Is Phase 2 (or 1B) About to Begin...?

[Tom]

I thought I read on here somewhere that since LM is using existing 20K walls, it's technically not new construction. More like a really huge remodel.

I don't think that would fly at all. They file permits to replace ice machines. There's no way they'd skip something like the LM ride. I imagine they just rolled it in with one of the other Phase 1 permits - or it was just an oversight. With everything starting at once, Orange County may not have even realized they never filed a notice for LM.

 

[SeaCastle]

I thought I read on here somewhere that since LM is using existing 20K walls, it's technically not new construction. More like a really huge remodel.

I don't think that would fly at all. They file permits to replace ice machines. There's no way they'd skip something like the LM ride. I imagine they just rolled it in with one of the other Phase 1 permits - or it was just an oversight. With everything starting at once, Orange County may not have even realized they never filed a notice for LM.

I read that on Jim Hill's site, too. You can see in aerial photographs that there are two walls left up that they've built around, and from what I understand, you can save permitting fees by leaving two construction walls up, thus labelling it as a renovation rather than a totally new construction. Or I'm totally wrong.

 

[Frau Farbissina]

Is there a time limit on these permits? If it's fairly flexible, it makes sense that any work that will take place after the holidays is being officially set in motion now, particularly given how difficult it becomes to get anything done through government channels between Thanksgiving and New Year's.

 

[Tom]

Is there a time limit on these permits? If it's fairly flexible, it makes sense that any work that will take place after the holidays is being officially set in motion now, particularly given how difficult it becomes to get anything done through government channels between Thanksgiving and New Year's.

These two Notices, specifically, do not have expiration dates on them. Typically, a filing of this kind (either permit or notice) is valid for one year, meaning you must START construction within one year of the date of filing.

They may very well be getting the paperwork done early to avoid the holidays, and then hit the ground running in early January.

Then again, maybe Barnstormer will all be night work (since we've been told it's merely getting a new theme). And they'll probably keep the current Dumbo open the entire time they're building the new queue tent and second spinner - then close it to move it (later next year). Other than the fence around the new Dumbo area, they can work right through the holidays without disruption to guests.

 

[Frau Farbissina]

These two Notices, specifically, do not have expiration dates on them. Typically, a filing of this kind (either permit or notice) is valid for one year, meaning you must START construction within one year of the date of filing.

They may very well be getting the paperwork done early to avoid the holidays, and then hit the ground running in early January.

Then again, maybe Barnstormer will all be night work (since we've been told it's merely getting a new theme). And they'll probably keep the current Dumbo open the entire time they're building the new queue tent and second spinner - then close it to move it (later next year). Other than the fence around the new Dumbo area, they can work right through the holidays without disruption to guests.

Thanks. What do you think about the rumor that Toontown will close in Feb? Wouldn't it make sense to start as soon as the holidays are over in January?

 

[Tom]

Thanks. What do you think about the rumor that Toontown will close in Feb? Wouldn't it make sense to start as soon as the holidays are over in January?

Well, given that rumor (which I completely forgot about), it would all mesh together nicely.

For such a major shutdown, it's odd that Disney wouldn't have posted the closures on their calendars by now. Maybe they're waiting for Anna's announcement before they stir things up by posting the closing of TT.

 

[muteki]

Maybe Anna was right. Maybe there will be an announcement soon.

Maybe they're waiting for Anna's announcement before they stir things up by posting the closing of TT.

Apologies for my ignorance, but what is this in reference to? Is an announcement in regards to FLE/TT expected soon?

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Apologies for my ignorance, but what is this in reference to? Is an announcement in regards to FLE/TT expected soon?

It has to do with this thread where someone claimed they spoke with a CM named Anna at WDW who was "in the know" about upcoming changes and park announcements.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=652603

 

[Tom]

Apologies for my ignorance, but what is this in reference to? Is an announcement in regards to FLE/TT expected soon?

Sorry. What hpyhnt1000 said.

I'll stop beating that dead horse :lol:

 

[vonpluto]

I read that on Jim Hill's site, too. You can see in aerial photographs that there are two walls left up that they've built around, and from what I understand, you can save permitting fees by leaving two construction walls up, thus labelling it as a renovation rather than a totally new construction. Or I'm totally wrong.

You can’t be totally wrong, after all, you’re from Joisey!:wave:

I’ve been in construction here in Ocean City for thirty years. In my experience, the type of job has no bearing on the requirement for a permit. It has become more restrictive as time goes by. At one time you could replace a window or a door without a permit, today you had better have that card displayed on the job.

The “it’s a renovation” angle affects a job in two ways I can think of.
Most codes (BOCA, UCC, etc) provide for a percentage at which code requirements change. Above that number all mechanicals, electrical, plumbing, etc must be brought up to code. Below, existing can be re-used, which provides a cost savings.
The other is zoning. Here in OC, ground is at a premium, so the bigger brings more $. At one time, developers would partially demo, then “renovate” to the existing buildings zoning. This would allow using older setbacks, setbacks and height restrictions, in effect letting the developer get more for his buck. That’s all changed, current zoning rules, exceptions only permitted by variance.

