Is there any restaurant (full service or counter) "In the Parks" that provide value ?

[eliza61nyc]

only insult yourself calling this an argument, tho i suppose you might as well now

you asked what he meant by value - yes, it's a perspective, but there aren't more than a couple definitions of the word and they all pretty much mean the same thing
- instead of appropriately (based on what you had just said) stopping there, you then proceeded to address cost in a vacuum, which is an invalid approach to the op's query and obscures a worthy question.

however, if i had known i was engaging someone who lacked the awareness to consider the thread title as part of the op's intent, i wouldn't have bothered in the first place - so, my apologies

Apology accepted.

 

[joejccva71]

The price at WDW may not be out of line, but the quality of the food has become downright garbage.

Food at:

California Grill
Ohana
Narcoosee's
V&A's
Kona Cafe
Yachtsman Steakhouse
Flying Fish
Shula's
Hollywood Brown Derby
Monsieur Paul
Biergartens
Teppan Edo
Via Napoli
Yak & Yeti
The Boathouse
Homecomin'


ALL disagree with you. Saying the food is downright garbage is a pretty ignorant statement.

 

[Phonedave]

That’s...really not the case as a general rule. I mean, there are venues where that’s true, but I’ve been in food service, and I know that grade of food and I know those preparations. (Hello, Tony’s Town Square.) And when I went to WDW a lot in the mid-90s, that Sysco-grade food philosophy was baked into the damn place. Now, even at the value food courts, you can find, like, a real brick pizza oven going. (And YES, that IS a real brick oven even though it’s clad in stainless steel, don’t @ me.)

It’s not perfect and you can find pre-processed stuff without looking too hard. Nine Dragons and San Angel are unfortunate representatives of this. But the overall ambition of the food situation in the parks is perhaps unprecedented. You look at fast-casual options like Chipotle’s, and their food quality is laughable compared to what, say, Satu’li is attempting. There’s no mass sit-down chain who can even approach what Skipper Canteen is doing in MK. Or an in-park restaurant with selections like they have at Tiffins. Seriously, I can’t get a whole fried fish within 60 miles from where I live, and I live 90 minutes from the Atlantic. And you can get it in a THEME PARK?

You listen to any of the WDW chefs demoing at F&W and you can sense the intense pride they take in what they prepare. I mean, hell, you can find stories of people at Hoop-De-Doo who have a dietary restriction and found a fresh and delicious alternative meal prepared for them.

I’ve eaten at some of the great restaurants of the world (Le Bernadin, and incidentally, everyone should make a pilgrimage to Ceraldi in Wellfleet), and I’ve done many restaurant videos as part of my business and met dozens of great and not so great chefs. I’m not an easy mark, but I know the words you should be hearing when a kitchen is trying. And maybe more than at any time in its history, it sounds like WDW restaurants are trying, which is one of the main reasons I’m excited to go back after so long. That’s pretty damn impressive for a theme park experience.

Maybe some of the food is getting better - and I have not eaten at Skippers Canteen, so I cannot comment on the quality of the food there. The dishes certainly look interesting, but who knows about the food itself.

As for F&W, I have watched them do load-in in the morning. I have seen the desserts come straight out of food service boxes. Maybe you are referring to the additional paid events - if that is the case, I agree with you 100%. Those are excellent, and the chefs are clearly enjoying the ability to create a menu for a limited number of people, who are paying an appropriate price. When the handcuffs are off, they do have some great chefs. When they are handcuffed by the sheer volume they must crank out, and the price constraints of the DDP, then there is only so much they can do.

A whole fried fish is nothing really special, at least in my opinion. It can be. I have had some really great whole fried fish, and I have had some that were phoned in. You can make them from previously frozen fish, so there is really no reason not to be able to get them anywhere in the country. Now here is a case in point of what you can and cannot do because of crowd size. The whole fried fish at Skippers used to be lion fish, which is a great option - it's interesting, it needs to be killed along our shores (it is a horrible invasive species, and there is a bounty on them in many place, or at least open season), and tasty to boot. However, it is not in consistent supply, because it is an invasive species. Skippers could not keep up with the demand, so now you get a yellow tail snapper. Not a bad fish, but not quite the cache of a lion fish - again, a victim of it's own success.

