Is Disney complacent , and back on its heels

DABIGCHEEZ

Well-Known Member
I agree with the OP that for the past many years, Disney has not been leading edge on much. The problem is that Disney has much more name recognition than the others and because of that in most peoples eye Disney means "the best" to the average guest. And obviously by the attendance #s , people are still going in droves because of this.
Many of us that have experienced WDW for a long period of time, know better. We know that Disney was at one time the true leader in innovating, cutting edge attractions. Hopefully, those times will return at some point... but if the turnstiles are still spinning(or should I say Magicbands being waved), I doubt it.
 

DManRightHere

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that Disney is now reactionary and not leading edge. They seem to rush new rides into service to keep with UStudios only to have to make changes shortly after opening them. They seem to be behind universal now. They are chasing UStudios instead of U chasing them. Harry Potter was answered by the expansion of MK.
And I don.t think it was a wow! There next chance will be the Aviatar land, will it be a wow?

Ask this again in 5-8 years.

My opinion is Disney is still leaps ahead, but Universal is definitely working on making it a game.
 

Mouse_Trap

Well-Known Member
No one is even talking massive whole changes, but they should look to invest in at least one e-ticket attraction every two years. Disney in the last decade have only produced a mild coaster for Magic Kingdom - disgraceful.

For a beast the size of WDW I think even that is insufficient. Between the four parks there should be a minimum of one new E-ticket each year to 18 months.

Under your suggestion, that each park getting a new major attraction every 8 years. I don't think that's enough, though admittedly it would be a massive improvement on the current regime (1 e-ticket over 9 years ago, and none on the horizon).


A couple of points....

I would not expect huge thrills or a hyper coaster at a stateside Disney park anytime soon. Disney would appear to be aiming at the much larger family demo vs the much smaller teen/young adult thrill seeking one. The last big thrill they did was M:S and it turned out to be too extreme and got far too much negative publicity.

What is going up in Pandora are 2 attractions that 90% +/- of the guests walking through the front gates can ride and IMHO that is a good thing. Having an attraction with a 48" or greater height restriction locks out your average kid 7 or under. Along with that would also be one adult that would either not want to ride as well or could not because someone needs to watch little Timmy while the rest of the family rides "The Face Melter" hyper-coaster.

I though California Screamin' was a pretty good coaster, admittedly non at all well themed. Anything in that category would be nice, but I still think a flying coaster would have suited Avatarland perfectly. Heck, it could have been a tame one without inversion even. Much better then the simulator that they are building.


To your point, how many people would come to Uni from overseas if Disney didn't exist?

How many overseas people would come to Orlando full stop without Disney. Not many I wouldn't think.


That's misleading and is just a function of how percentages work.

Example: Assume Disney has 3,000 guests and Universal has 1,000 guests. Disney has 75% of the market (3,000 of a total 4,000).

Now, assume Disney adds 400 guests and Universal adds 300 guests. Disney grew by 13% and Universal grew by 30%. Disney's market share falls to 72% (3,400 of a total 4,700). You think Disney cares about that? Universal grew by a larger percentage and appears to have "taken" market share from Disney, but it's all an illusion created by the fact that Universal's growth is off a much smaller base. Disney still added more people (i.e. more dollars). Universal didn't "take" anything.

I agree in general, but it's no longer as much the case as it was pre-Potter. Universal's "old" model was to try and steal a day or two from a family's week-long (or international family's two-week-long) WDW vacation and turn it into an "Orlando" vacation. With Potter, there are definitely folks going down to Universal strictly for Universal's sake. But the argument on the other side of the spectrum (that Universal is "taking" guests from Disney) is absolutely false.

I think Universal is indeed taking. They are taking former WDW visitors up the I-4....however, they are being replaced more that 1:1 with new visitors.
Also more admissions isn't necessarily more dollars, the price difference between a 5 day and 10 day WDW ticket is minimal (heck in the UK the 7 and 14 days tickets are identically priced right now and the 21 day pass is only about $30 more.

Stateside, Universal only sells up to 4 day tickets before an AP. There is also a question about how guest expenditure increases with length of stay; food and drink may be close to linear, but on merchandise and gifts, almost certainly not.


Foreign visitors often have one shot to do it all every few years, but I have seen quite a few that make WDW their home base to do so which would technically make the other parks complementary in nature. Not everyone does that of course, but it seemed to happen more often than the other way around or guest resort hopping over the span of a 2-3 week vacation.

In my experience, that's quite true, though historically I would say many only went to Disney.
This is of course anecdotal, but I have definately witnessed a surge in the number of people I know who are now splitting their trips to visit both, and for the first time many are doing Universal only trips, staying on-site skipping Disney completely. The Orlando Flex-ticket offers fantastic value once people have realised it exists and that there is an alternative to Disney.

