Gratuity

[real mad hatter]

I whispered to my server in Rose & Crown " you want a tip,get yer money on Brazil for the world cup " Only kiddin folks.

 

[flynnibus]

In florida there is a tip credit law and servers only have to be paid $4.65 per hour.

Sorry, you are correct. I got my brain crossed with Disney in Cali, which doesn't have a tip credit. Thx for the correction.

 

[Mawg]

I didn’t read this whole thread but some of it and thought I would add a few things, sorry if I repeat anything. I’m reminded that I worked at Denny’s as I put myself through college. It was a tougher job than anything I had after college with much less pay. In Europe they don’t tip, the wait staff are paid for the job they do, in the US the wait staff is paid typically below minimum wage and they work primarily for tips. I’m sure it seems odd to a European. The restaurant industry in the US prefers the tipping method and so would the restaurant industry in Europe if it was not already ground in tradition. The reason is, one the restaurant can pay their staff less and two the wait staff is rewarded for upselling and it’s a reward the restaurant does not have to pay. I remember I was always trying to get people to buy that large orange juice, a side or toast, or to not order the $1.99 grand slam and order something more expensive. Since it was breakfast time my other goal was to get the tables turned as quickly as possible so that I could fill it again with my next guests and try to get more tips. The restaurant was happy with bigger tickets and more customers and I was happy with the extra tips a win win but more of a win for the restaurant as it was the customers giving me my reward and they made more money.

Also, I saw a post that stated people are paid for their skills. This is only partly true. Really people are paid based on the supply and demand of the skills in the market. The more skilled you are does not necessarily mean you will be paid more if there are a lot of people in the market that have your same skills, even if you went to college for 8 years to get those skills. A waiter gets paid what they do because there are a lot of potential people out there with the ability and willingness to do the job. Teachers don’t get paid enough but unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who love to work with children and the market has plenty of teachers. Nurses are getting paid more and more every year because the market is losing Nurses. A trash man (arguable not a lot of skill) can get paid quite a bit because there is no one willing to do the job. My father-in-law an engineer with a Masters in Engineering and a PhD in Physics looked into a job with Disney as an Imagineer after college. He had to turn it down because they didn’t pay as much as a company in defense. Why? Everyone wants to work for Disney so they don’t have to pay as much to get good people. High supply of Engineers want the job and Disney has a limited Demand or need. Defense, lower supply of Engineers and more of a Demand because they need so many.

So, what did I just say. Your skills do not dictate how much salary you are worth, and tip you waiter well, it’s probably a harder job than you have whether you think so or not.

 

[flynnibus]

Also, I saw a post that stated people are paid for their skills. This is only partly true. Really people are paid based on the supply and demand of the skills in the market. The more skilled you are does not necessarily mean you will be paid more if there are a lot of people in the market that have your same skills, even if you went to college for 8 years to get those skills.

Sure, demand is part of it. But ultimately, no one is going to pay $100/hr for something you can pick up a random off the street to do the job. Nor is anyone who had to go through 10 years of training going to do the job for $5/hr. Supply an demand push market value up and down.. but when you are talking non-skilled labor, no amount of demand is going to push wages up to the same as highly-skilled labor.. because there the labor pool for unskilled labor is almost endless.. where the labor pool for a skilled position is almost always finite.

So while current supply for a position may drive market value up or down.. it's inherient value will still largely be dictated by the skill level, what it takes to get to that level, and the economics of that market. Wages are typically bound by the economics in the labor market you are in. Example, most teachers have a masters.. and its very common to have higher. Yet, they don't make much due to the amount of money in the system... compared to tech sector where a masters really isn't required, but due to the glut of money in the sector, wages are significantly higher. Demand in the sector has flooded the sector with money.. money that can be funneled back into labor.

A trade skill laborer may take just as long as getting a master's degree - but their wages are bound by the tolerance in the market for their rates too. Tolerance shaped by the # of providers.. back to supply and demand on the selling side, not just the labor side

Ultimately... I have little sympathy for people crying over their wages when they've done little to fix it. When I was a teen, I worked cleaning office buildings. I've worked multiple jobs at the same time to make my target #. But everytime... if I wanted to make more money, I did more to get it. You can't sit still and expect things to improve for you.

 

[rsoxguy]

Perhaps that because people in Florida are notoriously bad tippers even the government has recognized this fact.

Whu??? Not all of us. I always tip between 18%-20%, unless the server is an inept cretin. I remember a thread taking a similar direction as this one a few years back. Shame. My thought regarding the topic of this thread drift is simple; I feel empathetic toward people who have to work hard for so little return, and so I follow along with the prevailing social custom. It's not because of a sense of guilt, but rather a sense of compassion toward someone with whom I have come into contact. This world is so void of decency at times, and I feel that such a simple gesture can go a long way.

 

[Mawg]

Nor is anyone who had to go through 10 years of training going to do the job for $5/hr.

Agreed with almost everything you said except this. While I agree, no one with 10 years of training is going to do a job for $5/hr, they may have to do a job for far less than they think their 10 years deserves when there becomes no demand in the market for a person with 10 years of training. This is a problem right now. There are unemployed people with lots of specialized skills that took a long time to acquire who are looking for a job that requires their skills and there just aren't any available, they either remain unemployed and keep looking even a few years because they are holding out for a salary they think they deserve or they find something else outside of their skill set and get paid a lot less. There is a problem currently facing our teens is finding summer jobs. Employers just won't hire them when they have someone else applying for the same job with a lot of skills that aren't necessary, have a family to feed and willing to do the job for the same low hourly wage as the teenagers.

Ultimately... I have little sympathy for people crying over their wages when they've done little to fix it. When I was a teen, I worked cleaning office buildings. I've worked multiple jobs at the same time to make my target #. But everytime... if I wanted to make more money, I did more to get it. You can't sit still and expect things to improve for you.

Agree completely with this. If you don't like it, only you can fix it. When I hear whiners, whining about their Jobs, Salaries, Companies, Managers etc. I don't have sympathy either. No one is going to fix your problems, fix them yourself. Find a different job or a different direction and only look back to remember what you've learned.

 

[flynnibus]

Agreed with almost everything you said except this. While I agree, no one with 10 years of training is going to do a job for $5/hr, they may have to do a job for far less than they think their 10 years deserves when there becomes no demand in the market for a person with 10 years of training.

Yes but that is taking a different job. That's why I said 'the job' in the post. An accountant may take a lower paying job waiting tables, but its unlikely that the market will shift to only paying accountants the same as a waitress.

 

[Mawg]

Yes but that is taking a different job. That's why I said 'the job' in the post. An accountant may take a lower paying job waiting tables, but its unlikely that the market will shift to only paying accountants the same as a waitress.

What do you think would happen if a flat tax was introduced and no tax credits? The market would be flooded with Accountants with no demand, probably would not lessen the salary to that of a Server but there are a lot of servers who can make a boat load of money at the right restaurants (They typically have developed skill).

I don’t know why I keep arguing with you when I pretty much agree with you. In most cases skill is directly proportional to supply. But it’s not always.

 

[Ex-Floridian]

Sure, demand is part of it. But ultimately, no one is going to pay $100/hr for something you can pick up a random off the street to do the job. Nor is anyone who had to go through 10 years of training going to do the job for $5/hr. Supply an demand push market value up and down.. but when you are talking non-skilled labor, no amount of demand is going to push wages up to the same as highly-skilled labor.. because there the labor pool for unskilled labor is almost endless.. where the labor pool for a skilled position is almost always finite.

So while current supply for a position may drive market value up or down.. it's inherient value will still largely be dictated by the skill level, what it takes to get to that level, and the economics of that market. Wages are typically bound by the economics in the labor market you are in. Example, most teachers have a masters.. and its very common to have higher. Yet, they don't make much due to the amount of money in the system... compared to tech sector where a masters really isn't required, but due to the glut of money in the sector, wages are significantly higher. Demand in the sector has flooded the sector with money.. money that can be funneled back into labor.

A trade skill laborer may take just as long as getting a master's degree - but their wages are bound by the tolerance in the market for their rates too. Tolerance shaped by the # of providers.. back to supply and demand on the selling side, not just the labor side

Ultimately... I have little sympathy for people crying over their wages when they've done little to fix it. When I was a teen, I worked cleaning office buildings. I've worked multiple jobs at the same time to make my target #. But everytime... if I wanted to make more money, I did more to get it. You can't sit still and expect things to improve for you.

I think you are quite blessed. You must have never been laid off and HAD to work for less money because you had kids to feed. Try and think about the unfortunate. Isn't that what life is about?

I sure hope you are never put into a situation in your life that those rose colored glasses you are sporting get cracked.

 

[flynnibus]

I think you are quite blessed. You must have never been laid off and HAD to work for less money because you had kids to feed. Try and think about the unfortunate. Isn't that what life is about?

I don't generally find those who have had misfortune come their way be the whiners that they aren't making more money - because when knocked down, they get back up and fight again. I've been blessed in that several of the career moves I have made worked out for me in the long haul vs the alternatives. The comment was about those who complain about how much you make while they make less... while they've done nothing to address it. I know plenty of people who sit in the same job, year after year, doing nothing to advance what they do.. and then whine about their pay.

 

[flynnibus]

What do you think would happen if a flat tax was introduced and no tax credits?