Again, there are pockets of good food. But the question the OP posed was about value. Even in places where the food is good, the value is not there.

 

[disneygeek90]

Split a large pizza with a few people at Via Napoli. Prince per person comes out almost as less than QS.

 

[Phonedave]

Food at:

California Grill
Ohana
Narcoosee's
V&A's
Kona Cafe
Yachtsman Steakhouse
Flying Fish
Shula's
Hollywood Brown Derby
Monsieur Paul
Biergartens
Teppan Edo
Via Napoli
Yak & Yeti
The Boathouse
Homecomin'


ALL disagree with you. Saying the food is downright garbage is a pretty ignorant statement.

As I said before, my comment about it being garbage was harsh. It is edible. But it is no more quality than your average chain restaurant. When you factor in the pricing, any talk of value goes right out the window, even considering theme park pricing.

Just to comment on a few of your examples

California Grill - CG used to be one of my favorites. But protein quality has gone down and prices through the roof. $75 for a 19oz ribeye. $51 for a filet. Even if it was exceptional beef (which it is not) those prices are downright robbery.

Ohana - This place jumped the shark a long time ago. We used to enjoy eating here. Continuous price increases, coupled with reductions in offerings and some downright poor service has taken it off the list.

V&A's - OK< i will give you this one. The value is there. Every time I have eaten at V&A I walk out feeling as if I got value for my money. It is expensive, but the food and service justifies the price. So I guess the solution is to eat at V&A every night.

Hollywood Brown Derby - I used to love this place. Then they started to follow the CG model of operations. They have reversed the trend lately and food quality has gone up, but not to where it used to be. Meanwhile prices have gone up

Biergartens - Biergarten is a close call. Food is good (even if mass produced) and there is entertainment. But still it is $59 for what amount to a buffet. So, ok, the food here is not garbage. But it is a buffet, and despite the best efforts of anybody working there, it is still held on a steam table, mashed around by other guests, and you are serving yourself your own food. To me, paying $59 for that, even in a theme park, is not value. I can go to a local place, be served a variety of American/German dishes by a wait person, and walk out for about $30-$35 per person, drinks included. If WDW was charging $40 for Biergarten, then I would say it is a good theme park value, but not at $59

Teppan Edo - Maby it has changed since I last ate there, but it was so bad I refused to go back. The chef was horrible as entertainment, the food was underseasoned. As for the sushi, my opinion is, if you can't be bothered to make it in your kitchen, and instead have it pre-packaged, then don't even put it on the menu. Really, it's pre-packaged.

Via Napoli - Again, I will concede some of this. The pizza is a good value. It is very good pizza, and priced in line with theme park prices. Most of their other dishes not so much. They also seem to have a problem with service in this place. Very friendly, but orders are wrong, drinks go missing, and servers disappear for long stretches of time - every time I eat here. But still, this is one of the places in WDW that I do eat at on a regular basis.

Yak & Yeti - They have upped their game lately. The place always seems to be a shambles, but maybe that is part of their theme - not just the decor, but tables and chairs are shoved around, etc. They have improved their food. My understanding is also that while they honor the DDP, they are pretty strict about it. This helps to keep menu pricing aligned with actual food costs, which gets back to the whole value question. Y&Y i also a place that I will frequent. Oddly enough, it is a chain, or well sort of - it's owned by Landry's - which owns a load of chains. When they first opened, they were horrible, really horrible, but they have really improved. I think their prices are high, but theme park high, not highway robbery high. So mea culpa on this one, I would consider Y&Y a good value (especially on your birthday month- then it becomes an even better value with $20 off)


So, yes, I was wrong to paint all of WDW with a broad brush. As I said, my garbage statement was harsh. Food at WDW is not garbage, but it is not high quality / mid-tier restaurant quality either. WDW used to have good dining, with prices that were in line with the park premiums. I could eat at just about any WDW table service restaurants, and come out feeling that the prices were a little high, but the food was good, and I am in a theme park so I expect to pay a bit more - that is value (at least to me).

