Is Big Thunder Mountain Jinxed?

[Merlin]

Originally posted by xfkirsten
Statistically, you're WAY safer on the ride than you are just getting to the park! I'm with RU on this one - not deterred at all. If people are scared off of it, by all means, go ride something else, it leaves a shorter line for me.

-Kirsten

Statistics can be incredibly misleading though. For example...

STATISTICALLY, you're much safer on a roller coaster than you are on a merry go round. However the reason for this is more accidents occur on merry go rounds that are due to rider error (switching horses mid-ride and other things of that nature). Plus the injuries are minor. This statistic doesn't deter me from riding a merry go round because, as the rider, I'm not planning to do anything dangerous on the ride. On BTMRR, though, it's out of my hands. If I get hurt, it's because of either a mechanical problem or a poorly trained CM. It's also more likely my injury would be far more severe (even fatal) on BTMRR.

It's STATISTICALLY safer to fly than it is to drive. I'm not afraid of flying, but let's suppose one airline in particular had a fatal crash and it was due to either a mechanical malfunction or poorly trained personnel. If that airline shut down temporarily to correct the problems, and then shortly after reopening they had another similar problem, you can bet I would be hesitant to fly that airline again. I wouldn't be afraid to fly in general, but I'd probably choose driving over flying that particular airline, because they would've just shown they hadn't worked out their issues yet.

Also, roller coasters in general are STATISTICALLY safer than driving a car. However I don't think people here are saying these incidents have scared them away from roller coasters in general. They (and I) are saying it makes us hesitant to ride DISNEYLAND'S roller coasters (specifically BTMRR) because there seems to still be problems that could affect our safety.

 

[xfkirsten]

Accidents in driving are often out of your hands, as well. I really don't see how that makes a difference. When some nutso driver on the freeway (and there are many of them in SoCal) smashes into a car at 100+ mph as they try and weave in and out of traffic, and kills someone in the car that they hit, the blame probably does not rest on the person who was killed. They could be following the letter of the law perfectly, and pay the ultimate price for someone else's mistake. Drunk driving accidents, anyone? My point is, I don't see a difference between being hurt/killed because of a ride operator's neglect and being killed because of another driver's neglect. In my mind, the comparison stands.

-Kirsten

 

[Merlin]

Originally posted by xfkirsten
Accidents in driving are often out of your hands, as well. I really don't see how that makes a difference. When some nutso driver on the freeway (and there are many of them in SoCal) smashes into a car at 100+ mph as they try and weave in and out of traffic, and kills someone in the car that they hit, the blame probably does not rest on the person who was killed. They could be following the letter of the law perfectly, and pay the ultimate price for someone else's mistake. Drunk driving accidents, anyone? My point is, I don't see a difference between being hurt/killed because of a ride operator's neglect and being killed because of another driver's neglect. In my mind, the comparison stands.

-Kirsten

Well said, except that I think you kind of missed the point I was trying to make (probably MY fault for not stating it more clearly).

My point was not to argue with your claim that it's statistically more risky to drive a car than ride BTMRR. I actually agree with that (It would be silly not to agree since it's a documented fact). However, my point was that statistics can be misleading. Just because it is statistically more risky to drive than it is to ride BTMRR, that doesn't invalidate the very rational fear that people have about riding BTMRR. For one thing, people generally have very little choice in the matter of whether or not to drive a car. It's, for the most part, a necessity of life. So although car accidents occur all the time, it's unlikely people are going to say, "That's it, I'm never driving again", as a result. If, however, there was a pattern with regard to driving (for example, if a large number of accidents were occuring on a particular street or with a particular model of car, and it could be ascertained that the accidents were DUE TO one of those factors (rather than just coincidence)), then you'd probably see a lot of people changing their driving patterns accordingly, but not quitting the act of driving altogether. Roller coasters, on the other hand, are a form of entertainment. They're meant to thrill without actually putting you in harm's way. And although accidents do occur on theme park rides, Disneyland does have a worse track record currently when compared to other parks. This poor track record is due to mechanical problems and operator error, and not to rider error. Consequently, it's reasonable to discontinue riding BTMRR without giving up other non-Disney rollercoasters.

 

[Disneydewald]

Originally posted by Merlin
And although accidents do occur on theme park rides, Disneyland does have a worse track record currently when compared to other parks. This poor track record is due to mechanical problems and operator error, and not to rider error. Consequently, it's reasonable to discontinue riding BTMRR without giving up other non-Disney rollercoasters.

That's very interesting, Merlin. I was hoping you could share with us the sources for the information you have on park accident records. I think we'd all like to be able to see the contrast between Disneyland and other parks. Thanks a lot!

 

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Disneydewald
That's very interesting, Merlin. I was hoping you could share with us the sources for the information you have on park accident records. I think we'd all like to be able to see the contrast between Disneyland and other parks. Thanks a lot!

With pleasure! I've actually posted my sources for this information on numerous occasions in the past, but I'm more than happy to provide it again. The most comprehensive source is the following website:

http://www.saferparks.org/

Most of the information from this site comes from data from the Consumer Products Safety Commission. I stumbled upon this one back when the first BTMRR accident first happened. Someone on these boards made the remark that Disney was just getting extra publicity for this accident because they're in the spotlight and that accidents at places like Six Flags "happen all the time, we just don't hear about it". I wondered how true that was (or whether it was just a biased person making a claim based on ignorance), so I decided to actually research it (something I've found a lot of members of these boards fail to actually do). What I found from this site and a few others was startling. The site is pretty robust in terms of navigation. You can search based on ride type, accident type, theme park, etc. If you do a search based on theme parks, you'll notice that Disneyland alone has more pages of accident reports than several Six Flags parks combined. In addition, in looking over the Six Flags accident reports, I was hard pressed to find accidents that were actually due to mechanical error or ride operator error. Whereas with Disneyland in particular, there were several (such as a wheel assembly coming apart on Space Mountain, and other things of that nature).

Hope this helps!

 

[Merlin]

Here are a few examples of the accident reports from the Disneyland section of the above-referenced website:


Alice in Wonderland
Guest claims ride moved forward from the start, injuring her back. Back injury, treated by chiropractor.

Autopia
Guest was stopped at the "Y" utility waiting to approach unload. Car behind came around the corner and hit her. Spinal injury, treated at St. Joseph's Hospital.

Autopia
Guest said that car moved forward while she was boarding. Guest fell into the seat of the vehicle and injured her lower back. Back injury, treated by chiropractor.

Disneyland Monorail
Patron claims that a cast member closed the Monorail door on her foot. Bruised left hand and foot.

Disneyland Railroad
Guests claim that while riding on the last car in the disabled access area, their backs were injured when the train jolted to a start from the Tomorrowland station. 2 patrons, ages 38 and 72. Back injuries. Treated by personal physician.

Haunted Mansion
Guest stated the bar on this attraction came down and locked across her abdomen. Guest's husband tried to get attention of ride operator, but operator did not stop. Unspecified injury. Transported to ER by paramedics.

Indiana Jones Adventure
Guest says the vehicle went side-to-side, injuring her wrist. Wrist injury. No broken bones. Patron is taking a steroid medication.

it’s a small world
Guest says she was still standing up during loading when the operator dispatched the boat. Unspecified injury. Treated by doctor.

it's a small world
Guest says she fell whn boat was dispatched as she stepped in. Leg injury. Treated at Urgent Care. Prescription for anti-inflamatory and muscle relaxant.

Matterhorn
Guest reported that ride operator tightened seat belt so tight that she bruised her abdomen. One week later she went to her private doctor and was diagnosed with a broken rib. Broken rib

Pirates of the Caribbean
Boats were not indexed properly and the station stop was lifted causing the boat to move while patrons were standing in the boat to disembark. Concussion, neck sprain, nerve problem to back

Space Mountain
When the ride accelerated at the start, guest's head flew back and hit the seatback, resulting in neck and back pain. Neck and back pain. Treated at Kaiser Urgent Care.

Splash Mountain
While descending down the large drop, the guest's palm received a 1" laceration. 1" laceration to palm. Treated at St. Joseph's Hospital.


Note: The Disneyland section of the website is 9 pages long. The above is just a sampling. The Six Flags Magic Mountain section, by contrast, is one-half a page long.

 

[Merlin]

Here's another link to a site with some accident data:

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/accidents/list.cfm

 

[JackSkellington]

WOW. I knew Disney had some problems with their rides but not so many. It is rather sad to see that. And I think Merlin brings up an excellent point about driving compared to BTMRR. Of course we all know driving is safer that BTMRR. But can we be so sure know? I mean his analogy about the plane company is an excellent thought. And in some cases has already happened. Look at the companies whose planes have crashed once. The entire company usually takes a small to medium loss (Depending on the company it is totally subjective), but if they incur another accident the company has some major difficulties to overcome. And also on the thought about driving vs. BTMRR you as the driver are responsible for the car. So you can stop an accident from happening to the best of your own ability. When riding BTMRR you give that power up. Would you let someone who had been the driver of two car crashes with equal damage as the BTMRR had. (Death, and destruction of the front side of the car) I really would not let him drive for me.

 

[xfkirsten]

A lot of those say "guest says" this happened or "guest reported" this happened... but I'd be a lot more interested to know if some of those were caused by guest stupidity (out of curiosity, how would one GET a 1" laceration on the drop on Splash?). If someone did something stupid, of course they're gonna claim that the ride did it to them, not that they did it to themselves.

And the cars in Indy always move side to side, so I really don't think anyone can call DL on that one.

In general, I think Disney is the target of a lot of these injury lawsuits just because they ARE Disney. People think they can take Disney to the bank, forgetting that Disney has an army of lawyers. A park like US or SF that isn't as big of a corporation may not seem as big of a target for a lawsuit to people.

-Kirsten

 

[Disneydewald]

Originally posted by xfkirsten
A lot of those say "guest says" this happened or "guest reported" this happened... but I'd be a lot more interested to know if some of those were caused by guest stupidity (out of curiosity, how would one GET a 1" laceration on the drop on Splash?). If someone did something stupid, of course they're gonna claim that the ride did it to them, not that they did it to themselves.

And the cars in Indy always move side to side, so I really don't think anyone can call DL on that one.

In general, I think Disney is the target of a lot of these injury lawsuits just because they ARE Disney. People think they can take Disney to the bank, forgetting that Disney has an army of lawyers. A park like US or SF that isn't as big of a corporation may not seem as big of a target for a lawsuit to people.

-Kirsten

I gotta go with Kirsten on this one. A LOT of those things guests could've brought on themselves.

Example:
Autopia
Guest said that car moved forward while she was boarding. Guest fell into the seat of the vehicle and injured her lower back. Back injury, treated by chiropractor.

Who's to say the guest didn't try to get in the car before she was suposed to? People don't listen to directions a lot of the time. And, like Kirsten said, do stupid things. Unless it's a mass mechinal error, like BTMRR, you can't say it wasn't just carelessness on the guests part.

 

[Disneydewald]

Here's the link to Disneyland's accidents on the site Merlin directed me to.

http://www.saferparks.org/database/query_by_company.asp?Company=Disneyland

A lot of the accidents there are the guest's fault. Running out in front of cars, slipping and falling, and tripping. That's not Disney's fault if you slip and fall.

 

[xfkirsten]

Looking over that full list, now that I'm home from work and have time to read all of them... and i must say, you'll have to come up with beteter eveidence than that to convinve me that Disney is so much more unsafe than other parks. The listings that stick out to me:

-All the Autopia rear-endings: riders are specifically told NOT to rear end other cars. Guest (not necessarily the victim's) fault.

-Monorail: "Guest suffered seizure while entering monorail car. Family said he had suffered a seizure at 16 years of age, but none since." Sounds like it has nothing to do with Disney's policies/procedures. A coincidence that this happened in the park.

-Disneyland RR: "Guest fell as she was standing up after train stopped."

-Dumbo: "Guest is 32 weeks pregnant and noticed bleeding after ride. Ride owner says guest did not notice any bumping or jerking on ride." Somehow I doubt that a ride as tame as Dumbo specifically caused this.

-HM: "Guest says that while on the ride, the right side of her chest got tight. She started shaking and thought she was having a seizure." I'm curious as to whether or not it's medically posible that an attraction such as HM could cause a seizure like that.