For many i know, Florida or Orlando only meant Disney....I don't think some even knew anything existed outside of the WDW bubble. That has certainly changed in the last couple of years.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
In my experience, that's quite true, though historically I would say many only went to Disney.
This is of course anecdotal, but I have definately witnessed a surge in the number of people I know who are now splitting their trips to visit both, and for the first time many are doing Universal only trips, staying on-site skipping Disney completely. The Orlando Flex-ticket offers fantastic value once people have realised it exists and that there is an alternative to Disney.

For many i know, Florida or Orlando only meant Disney....I don't think some even knew anything existed outside of the WDW bubble. That has certainly changed in the last couple of years.
There is no question that many people that only did Disney finally ventured outside of the bubble and went elsewhere thanks to the pull of the boy wizard. What I found interesting was quite a few see it as a one and done thing. I have heard quite a few "Yeah, Potter was cool, but I just don't feel a real pull to go back to US."

I don't know what it is about the mouse, but he has the hooks in deep.
 

POLY LOVER

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
My theory is that Disney now is so much more than theme parks with their venture into TV show, cable channels, print and so much more they are split between to many focuses. They can,t be as focused on just the parks as they used to be. Their attention has to be evenly spread among their interests. It's causing them to fight the war on to many fronts. In the old days Walt had one thing on his mind. The parks and his movies
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
For a beast the size of WDW I think even that is insufficient. Between the four parks there should be a minimum of one new E-ticket each year to 18 months.
It'll never happen. WDW will never build more than an average family can do in a week because they'll never be able to get the average family to visit for more than a week. Folks have limited funds and limited vacation time. Best case "new stuff" scenario would be upgrades and replacement of existing attractions. I doubt we ever see any substantial true park expansion after DAK and DHS are finished.
 

WondersOfLife

Blink, blink. Breathe, breathe. Day in, day out.
I like how despite all the facts, you continue to just say the exact same thing. You're reading into and interpreting the numbers to suit your argument. All I've said is that Disney has added more total guests in Orlando than Universal, fact. Your claim can be disputed and it has been by multiple posters.
No. They didn't. They convinced non-theme-park-visitors to visit Universal. They did not (in aggregate) "flip" Disney visitors into Universal visitors.

cool. :)
 

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
For a beast the size of WDW I think even that is insufficient. Between the four parks there should be a minimum of one new E-ticket each year to 18 months.
This is a little unrealistic, although I'd have no problem seeing it happen. One of Iger's biggest failures is essentially 0 E-Ticket attractions on his watch. The last true E-Ticket was EE, started prior to his arrival. E-Ticket attractions cost around $80-$100M and have 20-25 year lives. I'm not even sure they have the space for that many true E-tickets.

If you're talking a new E-Ticket every month, you build the first one in year 1 and have 12 more the next 20 years. You'll have 16-17 E-Tickets in 25 years. Think about that. That's more E-Tickets than exist today. Even between 4 parks, that's over 4 per park, in addition to the A, B, C, and D ticket rides you'd have to add unless you're strategy is adding E-Tickets? The construction itself usually takes 3+ years.

In the last 20 years, Disney has done ToT, Soarin, Test Track, Mission Space, EE, RnR, 7DMT (not really E-ticket), can you count Toy Story? If you call Toy Story and 7DMT D tickets, they've really only had 6 true E-Ticket rides.

It hasn't been enough, but they have so much opportunity with their existing lineup of attractions, including the A, B, C, and D rides. Also, they have to think about shows, common areas, and closures to make room. I just think having such a big project every 18 months would have too many downstream impacts to be feasible to sustain.
 

BJones82

Well-Known Member
Disney has no reason to build fast right now. Building fast is expensive, and, the most important factor, it looks horrible on the quarterly reports. Selling spending extra money for a quick turnaround to the stock holders is pretty hard to do when you are on top and money is getting delivered in dump trucks.

On the flip side, US/IOA has every reason to build fast. Prior to Potter, they were in a multi year slump that had them right on the edge of a cliff. They needed a quick turnaround if they were going to survive and in that situation, you spend what you need to in order to make it happen as quick as possible.

Disney's attendance domination is even more impressive when one considers fact Disney has literally allowed 3/4 parks to nearly die and still grew attendance and guest spend at all 4 parks.

Frankly, I was shocked Disney added more guests. I thought AK, EPCOT, and HS would NO WAY have any growth at all. The state of those parks should be negative growth, but Disney's dominance is too strong.

Once Disney world adds more themed lands and expands further, you will see attendance growth accelerate and the gap will widen even more. These numbers certainly don't make Disney feel rushed to expand...which we can all plainly see. They are in no hurry and they don't need to be.
 

BJones82

Well-Known Member
the MK expansion was done quick and the little mermaid ride has had to be fixed shortly after opening, I see flaws in the facade that I had to point out to them. There was a spot that the 2x4 showed behind the stone facade. The mine ride is nice but no wow factor. This would have never happened in the past.