Ever since the DDP came into its current incarnations, and table service restaurants have become something you have to book months in advance, three factors have happened, which has driven value down. One - restaurants are packed, and because of sheer volume, prep times have to be reduced. This results in less complex preparations and to creating food that can be par-cooked, or held for service. Two - DDP has played havoc with pricing. Chefs are hamstringed by having to work to a specific ceiling for food cost per dish across all dishes. This requires cheaper ingredients - especially with proteins. Finally - the powers that set pricing at WDW restaurants just keep pushing the limits on the upper level of pricing. Higher prices equal less value.

There are a few stand outs - Via Napoli, Yak & Yeti, Trattoria Al Forno, and until recently Artist Point. Yes, AP. It was one of my favorites for a long time (as was CG) and then both went way down hill. AP turned it around in recent years, and I truly enjoyed dining there, even with the pricing. But now its a character dinner

 

[joejccva71]

As I said before, my comment about it being garbage was harsh. It is edible. But it is no more quality than your average chain restaurant. When you factor in the pricing, any talk of value goes right out the window, even considering theme park pricing.

Just to comment on a few of your examples

California Grill - CG used to be one of my favorites. But protein quality has gone down and prices through the roof. $75 for a 19oz ribeye. $51 for a filet. Even if it was exceptional beef (which it is not) those prices are downright robbery.

Ohana - This place jumped the shark a long time ago. We used to enjoy eating here. Continuous price increases, coupled with reductions in offerings and some downright poor service has taken it off the list.

V&A's - OK< i will give you this one. The value is there. Every time I have eaten at V&A I walk out feeling as if I got value for my money. It is expensive, but the food and service justifies the price. So I guess the solution is to eat at V&A every night.

Hollywood Brown Derby - I used to love this place. Then they started to follow the CG model of operations. They have reversed the trend lately and food quality has gone up, but not to where it used to be. Meanwhile prices have gone up

Biergartens - Biergarten is a close call. Food is good (even if mass produced) and there is entertainment. But still it is $59 for what amount to a buffet. So, ok, the food here is not garbage. But it is a buffet, and despite the best efforts of anybody working there, it is still held on a steam table, mashed around by other guests, and you are serving yourself your own food. To me, paying $59 for that, even in a theme park, is not value. I can go to a local place, be served a variety of American/German dishes by a wait person, and walk out for about $30-$35 per person, drinks included. If WDW was charging $40 for Biergarten, then I would say it is a good theme park value, but not at $59

Teppan Edo - Maby it has changed since I last ate there, but it was so bad I refused to go back. The chef was horrible as entertainment, the food was underseasoned. As for the sushi, my opinion is, if you can't be bothered to make it in your kitchen, and instead have it pre-packaged, then don't even put it on the menu. Really, it's pre-packaged.

Via Napoli - Again, I will concede some of this. The pizza is a good value. It is very good pizza, and priced in line with theme park prices. Most of their other dishes not so much. They also seem to have a problem with service in this place. Very friendly, but orders are wrong, drinks go missing, and servers disappear for long stretches of time - every time I eat here. But still, this is one of the places in WDW that I do eat at on a regular basis.

Yak & Yeti - They have upped their game lately. The place always seems to be a shambles, but maybe that is part of their theme - not just the decor, but tables and chairs are shoved around, etc. They have improved their food. My understanding is also that while they honor the DDP, they are pretty strict about it. This helps to keep menu pricing aligned with actual food costs, which gets back to the whole value question. Y&Y i also a place that I will frequent. Oddly enough, it is a chain, or well sort of - it's owned by Landry's - which owns a load of chains. When they first opened, they were horrible, really horrible, but they have really improved. I think their prices are high, but theme park high, not highway robbery high. So mea culpa on this one, I would consider Y&Y a good value (especially on your birthday month- then it becomes an even better value with $20 off)


So, yes, I was wrong to paint all of WDW with a broad brush. As I said, my garbage statement was harsh. Food at WDW is not garbage, but it is not high quality / mid-tier restaurant quality either. WDW used to have good dining, with prices that were in line with the park premiums. I could eat at just about any WDW table service restaurants, and come out feeling that the prices were a little high, but the food was good, and I am in a theme park so I expect to pay a bit more - that is value (at least to me).

Ever since the DDP came into its current incarnations, and table service restaurants have become something you have to book months in advance, three factors have happened, which has driven value down. One - restaurants are packed, and because of sheer volume, prep times have to be reduced. This results in less complex preparations and to creating food that can be par-cooked, or held for service. Two - DDP has played havoc with pricing. Chefs are hamstringed by having to work to a specific ceiling for food cost per dish across all dishes. This requires cheaper ingredients - especially with proteins. Finally - the powers that set pricing at WDW restaurants just keep pushing the limits on the upper level of pricing. Higher prices equal less value.

There are a few stand outs - Via Napoli, Yak & Yeti, Trattoria Al Forno, and until recently Artist Point. Yes, AP. It was one of my favorites for a long time (as was CG) and then both went way down hill. AP turned it around in recent years, and I truly enjoyed dining there, even with the pricing. But now its a character dinner

Appreciate the answer Dave. I'm going back in Feb 2019 and then again in December when SWGE releases, and there are some restaurants that are must do's for us or (me if I'm going solo). CG, Napoli, Narcoosee's, Brown Derby, etc. I do agree with you that the Cowboy Ribeye is insanely priced at CG. I usually get the Oak-fired Filet and I substitute the potatoes for that aged gouda mac and cheese which is the best mac and cheese on property (my opinion).

Went to Teppan Edo in May and it was outstanding, but I have been there before when it wasn't good.

Also, regarding Artist Point, used to love this restaurant but now they're going character dining. Ugh. Just don't understand why.

 

[Ponderer]

Also, regarding Artist Point, used to love this restaurant but now they're going character dining. Ugh. Just don't understand why.

Because pretty much every dining report I've read about it in the last eight years never pictures it as more than half-full, at best. A restaurant like that outside Disney would never survive, and it's sort of amazing it held on in its current incarnation that long.

 

[Ponderer]

As for F&W, I have watched them do load-in in the morning. I have seen the desserts come straight out of food service boxes. Maybe you are referring to the additional paid events - if that is the case, I agree with you 100%. Those are excellent, and the chefs are clearly enjoying the ability to create a menu for a limited number of people, who are paying an appropriate price. When the handcuffs are off, they do have some great chefs. When they are handcuffed by the sheer volume they must crank out, and the price constraints of the DDP, then there is only so much they can do.

A whole fried fish is nothing really special, at least in my opinion. It can be. I have had some really great whole fried fish, and I have had some that were phoned in. You can make them from previously frozen fish, so there is really no reason not to be able to get them anywhere in the country. Now here is a case in point of what you can and cannot do because of crowd size. The whole fried fish at Skippers used to be lion fish, which is a great option - it's interesting, it needs to be killed along our shores (it is a horrible invasive species, and there is a bounty on them in many place, or at least open season), and tasty to boot. However, it is not in consistent supply, because it is an invasive species. Skippers could not keep up with the demand, so now you get a yellow tail snapper. Not a bad fish, but not quite the cache of a lion fish - again, a victim of it's own success.

Again, there are pockets of good food. But the question the OP posed was about value. Even in places where the food is good, the value is not there.

Well, a situation like F&W is almost always a compromise. We get a decent number of these sort of festivals around here (and we have some lovely restaurants in the area), and no one is really happy. I've talked to some of the chefs doing prep for their booths, and they're like, man, "I'm just hoping to do good enough to intrigue them because this situation SUCKS. I'm lucky if I give anyone hot food." I like F&W because it's fun to sample a lot of different things and nibble, but I like to call it "theoretical dining" and I know if there's gonna be anywhere to cut corners, this is gonna be it. (And it's not a great value objectively, but the booths are actually not far out of line from what I've seen from local booths at festivals. I've had the seven dollar plate of three potstickers.

And yes, I'm a damn sucker for potstickers. Stop staring.)

A whole fried fish is fairly special, at least inside of a theme park. It doesn't happen. You certainly aren't getting it at a Red Lobster, which in terms of scale and demographics is right in the strike zone of a theme park restaurant. And in terms of a value proposition, with yellowtail snapper going from $14 to $22 these days, $31 is actually kind of a terrific deal. (I didn't know about the lion fish at Skippers. It's a shame it couldn't work long-term, but I'm very impressed that they're thinking in those terms.)

And you know, you get to freak out the kids when they see the kisser on that fish, which is of course, priceless.

 

[larryz]

I am far from a germaphobe, but this is my complaint with the Plaza. You are a restaurant, that is serving a menu that is heavy on the hand held items (burgers, sandwiches, etc), you are located in a park filled with people, who are touching every surface, and you do not have a bathroom, or at least a place for customers to wash their hands? Yes, you can walk over to the outside bathrooms (especially in the rain) but nobody though a bathroom (even a single person bathroom) might be useful? Other than that complaint, I do think the Plaza is a decent place to get a simple bite. It's a limited menu, but then I suspect the kitchen is the size of a postage stamp.



-dave

We saw hand sanitizer stations at just about every food service venue we visited last week.

 

[larryz]

Food at:

California Grill
Ohana
Narcoosee's
V&A's
Kona Cafe
Yachtsman Steakhouse
Flying Fish
Shula's
Hollywood Brown Derby
Monsieur Paul
Biergartens
Teppan Edo
Via Napoli
Yak & Yeti
The Boathouse
Homecomin'


ALL disagree with you. Saying the food is downright garbage is a pretty ignorant statement.

Add The Jungle Cruise Skipper Canteen. We enjoyed everything we ate there last week.

...and I have not eaten at Skippers Canteen, so I cannot comment on the quality of the food there. The dishes certainly look interesting, but who knows about the food itself.

I have so I can. We liked the food, and we tend to enjoy Asian and Pan-Asian style foods.

 

[Think Tink]

If you think Disney is expensive*, try a pizza at a Cedar Fair park...

* and it is...

You speak the truth. But I will never NOT buy a La Rosa's pizza from Kings Island when I go.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

If you're getting the free ice water....yes. Otherwise..nope.

Define "value". The food is not terrible. But I don't consider it a "value". It's on par with what you'd find at similar locations. No better - No worse....but that's an entirely different conversation altogether.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

I'm rethinking my position. Again based on the definition of "value". I can get a burger, fries and a soda at Cosmic Ray's, Publick House, Electric Umbrella, etc.. Going to run me about $16-18. I can get the same at Deluxe or Cooke's for maybe $2 more. But I get a much better burger. So there's my value. Same for Flame Tree vs Polite Pig. Flame Tree is not bad for a QS park joint. Polite is better. So for the slightly additional money - there is some value. Overpriced - yes. But this is about value.

 

[MisterPenguin]

You can make an "all you care to eat" meal a bargain for you if you eat enough of it. Can't wait for all the turkey I care to eat at Liberty Tree in December when I go again...

Also, WDW still allows you to bring in your own food. It's not a total trap.

 

[MuteSuperstar]

You speak the truth. But I will never NOT buy a La Rosa's pizza from Kings Island when I go.

Oh absolutely! And yes their prices on the (much-smaller-than-and-not-quite-as-good-they-were-in-the-80s) slices would make Disney blush. For now.

 

[Dad 2 M & M]

Where did he make that assumption? If your a millionaire or a pauper value is still value and how much money in your pocket has nothing to do with your ability to enjoy or perceive "value". That said I think what he is really asking is if there are any "values" on par with what you find outside the parks. For instance, Jiko is for sure not cheap, but finding a comparable place in Orlando is a challenge and the food is on par with a high end restaurant anywhere...thus value?

