Jungle Cruise next?

[ohioguy]

I can see both sides of the argument really.

On the one hand there were people who head hunted, it's not like Disney has made it up to insult or offend anyone. It adds a bit of drama to the story of the attraction and is done so in a humorous way. It's based on history just the same as there were pirates, and there still are pirates.

On the other hand, could somebody claim it's misrepresenting people from parts of Africa (among many other countries) implying chopping off heads is what they're famous for? I imagine a tiny minority of people could say that, but I imagine it's a tiny minority if any.

Certainly I cannot see anyone who isn't already racist, taking what Disney has done including a headhunter and have that make them look at black people differently. I also can't really see intelligent people from Africa going on the attraction and genuinely being offended by the fact that Disney has included a headhunter in the attraction? In life there always will be somebody, somewhere that will be offended by anything. For instance if we watch war films, we often see scenes where allied troops shoot unarmed Germans because they killed their friends. This certainly happened in the war however including it in the movie isn't saying every allied soldier shot every unarmed German, nor that it was all that allied troops contributed or were famous for. It's part of a historical story, included not to offend anyone from the allied countries but just because it actually happened.

For the most part, headhunting tribes have ceased to exist in the modern age. I'm sure there are outliers, but modernization and the spread of missionary works have helped to quell the need for trophies. In fact, the last major "headhunting" was US soldiers during Vietnam; perhaps we need an historical representation of American GI's scalping the Viet Cong? I mean, if you want accuracy.

Again, empathy requires that one question the "why?" of the offense. Why is someone offended by "Song of the South"? Why might someone not like the characterization of African tribes or Pacific Islanders as headhunters? Why are cowboys the heroes and Native Americans the villains? Have your ancestors been treated as savages?

Everyone assumes it's the erasure of history, but ultimately it's coming to grips with the fact that history is written by the victors, and their story has a lot of flaws.

 

[Buck Wheelie]

For the most part, headhunting tribes have ceased to exist in the modern age.

That's not true, I just saw them on Gilligan's Island.

Seriously why would anyone be offended by this? Its just another case of someone deciding they are going to be offended by something. There are many attractions at Disney people could take offense with. Its part of history so lets learn from it.

 

[mergatroid]

For the most part, headhunting tribes have ceased to exist in the modern age. I'm sure there are outliers, but modernization and the spread of missionary works have helped to quell the need for trophies. In fact, the last major "headhunting" was US soldiers during Vietnam; perhaps we need an historical representation of American GI's scalping the Viet Cong? I mean, if you want accuracy.

Again, empathy requires that one question the "why?" of the offense. Why is someone offended by "Song of the South"? Why might someone not like the characterization of African tribes or Pacific Islanders as headhunters? Why are cowboys the heroes and Native Americans the villains? Have your ancestors been treated as savages?

Everyone assumes it's the erasure of history, but ultimately it's coming to grips with the fact that history is written by the victors, and their story has a lot of flaws.

Well I've already said I can see both sides of the argument, however where do we draw the line? I'm British, Americans often claim the Brits have terrible teeth (some do). Should all movies featuring this now be edited to prevent Brits being offended by these jokes? Using empathy, how would a Brit who has terrible teeth feel when these jokes are made?

I assume common sense is used in my example, which is that the number being offended is so minimal that what's the big deal. As a Brit I can laugh at those jokes realising that they're used not to offend or upset, just as a bit of friendly 'banter'. Likewise how many people do you think have genuinely felt offended by the headhunter scene?

I get that there's differences between different examples in this debate, I'm not trying to over simplify discrimination or racism. Certain stereotypes can offend and certainly black people have reason to feel like they're not respected as much as white people are in both Britain and America. I asked my black friend from work what he thought about the complaint on the radio about the headhunter to get his take on it. His response (toning down the language) was "What the ........., do people have nothing better to do than worry about this stuff. It actually winds me up because it kind of belittles genuine racism". Now I'm not claiming that just because he has that view that he represents the view of every black person, that would be ridiculous. But it does kind of match my viewpoint which is does it really offend and where do we draw the line. It's an interesting debate and probably right and wrong answers in both camps, sometimes though I think people look a bit too hard to find 'problems'.

