Jungle Cruise Re-Imagining

[Animaniac93-98]

I did not know this! Thanks for sharing.

I've had the chance to see all 4 versions of JC and I'd rank HKDL at the top, despite being the shortest version of the ride.

It feels the most like you're in a Jungle and has the best staging & combination of previous set pieces and new ideas. Even better at night.

The CMs are also tasked with doing the spiel in 3 different languages. There's separate lines for English, Cantonese and Mandarin. Your English speaking skipper may not be the most fluent, but I won't pretend that I could do better as a multi-lingual host.

 

[rylouisbo]

There is no debate in terms of the larger picture, which is what my post was concerning. The history of the lack of healthy and positive representation within the black community is all factual. I’m not scolding, nor talking down to you.

“Pretending as if whites people can’t understand or experience racism?” Since I literally never said that, I’m wondering how you came to imagine I said that or you somehow misunderstood my previous post. I said black people shouldn’t care about non-black people’s opinions regarding black issues, SPECIFICALLY those who have no interest in listening and only want to tell us how we should feel. How did you equate that to meaning “white people can’t understand or experience racism?”

your post implies that by saying "black people shouldnt care about non-black peoples opinions"
1. since this conversation is about racism youre implying that only black people can relate to your feelings here. therefore thats the only opinions that matter. but why would only black opinions matter when people of all races could relate to feelings of seeing racism directed towards them?

have a good evening as well.

 

[LittleBuford]

your posts continuously assume people are just not educated enough to agree with you or havnt talked to the right person yet...

You either have me confused with another poster or are just making things up because you think it helps support your argument. Either way, I'm disengaging.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

They should also bring back Marc's frogs!

 

[EPICOT]

It's clear that most/many of the posters defending these changes only see the world through a lens of race and vague "power dynamics." If only they would be honest and admit that they think their fellow board members are low-brow racists. Unfortunately, they will never admit that because it would make their position unpalatable to the average person.

Ironically, every character, movie, book, land, ride, etc is a stereotype/caricature of something because, by the very nature of communication and media, you MUST simplify reality.

 

[LittleBuford]

It's clear that most/many of the posters defending these changes only see the world through a lens of race and vague "power dynamics." If only they would be honest and admit that they think their fellow board members are low-brow racists. Unfortunately, they will never admit that because it would make their position unpalatable to the average person.

You can disagree with someone without slurring them as dishonest.

 

[EPICOT]

You can disagree with someone without slurring them as dishonest.

That is quite true, but are these same members going to disagree with these below statements? I am just following their statements to their logical conclusions.

1. Certain scenes on the JC contribute to societal racism. (Clearly they agree with this)
2. Supporting or liking something that contributes to societal racism makes one a racist. (Read the posts with the analogy about dinner with a Muslim. The implication is that you are "unwelcoming" ie. racist if you do not make the appropriate changes.)
3. The forum members who support/like these certain scenes of the JC are racist. (Just connecting the first 2 points, but they will never explicitly say it.)

 

[LittleBuford]

That is quite true, but are these same members going to disagree with these below statements? I am just following their statements to their logical conclusions.

1. Certain scenes on the JC contribute to societal racism. (Clearly they agree with this)
2. Supporting or liking something that contributes to societal racism makes one a racist. (Read the posts with the analogy about dinner with a Muslim. The implication is that you are "unwelcoming" ie. racist if you do not make the appropriate changes.)
3. The forum members who support/like these certain scenes of the JC are racist. (Just connecting the first 2 points, but they will never explicitly say it.)

I think No. 2 is overly simplistic, at least as far as the Jungle Cruise is concerned. It's perfectly possible for people to enjoy something that's problematic without being aware of or recognising its problematic nature. I can well imagine my parents riding the Jungle Cruise and being utterly blind to the racist tropes underlying the scenes in question. So no, it doesn't follow that someone who likes those scenes is a racist, though if, upon being presented with a different perspective, they continue to belittle and misrepresent the concerns of others, I am inclined to think that bigotry rather than lack of awareness is at play.

Regarding the dinner analogy, you don't agree that it would be unwelcoming to cook dinner for a guest without accommodating their dietary restrictions?

 

[HanSoloDolo]

I just wanted to point out how much the aesthetic of the concept art matches the recently released board game. Especially the crew members in the totem scene. They look very similar to the passenger game pieces.

 

[_caleb]

That is quite true, but are these same members going to disagree with these below statements? I am just following their statements to their logical conclusions.