I don’t think either of these apply to LMA.

 

[yensid67]

Am I the only one that didn't know there were addresses in MK:lookaroun

Hey Guys,
Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth on the subject of addresses for the MK. I did a little probing on BING maps and I found that each of the addresses for HM, HoP, Dumbo and Barnstormer are the same location, at least on the BING map site. This location is at the security guard gate leading into the rear of 20,000 construction site. For those who know, the security guard shack was moved from near the Cast Parking Lot to its current location a few years ago. Which kind of makes it nicer for those just driving around the park to do, before you had to have a reason for entering through the security gates to go to Grand Floridian or wherever!

Well, this was my few words, and the one post IS right...THIS SITE ROCKS! I cannot wait until my WDW vacation...only 755 Days...yes I am retentive and have a countdown clock on my desktop to remind me everyday!:ROFLOL:

Have a Magical Day!

Will
:wave: from Pennsylvania

 

[Tom]

You can’t be totally wrong, after all, you’re from Joisey!:wave:

I’ve been in construction here in Ocean City for thirty years. In my experience, the type of job has no bearing on the requirement for a permit. It has become more restrictive as time goes by. At one time you could replace a window or a door without a permit, today you had better have that card displayed on the job.

The “it’s a renovation” angle affects a job in two ways I can think of.
Most codes (BOCA, UCC, etc) provide for a percentage at which code requirements change. Above that number all mechanicals, electrical, plumbing, etc must be brought up to code. Below, existing can be re-used, which provides a cost savings.
The other is zoning. Here in OC, ground is at a premium, so the bigger brings more $. At one time, developers would partially demo, then “renovate” to the existing buildings zoning. This would allow using older setbacks, setbacks and height restrictions, in effect letting the developer get more for his buck. That’s all changed, current zoning rules, exceptions only permitted by variance.

I don’t think either of these apply to LMA.

Excellent points.

In Indiana, a similar scenario applies when producing the drawings for a project. If you change anything that has to do with Life Safety, or anything MEP, you have to file the drawings with the state, in order to get a Design Release.

Then you take your release to the Authority Having Jurisdiction (either the County, Township or Town - whichever is smallest) to get a building permit.

I don't think we have the "Notice of Commencement" system here (at least not in any counties we've worked in), so if we file for a permit in our local Town, we don't ALSO have to tell the county (unless the project acreage is large enough to warrant a review by the County Drainage Board, but that's an entirely different animal).

Building up against two concrete walls from an attraction that was torn down two decades ago doesn't constitute a remodel in any sense of the word. But that's a moot point, because there have been "Notices" filed for all types of work - from kitchen equipment to remodels to new.

I'm confident they either lumped LM into one of the Phase 1 permits (by proxy or otherwise) - or it was purely an oversight by all parties.

 

[Master Yoda]

I read that on Jim Hill's site, too. You can see in aerial photographs that there are two walls left up that they've built around, and from what I understand, you can save permitting fees by leaving two construction walls up, thus labelling it as a renovation rather than a totally new construction. Or I'm totally wrong.

You can’t be totally wrong, after all, you’re from Joisey!:wave:

I’ve been in construction here in Ocean City for thirty years. In my experience, the type of job has no bearing on the requirement for a permit. It has become more restrictive as time goes by. At one time you could replace a window or a door without a permit, today you had better have that card displayed on the job.

The “it’s a renovation” angle affects a job in two ways I can think of.
Most codes (BOCA, UCC, etc) provide for a percentage at which code requirements change. Above that number all mechanicals, electrical, plumbing, etc must be brought up to code. Below, existing can be re-used, which provides a cost savings.
The other is zoning. Here in OC, ground is at a premium, so the bigger brings more $. At one time, developers would partially demo, then “renovate” to the existing buildings zoning. This would allow using older setbacks, setbacks and height restrictions, in effect letting the developer get more for his buck. That’s all changed, current zoning rules, exceptions only permitted by variance.

I don’t think either of these apply to LMA.

I have seen builders go to some serious extremes here in Florida to get a job classified as a remodel which leads me to believe that there is a good reason to do so. Unfortunately I do not know exactly what these advantages are. From what I have been able to gather over the last 15 years in the construction business in Florida the advantages seem to range in everything from permit and inspection cost to zoning and code allowances. Bottom line is in a project this big Disney is not going to leave up a few linear feet of existing wall unless they can either benefit form it financially of had to due to some legal or code reason.

 

[BriEcho3194]

Wow this seems interesting. So it does kinda seem like its starting soon maybe after the holidays? IDK but it may happen soon from what I see but what do I know.