 

[ohioguy]

Well I've already said I can see both sides of the argument, however where do we draw the line? I'm British, Americans often claim the Brits have terrible teeth (some do). Should all movies featuring this now be edited to prevent Brits being offended by these jokes? Using empathy, how would a Brit who has terrible teeth feel when these jokes are made?

I assume common sense is used in my example, which is that the number being offended is so minimal that what's the big deal. As a Brit I can laugh at those jokes realising that they're used not to offend or upset, just as a bit of friendly 'banter'. Likewise how many people do you think have genuinely felt offended by the headhunter scene?

I get that there's differences between different examples in this debate, I'm not trying to over simplify discrimination or racism. Certain stereotypes can offend and certainly black people have reason to feel like they're not respected as much as white people are in both Britain and America. I asked my black friend from work what he thought about the complaint on the radio about the headhunter to get his take on it. His response (toning down the language) was "What the ........., do people have nothing better to do than worry about this stuff. It actually winds me up because it kind of belittles genuine racism". Now I'm not claiming that just because he has that view that he represents the view of every black person, that would be ridiculous. But it does kind of match my viewpoint which is does it really offend and where do we draw the line. It's an interesting debate and probably right and wrong answers in both camps, sometimes though I think people look a bit too hard to find 'problems'.

There's a difference between satire and outright misrepresentation of cultures. One of my favorite shows was "In Living Color". Offensive and off-color as hell. And they made fun of everyone! There's nothing funny about rape scenes in POTC or celebrating the old black slave in SOTS.

 

[lilypgirl]

There's a difference between satire and outright misrepresentation of cultures. One of my favorite shows was "In Living Color". Offensive and off-color as hell. And they made fun of everyone! There's nothing funny about rape scenes in POTC or celebrating the old black slave in SOTS.

Rape scenes in POTC???

 

[Lilofan]

Rape scenes in POTC???

At the Pirates ride , the scene where the female Redd gets sold to the pirates was cleaned up by Disney a few years ago.

 

[lilypgirl]

At the Pirates ride , the scene where the female Redd gets sold to the pirates was cleaned up by Disney a few years ago.

Oh I remember the “we wants the redhead” scene but honestly never got the rape vibe from it. Maybe it was a little misogynistic and was due for an update but I would have never got the rape insinuation from it. As a child I remember riding in a boat packed with my a Disney loving family memebers all chanting that when got to that part. I was sad to see it go but like the changes .

 

[mergatroid]

There's a difference between satire and outright misrepresentation of cultures. One of my favorite shows was "In Living Color". Offensive and off-color as hell. And they made fun of everyone! There's nothing funny about rape scenes in POTC or celebrating the old black slave in SOTS.

Agreed and I more or less said the same in my post. However in the context of the story of the ride (a plane crashes deep in the jungle) you'd hardly expect there to be skyscrapers and Cities there. Instead you'd find tribes of people there many of whom wouldn't live or know of many of the things we do. Does this make them all savages, of course not. However as headhunters existed and are more worthy of a story-line than a tribe who just grow food and hunt all day, it's not a stretch to have them in the adventure. Again how many people do you think are genuinely offended by this scene who attend the park?

As an aside Disney already have a scene of native Americans sitting around not doing much in Frontierland which can be seen from the railroad. They could have had them fighting cowboys but instead show them as the peaceful people they were, so in a way that's Disney showing they can represent people in several ways. I personally don't see a headhunter with some corny joke as a misrepresentation of a culture, not unless you're trying to see it that way. Do we really think many people really leave the attraction thinking "Disney has taught me all African tribes are savages and headhunters"?

 

[mergatroid]

Rape scenes in POTC???

The red head was being auctioned to the highest bidder. If you allow your mind to go through the process of what the buyer wants her for, then it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it's not just for a companion or cleaner. It says a bit about the male mind more than anything but calling it 'The rape scene' is trying to make more out of it than was any intention of the imagineers. It's like calling the manger scene with baby Jesus 'The slaughterhouse scene' on the basis animals were bred in there for food.

 

[Sbk1234]

The red head was being auctioned to the highest bidder. If you allow your mind to go through the process of what the buyer wants her for, then it's not beyond the possibility that it's not just for a companion or cleaner. It says a bit about the male mind more than anything but calling it 'The rape scene' is trying to make more out of it than was any intention of the imagineers. It's like calling the manager scene with baby Jesus 'The slaughterhouse scene' on the basis animals were bred in there for food.

I think the references to the "rape scene" had more to do with the original scene in the attraction where they litterally had pirates chasing women around in a circle. It was played for laughs and left a lot for audience members to piece together based on their own age and knowledge level. As a young kid, I never would have thought specifically rape. But a less naive person could have easily put that connotation together.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

The racist elements of all the attractions need to go. It's 2021 and the old, tired subversive racism and sexism is out the window.

Hall of Presidents needs re-themed to make the attraction more exciting. They really should hire Lin-Manuel Miranda for this one.

Jungle Cruise will be redone if and when The Rock movie proves successful. The headhunter needs to go. The attraction has been stale since the opening of Animal Kingdom.

Can't wait for the re-themed Splash Mountain. Will be epic.

So what is the point of having lands and attractions from a different era if all you want to do is just make them politically correct to 2021's standards. Here is something to ponder, you survived your childhood going through Jungle Cruise without getting off the ride and shooting someone or anything like that. Ditto Pirates.

 

[Minnie1976]

There's a difference between satire and outright misrepresentation of cultures. One of my favorite shows was "In Living Color". Offensive and off-color as hell. And they made fun of everyone! There's nothing funny about rape scenes in POTC or celebrating the old black slave in SOTS.

You are sick. People like you look for evil and race in everything. Never once in all the times I rode POTC did I think that. It was an enjoyable attraction just like Splash Mountain because y’all have no idea where the story comes from.

 

[Fable McCloud]

What I find is that this is a double edged sword. We don't want to glorify or erase the mucky parts of our collective past, but there really isn't a middle ground. If you show it as it it used to be, it offends people. If you erase it, you upset those who want historical accuracy. There is no win-win. Someone will always be upset.

I rode PoTC so many times, and even though it was a "Bride Auction" I never got overtly rape/sexual vibes from that implication, because the ride is meant to be funny. I know there is nothing funny about a woman being sold against her will. But the scene wasn't supposed to draw your focus to that, it was meant to be a slightly cleaner depiction of pirates sacking a town. We all know what really happened, but here is a good middle ground between harsh reality and PC fiction.

As a women, I never found issue with this ride in anyway, but maybe it was because I am able to suspend my criticisms and just ride the ride.

Splash Mountain never bothered me because the only things featured in the ride are the animals. The ride told the story of B'rer Rabbit wanting to leave home only to realize it was better to stay put. The characters may have come from the Uncle Remus/Song of the South movie & story, but there were no inappropriate depictions in the ride. Retheming the ride to Princess and the Frog is great, but I would have preferred Tiana got a brand new attraction, rather than simply changing an existing ride.

Jungle Cruise could use some help. It needs to keep the dad jokes. But honestly, I don't think there needs to be any humans in the ride. If they wanted to keep Trader Sam, then I wish they would make him less cartoony and more realistic like at Disneyland. I think the cartoony version looks more like a caricature and that could be offensive to people.

 

[ppete1975]

For the most part, headhunting tribes have ceased to exist in the modern age. I'm sure there are outliers, but modernization and the spread of missionary works have helped to quell the need for trophies. In fact, the last major "headhunting" was US soldiers during Vietnam; perhaps we need an historical representation of American GI's scalping the Viet Cong? I mean, if you want accuracy.

Again, empathy requires that one question the "why?" of the offense. Why is someone offended by "Song of the South"? Why might someone not like the characterization of African tribes or Pacific Islanders as headhunters? Why are cowboys the heroes and Native Americans the villains? Have your ancestors been treated as savages?

Everyone assumes it's the erasure of history, but ultimately it's coming to grips with the fact that history is written by the victors, and their story has a lot of flaws.

Not as uncommon as you think.
There is still north sentinal island where trying to land your boat you wont survive.
There are still people who have never seen an outsider to this day.
Head hunters may not be as prevalent but savages are still around. You have the case of Michael Rockefeller as well.

 

[Kgp0793]

You are sick. People like you look for evil and race in everything. Never once in all the times I rode POTC did I think that. It was an enjoyable attraction just like Splash Mountain because y’all have no idea where the story comes from.