I expect technology/Quality assurance and leading edge and I see so so now. I used to marvel at the cleanliness and how fast things got fixed, it seemed over night. I remember being there multiple days and seeing something that needed paint the next day you would go back and it was painted. My wife and I said thats Disney for you.

Complacency is the greatest danger to a successful business. One day you wake up and say what happened?

We don't know how US's expansions are going to hold up, though I haven't seen the Gringotts ride yet personally I have heard the line ques' goblins look incredible but the marble doesn't look real... The original Harry Potter Expansion is holding up but it took them over 3 years to build (on par with the New Fantasy Land) new areas they are building now they are spending money to build in 18 months for things almost just as expansive, this means they are either paying so much more it's not sustainable to construct in this way, or they are doing a really crappy job which will require a ton of upkeep, as others have said though, prior to 2010 when US opened the first HP area they were in a multi year slump and almost a decade sense anything great had come out (Islands of adventure opened in 2001 i wanna say or it was 1997-8) Anyway they need to spend lots and fast now, Disney as others have said doesn't...
 

BJones82

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Potter was cool, but I just don't feel a real pull to go back to US.

I was this way, we went to US a year after HP first opened and haven't gone back in 4 years sense until we go this fall to see the new area... For us it just isn't worth the cost of buying a whole ticket for the two of us to visit the one area, as they refresh the rest of the parks this might change. In that same 4 years we have visited WDW 5 times for 5-7 days each time and are going back for our honeymoon of which we are just doing 1 out of 18 days at US... This really points to them still complimenting WDW not competing with it...

Just look at attendance numbers, WDW had more visitors than Universal parks world wide this past year...

My theory is that Disney now is so much more than theme parks with their venture into TV show, cable channels, print and so much more they are split between to many focuses. They can,t be as focused on just the parks as they used to be. Their attention has to be evenly spread among their interests. It's causing them to fight the war on to many fronts. In the old days Walt had one thing on his mind. The parks and his movies

Disney started out with movies and the mouse then opened a theme park almost 20 years later... They have always been more than the parks... The parks were a way to get people into the worlds of his movies and TV shows... I'm young so forgive me (only 29) but what was the show that Walt broadcasted from DisneyLand every week?

Yea... You're right though just the parks and movies there was no TV or profiting from sales of figurines, Walt was never about that... Wait didn't he sell Mickey from his garage........ I guess you're right though just like Columbus was a great guy and we should celebrate him.... Revisionist history is always great when you win....
 

TXDisney

Well-Known Member
From
A person that does both Disney and Universal pretty much every trip, I don't think Dosney is in trouble at all. The one and only thing universal has better than Disney is it's thrill rides. In my opinion Disneys only thrill rides are Mt. Everest, space mountain, ToT and Aerosmith. With universal having 1/2 the parks and twice the thrill rides, it's not a competition there. But the new Disney Springs looks like it will be better than CityWalk. And Disney at every park is kid friendly, which is most guests. Universal doesn't appeal to young crowds as much. Ever all of Harry Potter is more of a teenage market. When we do 7 days 8 nights down in Orlando we do 6 Disney days and 2 universal, so Disney doesn't have to worry about my business. I think most families that do both do something similar as well.
 

BJones82

Well-Known Member
From
A person that does both Disney and Universal pretty much every trip, I don't think Dosney is in trouble at all. The one and only thing universal has better than Disney is it's thrill rides. In my opinion Disneys only thrill rides are Mt. Everest, space mountain, ToT and Aerosmith. With universal having 1/2 the parks and twice the thrill rides, it's not a competition there. But the new Disney Springs looks like it will be better than CityWalk. And Disney at every park is kid friendly, which is most guests. Universal doesn't appeal to young crowds as much. Ever all of Harry Potter is more of a teenage market. When we do 7 days 8 nights down in Orlando we do 6 Disney days and 2 universal, so Disney doesn't have to worry about my business. I think most families that do both do something similar as well.

This is really good point and way to put it... A lot of people are all or nothing either they love US and Hate what Disney is doing or they HATE that people say Disney is hurting... This shows that right now they really are in two different markets and they compliment each other more than anything...

As someone else said, US doesn't offer more than a 4 day pass before jumping to annual where Disney offers 10 in the US and 21 internationally, clearly they aren't expecting to duplicate what Disney does, they are trying to fill the small gap that Disney leaves with what it doesn't do...
 

Prog

Well-Known Member
My theory is that Disney now is so much more than theme parks with their venture into TV show, cable channels, print and so much more they are split between to many focuses. They can,t be as focused on just the parks as they used to be. Their attention has to be evenly spread among their interests. It's causing them to fight the war on to many fronts. In the old days Walt had one thing on his mind. The parks and his movies
Yes, but dozens of people comprise Walt's former job. The fact that WDW was at its prime in the nineties when they were breaking ground of all these things rather than setting them to autopilot is indicative that conglomeration shouldn't be much of a factor anyway
 

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