 

[SeaCastle]

You can’t be totally wrong, after all, you’re from Joisey!:wave:

I’ve been in construction here in Ocean City for thirty years. In my experience, the type of job has no bearing on the requirement for a permit. It has become more restrictive as time goes by. At one time you could replace a window or a door without a permit, today you had better have that card displayed on the job.

The “it’s a renovation” angle affects a job in two ways I can think of.
Most codes (BOCA, UCC, etc) provide for a percentage at which code requirements change. Above that number all mechanicals, electrical, plumbing, etc must be brought up to code. Below, existing can be re-used, which provides a cost savings.
The other is zoning. Here in OC, ground is at a premium, so the bigger brings more $. At one time, developers would partially demo, then “renovate” to the existing buildings zoning. This would allow using older setbacks, setbacks and height restrictions, in effect letting the developer get more for his buck. That’s all changed, current zoning rules, exceptions only permitted by variance.

I don’t think either of these apply to LMA.

Thanks for the insight...just wondering, in the OC do you have to design by the Coastal Engineering Manual, and wouldn't renovations need to be watched more closely to conform to building codes? (We sure are catching a lucky break, we haven't had "The Big One" come yet.)

 

[Tom]

I have seen builders go to some serious extremes here in Florida to get a job classified as a remodel which leads me to believe that there is a good reason to do so. Unfortunately I do not know exactly what these advantages are. From what I have been able to gather over the last 15 years in the construction business in Florida the advantages seem to range in everything from permit and inspection cost to zoning and code allowances. Bottom line is in a project this big Disney is not going to leave up a few linear feet of existing wall unless they can either benefit form it financially of had to due to some legal or code reason.

I can understand trying to avoid the hassle and (especially) cost of a permit for small construction firms or clients, when doing a small remodel (i.e. a $1500 permit is a huge waste of money when a total Tenant Improvement cost might be only $10-15k and take a week to do).

But a project of this magnitude, and with this budget - the cost of filing a "Notice" with the county is negligible.

Furthermore, these are just "notices" and not actual permits. They're actually filing for the permits with RCID, and are merely letting the county know they're doing work with these "Notices" - right? Like I said, we don't have such a thing here, so maybe a Notice of Commencement is more major than I've gathered.

Does anyone know if an actual permit was obtained from RCID for LM?

 

[danlb_2000]

When putting together the post summarizing the FLE permits I ran across this one called MK - Entertainment building at at 1290 Magic Kingdom Dr.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagleweb/downloads
/20100629847.pdf?parent=DOC668S39363&id=DOC668S39363.A0

Since Barnstormer is 1300 I wonder if this could be related to Little Mermaid.

 

[Tom]

When putting together the post summarizing the FLE permits I ran across this one called MK - Entertainment building at at 1290 Magic Kingdom Dr.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagleweb/downloads
/20100629847.pdf?parent=DOC668S39363&id=DOC668S39363.A0

Since Barnstormer is 1300 I wonder if this could be related to Little Mermaid.

SeaCastle and I also wondered what this permit was for. It was just filed a few days ago, so it's safe to assume it's not for LM.

There is a small building behind the TT tents where the characters get dressed, take breaks, etc - technically making it an "entertainment" facility.

That's what we came up with anyway.

 

[juan]

I have seen builders go to some serious extremes here in Florida to get a job classified as a remodel which leads me to believe that there is a good reason to do so. Unfortunately I do not know exactly what these advantages are. From what I have been able to gather over the last 15 years in the construction business in Florida the advantages seem to range in everything from permit and inspection cost to zoning and code allowances. Bottom line is in a project this big Disney is not going to leave up a few linear feet of existing wall unless they can either benefit form it financially of had to due to some legal or code reason.

Isn't the LM "remodel" doing the same thing that Universal Hollywood is doing for the Transformers ride?
They went to a lot of effort to keep a wall of the old Backdraft when it would have been easier to tear the whole thing down.
There must be some permitting advantage.

 

[Tom]

Isn't the LM "remodel" doing the same thing that Universal Hollywood is doing for the Transformers ride?
They went to a lot of effort to keep a wall of the old Backdraft when it would have been easier to tear the whole thing down.
There must be some permitting advantage.

I've always thought that they left the north and east walls of the 20K show building for structural reasons. Perhaps they're acting as retaining walls for the adjacent soil - one side or the other.

I can't imagine that they'd go to any sort of extreme lengths to avoid a permit worth a couple thousand dollars, or just to avoid a few minutes of paperwork. No matter what, the new facility must comply with all current building codes applicable to that jurisdiction (which would be the EPCOT Building Code). In no way, shape or form would that facility be "grandfathered" because two exterior walls remained from an old ride. That's not a remodel by any definition.

Now, if someone can show documentation that contradicts what I'm saying, I'll take my shoe off and eat it (with ketchup). :lol: