Is a fifth gate even possible?

[justintheharris]

I will start by saying that I know this general topic has been discussed a million times!! However, I want to get into some of the gritty details that I don't think I've seen brought up. I want to try and present this in a slightly different way.

Whenever I see discussions related to a fifth gate at Walt Disney World, there's some things that I miss. Maybe it's because I read enough threads and all anyone seems to talk about is what theme it should be and how we need a fifth gate because the parks are too crowded and not "magical enough." What I constantly wonder is: Is a fifth gate even possible? I'm sure a lot of people will find that a silly question but my thoughts go towards "Where would it be located?" and "Is there a theme unique enough to encompass another whole park?" and "What kind of attractions would go there that wouldn't make more sense in the existing parks?"

When it comes to location, everybody seems to love to tout the fact that "Disney has only used 1/3 of its space" or something along those lines and while that may be true, much of the property owned by Disney isn't entirely suitable for another theme park to be built upon it. It's very difficult to find a large contiguous space for Disney to build a fifth gate. So, where would it be? Does anyone on the forum have knowledge on the suitability of the land? Could anyone point one out on a property map? I believe I've seen one before and there appeared to be a patch of land west of the Magic Kingdom but to build upon that would likely require a massive restructuring of the infrastructure around the Polynesian, Grand Floridian and Magic Kingdom parking lot area.

When it comes to theming, everybody loves to discuss this aspect of a fifth gate. But I can't recall ever seeing a theme that I could buy into Disney constructing theme park around. The most popular one I see is a theme park dedicated to villains but in reality, I don't even think that idea looks good on paper. How does Mickey Mouse get incorporated into this theme park? How do ANY heroes for that matter get incorporated into the theme park? How many little kids would find a park dedicated to villains appealing? The possibilities with a theme park dedicated to villains is extremely restricting. Perhaps they could encompass a land in the Magic Kingdom but an entire park dedicated to villains does not sound nearly as sensible. The other theme I see commonly brought up is a park dedicated to closed Disney rides and, if I even believe for a moment that it's physically possible for Disney to rebuild all their closed rides, why would they do that? Many of the rides that have closed over the years closed due to lack of popularity or licensing issues. It's another nonsensical idea. I cannot fathom a theme that would be unique enough from the current four existing parks. The closest I can come up with is a heroes vs villains set up with half the park dedicated to heroes and the other half dedicated to villains but even so, I don't think that set up would materialize very well. The four parks that exist can find homes for every Disney IP there is and beyond. And that includes Marvel as we're witnessing the Guardians of the Galaxy receiving what appears to be a permanent home in EPCOT.

But what does everyone else think? Does my post check out? If anything seems incorrect, please let me know! I am aware Disney won't be building another gate any time soon, but if they did, what are the logistics of it? Where on property would it go and what kind of theme would make it unique enough to both function and justify its existence?

 

[TwilightZone]

There's a lot of threads on the possibility of a fifth gate and the answer is always no.

 

[TwilightZone]

Also you shouldn't be knocking imagineering ideas that were made with fun in mind, not realism.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

The blank slate is lost forever, this much is true. One does not simply bullldoze a few trees anymore. WDW did paint itself in a corner with its urban sprawl under Eisner, carelessly squandering it's unique advantage and identity.

But property can be bought and sold. And Universal shows what you can do with small footprints and real estate aquisitions. Transportation and logistics can be solved to. Cities do it every day.


There are a gazillion more themes and attractions begging to be a theme park. Plus an infinite more that don't follow the standard gated park with rides formula.

 

[Robbiem]

Walt Disney World has plenty of room for future parks- yes the sprawling layout isnt ideal compared to the layouts of some of the other resorts but there is still usable space and that’s before you look at things like building multi storey car parks to free up space.

The other question is if Disney will build one which is more tricky to answer. I suspect under the current management the existing parks will build out but a new management may decide to build a new park.

As for theme there are so many to choose from, Personally I’d lime to see something based on myths and legends from around the world. No matter what theme I’d like it to be like Disneysea in Tokyo - different themed lands, like Magic Kingdom, connected around a core theme with a different layout from hub and spoke to make it feel different.

 

[atjimfromdisney]

Why is there only one other possibility for a theme park and why is it a River Country reboot?

 

[Shouldigo12]

I'm curious- how many attractions does everyone think should be in a land when its first built? I think having a number like that in mind could help with deciding whether an idea for a fifth gate would be good material based on how many rides you can come up with to go with it. Like the myths and legends idea mentioned above. Although technically that could go in EPCOT, if you do say three to four rides for each land (with each land being themed after a different country) based off of the most popular myths, and had maybe four lands to start with, that would be 12 to 16 rides.

 

[larryz]

I'm curious- how many attractions does everyone think should be in a land when its first built?

At least 5, including one thrill ride, one spinner, one show, one dark, and one kiddie ride. Then, at least one TS and one QS restaurant, two sets of restrooms (may be co-located with the restaurants) and one "plaza" where people can sit, performers can entertain, parades can perambulate, and crowds may form from which to watch fireworks.

 

[Mickey5150]

Forget logistics, I don't want Disney to build a 5th park until they finally figure out what they want to do with the other 4.

 

[atjimfromdisney]

I'm curious- how many attractions does everyone think should be in a land when its first built? I think having a number like that in mind could help with deciding whether an idea for a fifth gate would be good material based on how many rides you can come up with to go with it. Like the myths and legends idea mentioned above. Although technically that could go in EPCOT, if you do say three to four rides for each land (with each land being themed after a different country) based off of the most popular myths, and had maybe four lands to start with, that would be 12 to 16 rides.

Well so far, Disney has it defined as 2 lol.

 

[Master Yoda]

Possible? Yes.
Probable? No, although a boutique park along the lines of Discovery Cove was supposedly fairly well along in the blue sky stages before being scrapped in 2008ish. I could see something like that happening long before a full fledged 5th gate.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

VR. (Saves space, too.)

 

[Jon81uk]

Possible? Yes.
Probable? No, although a boutique park along the lines of Discovery Cove was supposedly fairly well along in the blue sky stages before being scrapped in 2008ish. I could see something like that happening long before a full fledged 5th gate.

I get the feeling that their other plan for "boutique" offerings is the additional dessert parties and things such as the Safari walking tour.

and longer term the Star Wars Hotel should offer some the Discovery Cove style boutique experience, but just charging for the additional entertainment as part of a hotel stay.

 

[Master Yoda]

I get the feeling that their other plan for "boutique" offerings is the additional dessert parties and things such as the Safari walking tour.

and longer term the Star Wars Hotel should offer some the Discovery Cove style boutique experience, but just charging for the additional entertainment as part of a hotel stay.

Depending on who you talk to, the rumor either came from or evolved into the Jungle Trek currently in AK.

 

[Nottamus]

A bus driver told me that a cast member was told by another bus driver, that they were skipping the 5th gate and going right to the 6th.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Do they have the space absolutely. Will they do it, probably not. I think the plan is to do what they are doing and add to each of the 4 existing parks. This is the cheapest way to do it. Think of all the infrastructure needed for a new gate; power, water, sewer, drainage, parking, to name a few. By adding to the existing parks all the infrastructure is already in place.

But if I were to dream of a fifth gate, it would be a villains park, this would be a roller coaster park, use off the shelf coasters and let Disney do what they do best Theme the heck out of them! This gives the older kids in the family a really cool and exciting park to enjoy.

 

[danlb_2000]

Well so far, Disney has it defined as 2 lol.

You may have meant it as a joke, but if look back to the openings of the WDW parks that number is about right. I believe the only land in MK to open with more then one

I will start by saying that I know this general topic has been discussed a million times!! However, I want to get into some of the gritty details that I don't think I've seen brought up. I want to try and present this in a slightly different way.

Whenever I see discussions related to a fifth gate at Walt Disney World, there's some things that I miss. Maybe it's because I read enough threads and all anyone seems to talk about is what theme it should be and how we need a fifth gate because the parks are too crowded and not "magical enough." What I constantly wonder is: Is a fifth gate even possible? I'm sure a lot of people will find that a silly question but my thoughts go towards "Where would it be located?" and "Is there a theme unique enough to encompass another whole park?" and "What kind of attractions would go there that wouldn't make more sense in the existing parks?"

When it comes to location, everybody seems to love to tout the fact that "Disney has only used 1/3 of its space" or something along those lines and while that may be true, much of the property owned by Disney isn't entirely suitable for another theme park to be built upon it. It's very difficult to find a large contiguous space for Disney to build a fifth gate. So, where would it be? Does anyone on the forum have knowledge on the suitability of the land? Could anyone point one out on a property map? I believe I've seen one before and there appeared to be a patch of land west of the Magic Kingdom but to build upon that would likely require a massive restructuring of the infrastructure around the Polynesian, Grand Floridian and Magic Kingdom parking lot area.

When it comes to theming, everybody loves to discuss this aspect of a fifth gate. But I can't recall ever seeing a theme that I could buy into Disney constructing theme park around. The most popular one I see is a theme park dedicated to villains but in reality, I don't even think that idea looks good on paper. How does Mickey Mouse get incorporated into this theme park? How do ANY heroes for that matter get incorporated into the theme park? How many little kids would find a park dedicated to villains appealing? The possibilities with a theme park dedicated to villains is extremely restricting. Perhaps they could encompass a land in the Magic Kingdom but an entire park dedicated to villains does not sound nearly as sensible. The other theme I see commonly brought up is a park dedicated to closed Disney rides and, if I even believe for a moment that it's physically possible for Disney to rebuild all their closed rides, why would they do that? Many of the rides that have closed over the years closed due to lack of popularity or licensing issues. It's another nonsensical idea. I cannot fathom a theme that would be unique enough from the current four existing parks. The closest I can come up with is a heroes vs villains set up with half the park dedicated to heroes and the other half dedicated to villains but even so, I don't think that set up would materialize very well. The four parks that exist can find homes for every Disney IP there is and beyond. And that includes Marvel as we're witnessing the Guardians of the Galaxy receiving what appears to be a permanent home in EPCOT.

But what does everyone else think? Does my post check out? If anything seems incorrect, please let me know! I am aware Disney won't be building another gate any time soon, but if they did, what are the logistics of it? Where on property would it go and what kind of theme would make it unique enough to both function and justify its existence?

Here is the land suitability map, red is land suitable for construction, light green is marginally suitable and dark green is unsuitable. Most of the dark green is also considered conservation land. Technically Disney can build on any of it, but the less suitable the land the harder it becomes from both a regulatory standpoint and the practical issues of building on it. Even if you limit it to the red there are still a couple good chunks available, including the light green opens up more options.

 

[Chef Mickey]

As said before, need to finish the first 4.

Anything is possible.

 

[wombat]

A bus driver told me that a cast member was told by another bus driver, that they were skipping the 5th gate and going right to the 6th.

Very Funny, I like your sense of humour (English spelling there)

 

[lawdogNOLA]

Do they have the space absolutely. Will they do it, probably not. I think the plan is to do what they are doing and add to each of the 4 existing parks. This is the cheapest way to do it. Think of all the infrastructure needed for a new gate; power, water, sewer, drainage, parking, to name a few. By adding to the existing parks all the infrastructure is already in place.

But if I were to dream of a fifth gate, it would be a villains park, this would be a roller coaster park, use off the shelf coasters and let Disney do what they do best Theme the heck out of them! This gives the older kids in the family a really cool and exciting park to enjoy.

I'm not so sure about a villain's park, but the notion of a park with lots of coasters, something to directly compete with Universal, is a solid notion. Then again, one of these days Disney might just buy Universal. Instant 5/6 gates.

But in answer to the question: Yes, WDW certainly has the space. Not as much as they used to have, but there's still space to put in a 5th or even 6th gate, plus another water park or two, and more resorts, without tearing anything down or repurposing existing land useage. That said, don't be surprised if sprawls like Old Key West or Port Orleans Riverside become home(s) to another DVC project(s) after Riviera and the River Country project finish.

However, I don't see a 5th gate happening anytime soon. Star Wars was/is the ideal opportunity for a 5th Gate, perhaps combining it with Marvel, and perhaps other land possibilities (Disney's: Sci-Fi? Adventure? Thrills?) But that path wasn't taken. Instead, we've seen the repurposing of existing parks, and additions to existing parks. A new ride, and a replacement ride at Epcot, with substantive rumors of additional development and repurposing. Tron Coaster at Magic Kingdom. We've just had Avatar added to Animal Kingdom, Toy Story Land at Studios. Likewise, I don't see a 3rd waterpark anytime soon. More repurposing, perhaps, like Miss Adventure Falls at Typhoon Lagoon.

I look at it this way: The present ticket buyer is supporting 4 parks. Disney's bread & butter is people who come in for a multi-day stay so they can go to all the parks or multiple parks during a stay. Right now, doing all the parks for a typical vacation can be a stretch. I think Disney's run the numbers and seen a diminishing return; that basically a 5th park would not result in enough of a stay increase for families to make the budget increase support a 5th gate. Sure, they get tourists who stay 2 weeks or more, but I think they've run the numbers, see that the average stay is X number of days, that to support a 5th gate they'd have to increase that to X + ? days and also increase the multi-day passes to support a 5th gate, and they don't see the public willing to do that. Yet.

But space isn't an issue. Sure, not all the land I'm going to mention is presently suitable. There are wetlands, swamp and the like, and, therefore, environmental concerns. But every single bit of it can be built on, with enough time and money. Not even covering Disney buying more land, we have: West of MK, north of the golf courses; North of Epcot and South of Ft. Wilderness; Even accounting for the new DVC project, the land West of Ft. Wilderness to World Drive, which includes the old airport; The huge swath South of the Car Care Center and North of Coronado Springs (yes, lots of wetlands, but not all of it is, and, as I said, there's not a wetland that can't be built on); and the land South of 192 and I-4. And that doesn't mention all the land big enough to put a 5th gate on, or other land portions that would be more suitable for resorts. Or repurposing: Relocate ESPN Sports Complex south of 192 and put a gate where it now is located; convert the Aladdin and Jafar lots at MK into multilevel garages, then take the everything South to the Car Care Center, and you have land about the same size as the Magic Kingdom.

Now, for those of you who might be wondering about little, bitty things like environmental permits, waterways, flood zones, drainage and the like, I acknowledge all of those. The land I've discussed is all a theoretical discussion. However, land reclamation is a real thing, and with enough money, all the land I'm discussing is reclaimable. At present, I am certain, a good portion of the land I've mentioned is not economically viable to reclaim, but I'm just speaking theoretically. Who'd have dreamed in 1971 that there'd be 4 parks, 2 water parks, the Sports Complex, and Disney Springs, to say nothing of everything else? So, someday, that land might be economically viable for reclamation.

So, plenty of land, for 5th gate, not economically viable now or anytime soon for a 5th gate. What you will continue to see is repurposing of existing park space, and modest expansion of existing parks, building in empty space (Brazil at Epcot?) and going outside the traditional footprints of the parks for expansion (Tron Coaster at MK, Guardians Coaster at Epcot).