Just want to point out the OP doesn't know opportunity cost has nothing to do with $$$. The "cost" in Opportunity Cost, is time and is the opportunity you "lost" by choosing the other option.

 

[Dad 2 M & M]

A couple of TS we consider a Value:

Epcot - Marrakesh
AK - Flametree - buy any of the meat combos and split
DHS - ABC Commissary - Same as Flametree, and the food is much better than in the past

 

[drp4video]

I did not read through all the posts and don't know if this was suggested, but you can always get a kids meal.

 

[Phonedave]

We saw hand sanitizer stations at just about every food service venue we visited last week.

It's not the germs. It is the fact that I have been touching who knows what with my hands and now I am eating a sandwich.

Again, it gets back to value and experience. I have done my fair share of camping and hiking and hunting. I have eaten food with dirt, blood, gunpowder residue, and who knows what else on my hands. Maybe I cleaned them in a stream or snowbank first, maybe not. I can also tell you that if you eat an a apple after using your hands to apply 100% DEET to your face, your mouth goes numb. So clearly I am not all up in arms about germs.

But, when I go to a table service restaurant, especially one where most of the food on the menu is hand held, it is nice to wash your hands. Given the fact that you are likely coming in sweaty and having touched many surfaces that thousands of other people have touched, hand sanitizer is not going to cut it. I would rather have running water but no soap than hand sanitize.

-dave

 

[Phonedave]

Well, a situation like F&W is almost always a compromise. We get a decent number of these sort of festivals around here (and we have some lovely restaurants in the area), and no one is really happy. I've talked to some of the chefs doing prep for their booths, and they're like, man, "I'm just hoping to do good enough to intrigue them because this situation SUCKS. I'm lucky if I give anyone hot food." I like F&W because it's fun to sample a lot of different things and nibble, but I like to call it "theoretical dining" and I know if there's gonna be anywhere to cut corners, this is gonna be it. (And it's not a great value objectively, but the booths are actually not far out of line from what I've seen from local booths at festivals. I've had the seven dollar plate of three potstickers.

And yes, I'm a damn sucker for potstickers. Stop staring.)

A whole fried fish is fairly special, at least inside of a theme park. It doesn't happen. You certainly aren't getting it at a Red Lobster, which in terms of scale and demographics is right in the strike zone of a theme park restaurant. And in terms of a value proposition, with yellowtail snapper going from $14 to $22 these days, $31 is actually kind of a terrific deal. (I didn't know about the lion fish at Skippers. It's a shame it couldn't work long-term, but I'm very impressed that they're thinking in those terms.)

And you know, you get to freak out the kids when they see the kisser on that fish, which is of course, priceless.

I suspect that a lack of whole fried fish at many chain restaurants is more because of the logistic of frying, than the skill required for perpetration or the sourcing of the fish. My Rotary Club does an Oktoberfest fundraiser every year. I don't get involved with the food (running the beverage tent is enough hassle for me). But two years ago we had chicken schnitzel on the menu. It was a huge hit (300 or so units were sold during the 8 hours event) but then it was off the menu for the last two years. The member who is in charge of the food says it was too much of a liability. We use the High School culinary students as volunteers during the event. Kids and deep fryers are not a good mix. In addition, we had increased costs from additional fire regulations because of the fryers. Now granted, a restaurant is going to have all the fire equipment in place, but you are going to need additional fryers for the fish, if you don't already have a fried fish on the menu.

You would think Red Lobster would do it - they fry everything else under the sun. I suspect it does not appeal to their target demographic. They go for the bread and fry crowd. I wonder how much of their broiled stuff is actually sold compared to fried.

I honestly have no real idea why chains don't do who fried fish. It is nice to see it on a theme park menu.

I used to order broiled fish collars (half a head) at this Japanese place near where I used to live. It used to freak the kids out. Back before people got wind of how good face meat was, I could get them for something like $6. One of those, some rice, and a table by the sushi conveyor belt - perfect!

-dave