I’m obviously one of the people you’re referring to, so please allow me to clarify my thoughts on the matter. I disagree with your logic here. It does not reflect my position at all.

1. Certain scenes on the JC contribute to societal racism. (Clearly they agree with this)

Certain scenes on the Jungle Cruise reflect societal racism (both the insensitivity of the era in which they were produced AND the fact that they’ve been allowed to stay in the parks for so long). The danger is that there is a cumulative effect of these sorts of casually racist gags all adding up to perpetuate racist attitudes and desensitize the public to racist stereotypes. Also, it’s mean to make fun of people and we should avoid it where possible.

2. Supporting or liking something that contributes to societal racism makes one a racist. (Read the posts with the analogy about dinner with a Muslim. The implication is that you are "unwelcoming" ie. racist if you do not make the appropriate changes.)

No. This is not correct. Supporting or liking things that contribute to societal racism does not “make one a racist.” I was the one who suggested the analogy about dinner with a Muslim. ”Unwelcoming” does not equal “being a racist.” It just means being unwelcoming.

Have you considered the difference between a racist (or racially insensitive) stereotype, image, response, or system and a racist person? I see major differences. I believe that a person doesn’t have to be a racist to enjoy Jungle Cruise scenes that I find to be racially insensitive. Marc Davis created the scenes in question, and I don’t see these as evidence that he was a racist.

Someone can even make racist comments on a message board and not be a racist. Several posters have written about routinely using common phrases that they did not know were racist until someone explained the origins of the phrases to them. Some people don’t think critically about entertainment. This doesn’t make them racist. And, most importantly, thoughtful, kind, intelligent, and non-racist people disagree over what is and is not racist. Lots of people on this board see things totally differently than I do, but that does not mean they are racists!

3. The forum members who support/like these certain scenes of the JC are racist. (Just connecting the first 2 points, but they will never explicitly say it.)

So your conclusion certainly doesn’t reflect my opinions at all. It is oversimplification to see everything as either racist or not racist. There needs to be room for nuance, intent, context, and disagreement.

In case you’re wondering what, in my way of thinking, would make someone a racist in all of this? If they agreed that the depictions of native peoples in the Jungle Cruise were racist and that’s why they liked them. Or if they wanted to keep those scenes around because they liked the idea of perpetuating racist stereotypes, preserving White supremacy, or promoting bigotry. That would make them racists.

That said, racially insensitive depictions of native peoples in Jungle Cruise is not the biggest problem in the world. It’s a theme park ride. This isn’t activism or academics, we’re engaging in discussion and analysis on a Disney parks fan site. I find it helpful to keep that perspective.

 

[Raineman]

I want to throw out a suggestion here, that may be a compromise to this issue, and I suggested this earlier in one of the Splash Mountain posts. As an alternative to completely changing the parts of JC that are perceived to be racially insensitive, why not place a sign with a disclaimer at the entrance of the ride? They have started doing this to some of the classics on Disney Plus; they are not removing the films from Disney + or completely removing offensive scenes, they are placing a disclaimer at the very beginning to inform people that there is racially insensitive material in the movie, and that people may not want to view it. If the guests at WDW see the sign, and still decide to ride, they at least are aware that some of the things they see may be offensive or triggering to them.
One more point, which is another point I had made previously regarding Splash Mountain, any changes made to attractions that eliminate any racially sensitive material are kind of token, superficial moves that really doesn't address the root problem or possible solutions of racism. Supporting initiatives to end racism and promote inclusivity in society would be alot better in showing how much Disney cares about these issues, and the level of financial backing and media coverage that Disney could provide to the anti-racism cause would be huge. I'm not saying that they should just do this and not change the attractions, but that providing money and resources to the cause would be much more effective than simply making a few changes to a ride.

 

[networkpro]

That said, racially insensitive depictions of native peoples in Jungle Cruise is not the biggest problem in the world. It’s a theme park ride. This isn’t activism or academics, we’re engaging in discussion and analysis on a Disney parks fan site. I find it helpful to keep that perspective.

Yet some forum members attempt to elevate it to that level and ascribe pejorative attributes to others as they comment their opinions. It lacks civility and it escalated the rhetoric considerably. That's where I begin disregarding opinions no matter how they are fervently pursued.

 

[networkpro]

Questionable

It's something that people are interpreting through the lens of their own experiences and beliefs, not objectivity. When civilizations, countries, and cultures have come into contact there have been various outcomes: assimilation, acculturation, subjugation, and elimination. Winners and losers, that's the human condition no matter how much one believes they are elevated above the primordial muck.