I think H&R Block would be in trouble... but all the accountants in the world doing business accounting would be just fine

 

[Ex-Floridian]

I don't generally find those who have had misfortune come their way be the whiners that they aren't making more money - because when knocked down, they get back up and fight again. I've been blessed in that several of the career moves I have made worked out for me in the long haul vs the alternatives. The comment was about those who complain about how much you make while they make less... while they've done nothing to address it. I know plenty of people who sit in the same job, year after year, doing nothing to advance what they do.. and then whine about their pay.

That's a horse of a different color. Thanks for clarifying

 

[MichWolv]

What do you think would happen if a flat tax was introduced and no tax credits? The market would be flooded with Accountants with no demand, probably would not lessen the salary to that of a Server but there are a lot of servers who can make a boat load of money at the right restaurants (They typically have developed skill).

I don’t know why I keep arguing with you when I pretty much agree with you. In most cases skill is directly proportional to supply. But it’s not always.

There are many accountants and financial wizards whose jobs exist largely because of complications, quirks, and loopholes in our tax and financial reporting systems (note the "s" -- separate systems). I not talking here about corporate accountants who keep the books and prepare financial statements or investment bakers who help market stocks -- these people have jobs because of the intended consequences of the system.

But the number of tax professionals (accountants, lawyers, financial advisors) who focus on exploiting loopholes is staggering. And the number of finance wizards who spend time and effort designing transactions to achieve desires reporting or tax goals that do not mirror the economics of the transactions is enough to make one ill. Accounting and tax motivated transactions are way too common. There are lots of smart people using their talents in ways that are productive only because of our complex systems.

Eliminate lots of tax deductions and special treatments, kill the inheritance tax, fix lease accounting and financial nstrument accounting, and you'd set thousands of highly educated accountants, lawyers, and finance folks free to do something useful. It'd be great.

 

[rob0519]

OK. Someone explain to me why I should have to tip more if I ordered a bottle of wine vs a glass of water? IF I ordered the steak or ordered the house salad?

If they don't feel they make enough, they can get a different job. It's not that hard to ask someone what they want to order and bring the food.

Anyway, you don't tip the person at McDonalds do you? You give them the order for the food.

The tipping system is in play in this country and for the most part I can accept it. However, I too am puzzled as to why if i order a $10.00 meal the tip would be about $2.00, but if I order a $40.00 meal the tip would be about $8.00, even though the waitstaff person did the same exact amount of work.

 

[unkadug]

The tipping system is in play in this country and for the most part I can accept it. However, I too am puzzled as to why if i order a $10.00 meal the tip would be about $2.00, but if I order a $40.00 meal the tip would be about $8.00, even though the waitstaff person did the same exact amount of work.

Because tipping $8.00 for a $10.00 meal is a little exorbitant.

 

[flynnibus]

Because tipping $8.00 for a $10.00 meal is a little exorbitant.

That skips over the point he was making.. The point is 'if a waiter deserves $8 for his services rendered' - why is it based on the cost of the meal. The model really doesn't make sense when people try to say 'you are paying for the services'.. and the model really doesn't scale up and down. It's a flawed model, but it's what is the accepted norm from some point in history.

I much prefer how I tip bartenders and taxis... for bartenders its more based on how many drinks, and the complexity of the drinks.. not the price of the drinks.. and taxis, I tend to tip based on the length of the trip and if I take them way out of the way.

 

[unkadug]

That skips over the point he was making.. The point is 'if a waiter deserves $8 for his services rendered' - why is it based on the cost of the meal. The model really doesn't make sense when people try to say 'you are paying for the services'.. and the model really doesn't scale up and down. It's a flawed model, but it's what is the accepted norm from some point in history.

I much prefer how I tip bartenders and taxis... for bartenders its more based on how many drinks, and the complexity of the drinks.. not the price of the drinks.. and taxis, I tend to tip based on the length of the trip and if I take them way out of the way.

My point was that if there was flat rate tip standard, instead of the percentage, then the 8.00 for a 10.00 meal could possibly be the alternative.


As far as the taxi driver....isn't anyplace they take you going to be out of their way?

 

[flynnibus]

As far as the taxi driver....isn't anyplace they take you going to be out of their way?

No - you may be traveling between areas where they can easily pick up another fare. But if you take them 30mins out of the way to an area where they will only be able to double back.. that's a lot more costly to them.

 

[luv]

The tipping system is in play in this country and for the most part I can accept it. However, I too am puzzled as to why if i order a $10.00 meal the tip would be about $2.00, but if I order a $40.00 meal the tip would be about $8.00, even though the waitstaff person did the same exact amount of work.

For the same reason that sometimes you want an $10 meal and other times, you want a $100 meal.

 

[flynnibus]

For the same reason that sometimes you want an $10 meal and other times, you want a $100 meal.

Yet I can still get better service at an IHOP at times than I can from a high end restaurant. Having someone operate a pepper grinder really doesn't justify 4x the tip.

Maybe we should be tipping the COOKs and not the servers.