Frontier and Turbulence

[Timsierramist]

I've flown a lot of airlines, and the worst Turbulence I've experienced yet has been on Frontier. I have a theory that in order to maximize fuel savings to the utmost possible, Frontier instructs it's pilot to fly directly through most Turbulence, versus climbing to different altitudes or flying around. Even severe, as I experience on my landing in Las Vegas yesterday (I was having flashbacks of being on Hollywood Tower of Terror, haha), although it was more crosswinds than anything else. Now to be fair, there was no way around that with the California storms blowing in across Las Vegas. But the rest of the flight was similar.

On the way out to Orlando, I knew it was bad because my iPhone (which wasn't switched into airplane mode by the way... ... ...) somehow managed to receive one of those emergency "amber alert" type sounds from the ground with a text indicating Severe storms and major flooding 40,000 feet below me.

Now, I'm fortunate enough that Turbulence doesn't bother me too much, but when I landed in Orlando a few days ago, it was bad enough that one elderly lady had either a major panic attack or a minor heart attack and paramedics had to escort her off the plane. Upon landing in Vegas on the trip back, the kids were crying throughout the cabin, the lady next to me was whispering ***-****** over and over and the African American lady behind me was praying for God to save her, etc.

Even the pilots seemed serious as we approached the airport like a WWII pilot about ready to receive Flak exclaiming "Make sure your seat belts are very tight, I need everyone to hold on to your kids" etc. I'm new to Frontier, but never have I experienced this stuff 4 times in a row, much less once on any other airline. Just the luck of the draw? I mean I was flying out of and returning to Vegas after all.

What is even more amazing is that each time I've flown Frontier so far (4 times since January), it seemingly has gotten worse. I would assume Spirit Airlines probably has a similar policy?

That's the price of cheap tickets to Orlando I guess. Sure I've experienced Turbulence on other airlines, but they were never as bad as what I've experience on Frontier.

As I said, I have a good grasp of what Turbulence is, and have experienced it enough to where it isn't really bothersome outside the fact that I feel bad for everyone else around me that is terrified. What I think aggravates that fact is Frontier pilots rarely get on the mic to assure scared passengers its normal and the fact that they are not there to greet you when you board (another money saving choice I assume). When I first flew as a terrified young Marine out of bootcamp for the first time, shaking the confident Captain's hand as I boarded my United flight from San Diego to Denver, which you know can get bumpy over those rocky mountains, was all I really needed on a personal note.

It's a conspiracy I tell you (to save money) ;-)

 

[mousehockey37]

The only way pilots know how bad turbulence is ahead of them, is if it's communicated to them by other pilots on the same route. So I'm not sure what your route looked like or if there was much air traffic ahead of you, but they possibly just didn't know. They could have an idea, but at certain points in the trip, they have certain altitudes and such they have to be at. Yes, they can try to compensate and go around or above, but if the area is too big/wide, there's not really a choice and you're gonna go through it.

Also, if they were having severe storms below you, per your phone alert, again, if the plane ahead of you passed through in a time before the storms blew up, they'd have nothing to report back to your plane with.

This is why when we fly, we always try to get the early flights in the morning. We can get into MCO before the weather gets stormish in the afternoon, and my DGF has a nut allergy, so the earlier the flight, the cleaner the plane as well (hopefully).

I don't think it has to do anything with Frontier. They're a smaller operation than Delta/American/Southwest, so they'll have fewer planes on those routes, so possibly less communication overall (I'm just guessing here). I'd have to imagine Spirit and Allegiant have turbulence issues like this as well because they're smaller in operations than the big ones.

 

[Timsierramist]

I'll often look up the data when I'm sitting bored in the airport, waiting for my flight. I have found this site to be pretty valuable.

http://www.turbulenceforecast.com/. Here is what it looked like yesterday. The reports were definitely coming in.

That wall was like the battle of Helms Deep.

There are a number of apps available for your phone that pull the same data though.

 

[mousehockey37]

There certainly is an app for just about everything isn't there, lol.
It'd still be interesting to see what time it was when you flew through it and when it was first reported. The midwest obviously had some solid turbulence from north to south, so if going east to west, which it sounds like you were, with a widespread area such as the one displayed, there's not going to be much in the way of trying to go around. Now if there were isolated storms and not a constant line on a frontal boundary, they should've tried to go around. Also, those super cell storms have cloud tops that can go well beyond 40,000 and there's a ceiling that planes have to stick to. Not trying to defend the airlines, just trying to offer another view.