 

[MisterPenguin]

I want to throw out a suggestion here, that may be a compromise to this issue, and I suggested this earlier in one of the Splash Mountain posts. As an alternative to completely changing the parts of JC that are perceived to be racially insensitive, why not place a sign with a disclaimer at the entrance of the ride? They have started doing this to some of the classics on Disney Plus; they are not removing the films from Disney + or completely removing offensive scenes, they are placing a disclaimer at the very beginning to inform people that there is racially insensitive material in the movie, and that people may not want to view it. If the guests at WDW see the sign, and still decide to ride, they at least are aware that some of the things they see may be offensive or triggering to them.

Changing a film after the fact has huge amounts of difficulty. Re-animating and re-shooting is expensive, if you can even get the original talent, who may be long dead.

Disney puts a warning label on it. And if the film is popular enough, reboots it.

Changing a scene on a ride is comparatively easy.

One more point, which is another point I had made previously regarding Splash Mountain, any changes made to attractions that eliminate any racially sensitive material are kind of token, superficial moves that really doesn't address the root problem or possible solutions of racism. Supporting initiatives to end racism and promote inclusivity in society would be alot better in showing how much Disney cares about these issues, and the level of financial backing and media coverage that Disney could provide to the anti-racism cause would be huge. I'm not saying that they should just do this and not change the attractions, but that providing money and resources to the cause would be much more effective than simply making a few changes to a ride.

There aren't any racist scenes in Splash to alter. (Unless you count the mockery of hillbillies.) The problem is the movie it came from. So, there's no token changes here, it's a big statement being made.

While there is merit to saving reminders of past difficulties as a lesson for today... they're best moved into a museum, and not allowed to be 'consumed' as if it's still OK.

But, that's been discussed ad nauseum in the many threads about Splash that exist on the forums here.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Changing a scene on a ride is comparatively easy.

Disney attractions should be updated as well. The 2 kids video chatting would be a strange final scene of spaceship earth in 2021.

 

[rylouisbo]

That is quite true, but are these same members going to disagree with these below statements? I am just following their statements to their logical conclusions.

1. Certain scenes on the JC contribute to societal racism. (Clearly they agree with this)
2. Supporting or liking something that contributes to societal racism makes one a racist. (Read the posts with the analogy about dinner with a Muslim. The implication is that you are "unwelcoming" ie. racist if you do not make the appropriate changes.)
3. The forum members who support/like these certain scenes of the JC are racist. (Just connecting the first 2 points, but they will never explicitly say it.)

exactly. but dont worry if you simply "get educated" or lectured by the right person then you too can not be racist!

the whole thing comes down to a world view where some people think that others need to be taught or educated because they just arent informed enough and that when they are forced to learn things then they'll change their minds. they basically use the plot of 1984 as a guidemap.

 

[MisterPenguin]

exactly. but dont worry if you simply "get educated" or lectured by the right person then you too can not be racist!

the whole thing comes down to a world view where some people think that others need to be taught or educated because they just arent informed enough and that when they are forced to learn things then they'll change their minds. they basically use the plot of 1984 as a guidemap.

Thank-you for that lecture. I've now been educated.

 

[SirLink]

I think if Disney were more intellectually honest about this as being updated for the movie that is coming along with Frank the Skipper(the Rocks' character). This thread wouldn't be the dumpster fire it has become.

 

[_caleb]

exactly. but dont worry if you simply "get educated" or lectured by the right person then you too can not be racist!

the whole thing comes down to a world view where some people think that others need to be taught or educated because they just arent informed enough and that when they are forced to learn things then they'll change their minds. they basically use the plot of 1984 as a guidemap.

I recommend you stick to expressing your own opinions rather than trying to summarize the views of others.

 

[rylouisbo]

I recommend you stick to expressing your own opinions rather than trying to summarize the views of others.

yes that is my own opinion of how people are acting here. ya'll think that anyone that disagrees is uninformed and should be given a lesson so they can agree with you. its the plot of 1984.

"Several posters have written about routinely using common phrases that they did not know were racist until someone explained the origins of the phrases to them."

your quote...

ya'll think that its your job to teach people whats correct. as i said we disagree not becuase we dont understand we disagree because we think youre wrong in your opinion. people here have wildly different definitions of what is racist and what is not and what is offensive and what is not.

instead of just understanding that people will disagree that whats offensive to you is not to me and accepting that others might enjoy something you hate, they want to guilt/shame/chastise/belittle them until they agree to their standard.

i find that divisive and problematic.