Joe Rohde on Themed Entertainment as Art

[RobWDW1971]

Hey I’m not on trial here. Do you want to judge everything I say or have a discussion.

Who’s your favorite imagineer and why?

Do you just not like Joe for some reason?

Are you not a fan of DAK as a whole?

Just trying to understand the logic - generally speaking, people seem to give all credit for a great attraction, regardless of management's support or insane funding to the Imagineer and then give the Imagineer a free pass on every terrible project.

I am not a fanboy of any particular Imagineer as it is certainly a team effort, but I would certainly say I respect the track record of the projects Tony Baxter has done over the years. That being said, I would give him as much blame for every terrible project as credit for the great ones. I blame Tom Brady for every ugly pick he throws, regardless of the play call as much as credit for the touchdown pass.

In regards to DAK, like all parks it is a mixed bag - the original concept of no signage and "exploring" turned out to be a complete disaster and now the park is overloaded with signage at every turn. Some attractions are great (Everest, FOP), some are just OK (Dinosaur, ITTBAB), and some are terrible and I wouldn't wait five minutes to ride again (Kali River, Navi River, and entire parking lot carnival). The park is certainly lush and lovely, but still a half day park at best, the night show is boring and short, and I'll leave the conversation about whether we should cage wild animals for our amusement to another thread.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Just trying to understand the logic - generally speaking, people seem to give all credit for a great attraction, regardless of management's support or insane funding to the Imagineer and then give the Imagineer a free pass on every terrible project.

I am not a fanboy of any particular Imagineer as it is certainly a team effort, but I would certainly say I respect the track record of the projects Tony Baxter has done over the years. That being said, I would give him as much blame for every terrible project as credit for the great ones. I blame Tom Brady for every ugly pick he throws, regardless of the play call as much as credit for the touchdown pass.

In regards to DAK, like all parks it is a mixed bag - the original concept of no signage and "exploring" turned out to be a complete disaster and now the park is overloaded with signage at every turn. Some attractions are great (Everest, FOP), some are just OK (Dinosaur, ITTBAB), and some are terrible and I wouldn't wait five minutes to ride again (Kali River, Navi River, and entire parking lot carnival). The park is certainly lush and lovely, but still a half day park at best, the night show is boring and short, and I'll leave the conversation about whether we should cage wild animals for our amusement to another thread.

Yes, now that I see your points I agree with you for the most part.

Tony’s great.

I wasn’t trying to give Joe a pass on guardians. Guardians ruins a park like nothing else I can think of. It clashes with everything.

 

[Giss Neric]

Ohhh that makes sense. I’m all for spreading Joe’s Instagram around. I quote it often.

I thought you had just copied and pasted everything and I was like... whoa that’s a lot! Ha.

Don't you share links from other sources? You can literally share links from Tweets, YouTube videos, Instagram posts, and other forms of media here in this forum. All you need is copy link then paste then post.

 

[Tom Morrow]

So in short, when you builds something you like, you give him credit. When he builds something terrible, it is management's or the budget's fault?

Sometimes their hands are wrung into designing things they don't want to. How is this concept beyond your grasp?

 

[MisterPenguin]

Sometimes their hands are wrung into designing things they don't want to. How is this concept beyond your grasp?

I think you mean "hands are forced," which comes from card games which require showing one's cards, such as when someone 'sees your bet' or games in which tricks are taken and one is forced to follow suit.

"Hand wringing" is an expression of worry.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Don't you share links from other sources? You can literally share links from Tweets, YouTube videos, Instagram posts, and other forms of media here in this forum. All you need is copy link then paste then post.

Yes, I didn’t understand how the links worked. I thought that the posts had just been copied and pasted like photos rather than linking to the Instagram. Which was my point... link people to the Instagram rather than just copying and pasting the content. I didn’t realize that it was both, which is a really cool feature!

By the way... since Joe can’t make it to DAK for earth day he’s beginning series of photos / facts about the park so it’s a great time to use those links to follow along!

 

[Tom Morrow]

I think you mean "hands are forced," which comes from card games which require showing one's cards, such as when someone 'sees your bet' or games in which tricks are taken and one is forced to follow suit.

"Hand wringing" is an expression of worry.

I don't think either of those work, now that I think about it. Whatever the expression is for "forced to comply and build what the pencil pushers want."

It's very clear to me that if Joe were given complete control over what gets built, everything would be Anandapur/Harambe/Pandora levels of detail and immersion. Joe loves to pack his themed environments with esoteric details. You may not know what exactly you're looking at, but you know it has meaning, and this is why his themed environments feel alive and real and why I feel he is on a higher level than the rest of current TWDC.

