve the rest of the city they should be working with its biggest employer not blaming them.

Isn't that exactly what it did by sending Disney back to the drawing board on the Eastern Gateway plan?

Let's be real, most people don't read the media anymore, lol. Unless its on Facebook or their Twitter feed most won't see it.

Are you kidding? That's all my Facebook and Twitter feed are - reposts of news articles.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I've come to learn that the whole US taxation system seems bunk. School funding isn't fully state regulated?

How is a city with such a massive employer and tourist industry so backwards? I don't think Disney is the root of the problem, it seems like America is.

State will have minimum standards (days of school) and a base curriculum, but funding and operating primary and secondary schools falls to the local level, typically the city or county. It seems that no matter the location, education and emergency services are always on the line as those are what people find most agreeable when it comes to local taxation. It also probably doesn't help that too many see every $1.00 in new revenue is seen as permission to spend $1.10.

 

[Disney Irish]

Isn't that exactly what it did by sending Disney back to the drawing board on the Eastern Gateway plan?

Well we don't know all the details since it hasn't become public. All they said was go back and try to work it out with the Harbor businesses. Since there has been no movement we can just assume that its a staring contest to see who blinks first. If Anaheim really wanted to work with Disney on this and the rest of city improvements they would. But the Mayor seems to be so anti-Disney at this point its beyond ridiculous, so likely not much will be done. That is just my opinion anyways.

Are you kidding? That's all my Facebook and Twitter feed are - reposts of news articles.

That is yours up here in the Bay Area, but likely not most residents in Anaheim.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes and no, the issue is not America itself, but rather society as a whole. It goes across a lot of Western Nations right now. And yes America is right in the center of that.

The issue is we as a country went from "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" to the era of what I call the "Me Generation". It now has become all about "me", selfies, greed, materialism, etc. No longer do you take personal responsibility, you blame the other guy for why you have a bad life. Anaheim is mismanaged, so of course its Disney's fault because they got some incentives and some "sweet-heart deals".

Really if Anaheim wants to improve the rest of the city they should be working with its biggest employer not blaming them.

How about this:

Anaheim: "Ok Disney, you want to build the Eastern Gateway? How about donating $100 Million over the next 10 years to help improve the neighborhoods outside the Resort District. Call it a "Good Neighbor" donation. Do that and we'll approve the project so you can get underway. We'll even smooth over the things with those Harbor businesses."
Disney: "Sure, but lets draft legislation that says you can't use it for anything but City improvements. That means no pay raises, etc. Its all for the improvements of the City."

I mean really if Anaheim was really wanting to improve things its easy to do. It just takes some creativity. But like most politicians they just know how to blame and never get anything real done. Just look at what is happening in the Washington right now.

You mean extortion by the government??? Yeah, that will be just swell

 

[Deleted member 107043]

That is yours up here in the Bay Area, but likely not most residents in Anaheim.

People in Anaheim don't see reposts of news articles in their social media feeds? Huh?

 

[Disney Irish]

You mean extortion by the government??? Yeah, that will be just swell

I wasn't saying that would ever happen. It was just a quick thought on how a deal could be done and get city improvements at the same time.

As to whether its extortion or not, or even legal, is a different question.