Minnie, you need to calm down...calling people evil on a Disney world forum bc they have a different opinion than you???? Please reevaluate your life

 

[mergatroid]

Article here says that Disney are changing it

 

[Ellen Ripley]

Agreed and I more or less said the same in my post. However in the context of the story of the ride (a plane crashes deep in the jungle) you'd hardly expect there to be skyscrapers and Cities there. Instead you'd find tribes of people there many of whom wouldn't live or know of many of the things we do. Does this make them all savages, of course not. However as headhunters existed and are more worthy of a story-line than a tribe who just grow food and hunt all day, it's not a stretch to have them in the adventure. Again how many people do you think are genuinely offended by this scene who attend the park?

Perhaps you'd be alright with the negative realities of the colonizers to also be inserted into JC?

How Belgium cut off hands and arms, and killed over 15 million in Africa | Texto em inglês com áudio

The Belgium king Leopold II turned a huge piece of Africa into his rural estate, enslaved its people, and left a legacy of misery that lasts until today. Texto em inglês com áudio da Gazeta do Povo.

www.gazetadopovo.com.br

 

[JohnD]

Please no? Phone in on an English radio station talking about changes and Disney was mentioned. Somebody mentioned it was 'racist' having a head hunter with dark skin

Seven months later: Yep.

 

[mergatroid]

Perhaps you'd be alright with the negative realities of the colonizers to also be inserted into JC?

How Belgium cut off hands and arms, and killed over 15 million in Africa | Texto em inglês com áudio

The Belgium king Leopold II turned a huge piece of Africa into his rural estate, enslaved its people, and left a legacy of misery that lasts until today. Texto em inglês com áudio da Gazeta do Povo.

www.gazetadopovo.com.br

If Disney want to put that in an attraction, you wouldn't find me complaining. I'd see it as part of history, though I'm not sure why you're asking me? If the implication is that as I'm European would I be offended then the answer would be "no I wouldn't be offended"? I'm not really into whether white people did this or whether black people did that in life, I judge people on who they are and how they behave. I was attacked by a white guy with red hair many years ago just because he wanted the fun of beating up a stranger. Do I now hate white guys with red hair, of course not.

I have no idea why you're asking me whether it would bother me if a Belgium King that mutilated black slaves be included in the JC though? If they had have done then I'd have probably thought "What a despicable person King Leopold of Belgium was" but my views on present day Belgium's wouldn't change, why would they? I wouldn't think or expect others to think that Disney was portraying everyone from Belgium as mutilators, seriously why would I? I wouldn't think how dare Disney portray a white Belgium king as an evil murderer in an attraction, please explain why I should or would?

If you want to be offended well then that's your prerogative, just as me not being offended is mine. Not everything in life is done to offend. I prefer to look and concentrate on those pathetic individuals who are deliberately racist, or go out of their way to offend others. Believe me, there's enough of those idiots around still to look at and combat. I actually feel that a great many of the people who get all offended about trivial things that were never created to seem racist, seem to actively search for these things. It's as though some of them are in a competition to be more woke and pc than everyone else.

I have a disability and have noticed that those who get most offended by what words are used to describe a person with a disability, are people without a disability! I was actually told once when I was explaining that due to my disability I needed a specific seat that "Sir, the word is differently enabled". I get that there's probably a degree of 'kindness' behind the thought, but that there's also a huge helping of "Oh look at me defending people's feelings without really caring, that makes me look great". So if people are genuinely offended by the headhunter depiction, that's sad. It looks now like Disney is removing that, it doesn't make me lose sleep removing the headhunter. However it just feels like we're getting to a stage where any person can say that they're offended by anything, and everybody else has to agree otherwise they're racist, sexist or homophobic. Again I have no problem with the world becoming a friendlier, more pc and woke place, I welcome that. The danger is though that the demands by people being offended on other people's behalf now seem to be growing to such a degree that it's causing more problems than were originally there to begin with.

 

[NickMaio]

.s

Kwanzaa is a made up holiday by a person that physically abused his captives. I don't need to celebrate that when I am on vacation in Disney World. No thanks!

Your ignorance and rudeness is astounding, even for this forum.