Knocking him because Eisner-era corporate said "we're adding some carnival rides to your park, deal with it and come up with a story for them" is extremely unfair.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

My view that painting is an art is not invalidated by me being a lousy painter.

Just quoting this because it's your shortest post.

There is a certain subtext in Rohde's essay. Namely, that the status of 'art' is something to aspire to. He seeks the stamp of approval of those he correctly identifies as not interested in his field.

'Art' may be the highest accolade a person in a creative industry desires. Nowadays. But this has not always been the case. Art as pinnacle of expression is as much a Romantic era invention as, by necessity because of it's very invention, the split between art and craftsmanship, between art for art's sake and art as profession. The very distinctions that lead to the dismissal of themed entertainment as a form of art. Rohde is correct to understand the historical dimension of this distinction. But why not accept it? Why should the themed entertainment professional strive to be a lone, tormented genius compelled to express the turmoil of his inner suffering through creative expression? Or to make his work subordinate to the goal of exposing and overthrowing power? Are these 19th respectively 20th century concepts of pure art really all that covetable?

I'd sooner find a place for themed entertainment amongst the fields of design. Or movie industry - sound, art direction, cgi. Or games development. All areas that similarly are not accepted as art forms by academia either. But that nevertheless overwhelmingly are the forward drivers of modern form, of contemporary artistic expression. These are the modes of artistic creative expression that catch and dictate the public imagination. That attract the brightest and trendiest of creatives. That are at the vanguard of permanent cross-pollination between technology and artistry.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Why should the themed entertainment professional strive to be a lone, tormented genius compelled to express the turmoil of his inner suffering through creative expression?

Because there is perceived status and prestige with becoming the "Artist" and not just an employee (aka craftsman) whether deserved or not.

Like all communities, there has always been self imposed gate keeping within the art world and its related academia. That's why popular entertainment has historically been denounced. It's common, and therefore doesn't deserve to be considered "Art".

 

[Tom Morrow]

movies are art, television (some) is art, video games are art, themed entertainment is art. I don't know how someone could walk through DAK (sans Dinorama) and think of it as anything else.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

movies are art, television (some) is art, video games are art, themed entertainment is art. I don't know how someone could walk through DAK (sans Dinorama) and think of it as anything else.

In the case of DAK:

- It's built for tourists, a mass audience with low taste (the great unwashed)
- It's plastic/fake
- It puts animals in confinement for human entertainment
- It takes other cultures/minorities and waters them down for middle-class white Americans (ties in with "plastic/fake")
- It pushes a conservation message while being a huge, energy consuming facility

Not saying these are my opinions, but these are criticism that could be said, or have been said about the park.

I also think that if AK were built today, it would be a different park, and not just from an IP standpoint.

 

[RobWDW1971]

In the case of DAK:

- It's built for tourists, a mass audience with low taste (the great unwashed)
- It's plastic/fake
- It puts animals in confinement for human entertainment
- It takes other cultures/minorities and waters them down for middle-class white Americans (ties in with "plastic/fake")
- It pushes a conservation message while being a huge, energy consuming facility

Not saying these are my opinions, but these are criticism that could be said, or have been said about the park.

I also think that if AK were built today, it would be a different park, and not just from an IP standpoint.

And wouldn't hopefully use caged wild animals for our amusement. For a company that pays itself on the back for caring about animal welfare, it's sickening and the height of hypocrisy.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

movies are art, television (some) is art, video games are art, themed entertainment is art. I don't know how someone could walk through DAK (sans Dinorama) and think of it as anything else.

I find DAK a more interesting and more worthwhile creative product than nearly anything I see in a gallery or temporary exhibition in a modern art museum.

But is it art? Is AK Lodge art? Is the DAK parking lot art? (The DAK parking lot is a scripted environment too. Deliberately sparse to contrast with the lush enveloping nature of the Oasis)

Rohde compares the theme park to the theatre production. Which is probably the nearest mode of artistic expression considered a form of art. But the theme park is its own medium.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I also think that if AK were built today, it would be a different park,

DAK, certainly Africa and Asia, are very specific products of an identifiable period and maker. These areas express the settled impressions of a Rough Guide US backpacker of the eighties and nineties. One does not need the explanatory Instagram account, a walk through the park suffices.

One can trace an unmistakable personal artistic expression. The viewer could give a fairly accurate description of the maker. The visitor of DAK knows Rohde as much as the viewer of Wheatfield with Crows knows the isolated torment of Van Gogh's mind. One of the defining elements of art. Which would bring themed design closer to the realm of art.

 

[Chef Mickey]

From the guy who gave us the asphalt parking lot carnival.

I mean, the guy is a legend. The fact this happened has many mitigating circustmances and was not his call.