-Indy: "Guest comlained of chest pain after ride. Guest has prior history of same symptoms, forgot medication." Isn't there a WARNING sign in the queue about that sort of thing? I know theree is, shortly after the film room. And the forgotten medication makes it even worse. Once again, I can't fault Disney for that one.

-iasw: "While stepping off ride, patron stubbed her great toe." I have stubbed my toe and empathize, but honestly, is it Disney's fault when someone missteps now, too?

-Mad Tea Party: "Guest felt sick after riding attraction." No comment.

-Mad Tea Party: "After spinning on the ride, guest complained of dizziness." No comment.

-Mark Twain: "Pregnant guest noticed vaginal bleeding after riding the attraction." You can't tell me that the Mark Twain caused that.

-Mr Toad: "Guest attempted to enter vehicle as it was being advanced. Vehicle struck guest's left hip." Why were they trying to do that?!

-Mr Toad: "Ride owner says mother sat on child's leg while getting into the vehicle." Guest accident.

-Peter Pan's Flight: "Guest felt weak while staning in line. After ride, she continued to feel weak. Heart attack. Paramedics transported to Western Medical Center." Yeah, Peter Pan's line makes me have a heart attack, too.

-Splash Mtn: "Guest says that her log went down, and while it was stopped at the Briar Rabbit scene, their log kept getting bumped." By the bump I assume they mean when the logs behind hit you when you stop... come on, it's really not that bad. :/

-Splash Mtn: "Guest had hand outside log during ride and injured her finger." Please keep your hands and arms iniside the log at all times.

-Splash Mtn: "Guest felt ill, vomited on ride, started having itching and hives." Sounds like an allergic reaction to me. Is Disney responsible now for making sure people avoid what they're allergic to?

Those are the ones that really jumped out at me. There are many other 'guest fell' accidents, which can happen anywhere (and as I have been taught when working in retail, there are people who make a living out of looking for places to fall and hurt themselves so they can sue).

-Kirsten

 

[paulcmartens]

response to xfkirsten post

Well, of what you listed there, I only thought Splash was a problem.

In fact, I noticed the other day that they changed something right before the exit of the ride.

It used to be that something lifted the front end of the raft up out of the water on a bank of sorts, and then other rafts rear ended it up in the back area.

Now, they have a gate system like the first drop (just a half gate). That separates the rafts with a nice spring loaded system.

Although it never was bad...it was on the verge of a problem with sometimes the severity of the bump combined with a possibly oversensitive sue happy person.

I think it was an appropriate concern, and they did something about it. Not that I had a problem with it in terms of physical pain, but if I was the ride designer, I would have said: this needs to be changed...too violent a jerk.

Sometimes its the little things...like when they installed the splash guards at the entry area of the logs when it gets on that long ramp before folks exit the log and the enter empty ones...the public used to get wet, splashed by the way the log came down onto the rubber track...its a sensitivity issue. And sometimes its o.k. to be concerned about feelings such as emotions, not just physical feelings.

 

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Disneydewald
Here's the link to Disneyland's accidents on the site Merlin directed me to.

http://www.saferparks.org/database/query_by_company.asp?Company=Disneyland

A lot of the accidents there are the guest's fault. Running out in front of cars, slipping and falling, and tripping. That's not Disney's fault if you slip and fall.

True, but what you and others have failed to notice is that pretty much all of the Six Flags issues were guest-error-related. In contrast, while the majority of the Disneyland issues were ALSO guest-error-related, an alarming number of them were not. It's one thing to be a Disney fan, but it's another to be blinded by one's bias. If the stats were reversed, I have no doubt that half the members on these boards would be saying, "See? Look how unsafe Six Flags is!" But because the stats say that about Disneyland, we look for excuses to explain it away.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not attacking Disneyland. Contrary to what you might think, I LOVE Disneyland. That's why I'm so disgusted by what the current Disney management has allowed Disneyland to become.

 

[JackSkellington]

We can each enjoy what DL has to offer. However sometimes accidents do happen. If it is the guest's fault well then they can't do anything about it. But if Disney is to blame there is a problem. We can all see that guests do dumb things on, off, near and far from the rides. But to take action against DL for personal mistakes is wrong. But I think DL is still a great place and I don't plan not to visit.