Turbulence sucks though. It's a normal thing to experience and people who aren't frequent flyers will probably be shaken up. I mean, even the most experienced flyers will go through some rough stuff every now and then. I guess it depends on who's at the wheel up front.

 

[Timsierramist]

There certainly is an app for just about everything isn't there, lol.
It'd still be interesting to see what time it was when you flew through it and when it was first reported. The midwest obviously had some solid turbulence from north to south, so if going east to west, which it sounds like you were, with a widespread area such as the one displayed, there's not going to be much in the way of trying to go around. Now if there were isolated storms and not a constant line on a frontal boundary, they should've tried to go around. Also, those super cell storms have cloud tops that can go well beyond 40,000 and there's a ceiling that planes have to stick to. Not trying to defend the airlines, just trying to offer another view.

Turbulence sucks though. It's a normal thing to experience and people who aren't frequent flyers will probably be shaken up. I mean, even the most experienced flyers will go through some rough stuff every now and then. I guess it depends on who's at the wheel up front.

Ah, no worries. I know you aren't defending them. On the same note, I'm not attacking them. It's all the little things I think that they are doing, to offer very cheap ticket prices.

 

[mousehockey37]

Ah, no worries. I know you aren't defending them. On the same note, I'm not attacking them. It's all the little things I think that they are doing, to offer very cheap ticket prices.

I'll agree to an extent. Also, with being a smaller/discount airline, they offer the cheaper fares to get business. I've heard of stories before where people who were deathly afraid of turbulence were on flights and they talked with the flight attendants before takeoff and had a message relayed to the pilots. The pilots did what they could to minimize things and also made sure word got back to those people that when they were going to experience it, they knew it was coming. One thing you can't see though is the wind and pockets of disturbance within it, so it's tough to predict. I like using Frontier. We had no issues and actually wound up being ahead of schedule on our last trip. Now Allegiant and Spirit, I mean, Allegiant is trying to land planes that can't even keep the wheels inflated when landing.... so, there's also that... now THAT'S a value.

 

[ford91exploder]

I'll often look up the data when I'm sitting bored in the airport, waiting for my flight. I have found this site to be pretty valuable.

http://www.turbulenceforecast.com/. Here is what it looked like yesterday. The reports were definitely coming in.

That wall was like the battle of Helms Deep.

There are a number of apps available for your phone that pull the same data though.

WIth that number of PIREPS - well you are not going to have a smooth flight, My dad calls them potholes and he learned to fly in a canvas covered Aeronca Champ.

 

[Seanual757]

As a former airline pilot for a major US airline I can tell you that no pilots will deliberately fly into known storms and or turbulence. Clear air turbulence is rather common and as you have said we rely on PIREPS but depending on ATC traffic we are unable to avoid areas due to the high volume of air traffic especially on approach. We would never want to put our passengers through an unpleasant experience while flying it’s something we are always checking with ATC to avoid the areas when we are able. Management can tell you one thing but in the air this is our airplane and we will do our best to give our passengers the best ride we can. While on approach into airports we are using a standard STAR (specified route from a way point to the airport down to landing we are to follow these) if you were arriving from the north west chances are you flew the PIGT RNAV STAR into Orlando as you can see this is our route into Orlando for the approach, we have no room for vectors out of Ocala as you have 3 other runways in use if you are landing on the 18’s (you have 18R, 18L, 17R, 17L) we have other traffic in the area to keep an eye out.

 

[Timsierramist]

As a former airline pilot for a major US airline I can tell you that no pilots will deliberately fly into known storms and or turbulence. Clear air turbulence is rather common and as you have said we rely on PIREPS but depending on ATC traffic we are unable to avoid areas due to the high volume of air traffic especially on approach. We would never want to put our passengers through an unpleasant experience while flying it’s something we are always checking with ATC to avoid the areas when we are able. Management can tell you one thing but in the air this is our airplane and we will do our best to give our passengers the best ride we can. While on approach into airports we are using a standard STAR (specified route from a way point to the airport down to landing we are to follow these) if you were arriving from the north west chances are you flew the PIGT RNAV STAR into Orlando as you can see this is our route into Orlando for the approach, we have no room for vectors out of Ocala as you have 3 other runways in use if you are landing on the 18’s (you have 18R, 18L, 17R, 17L) we have other traffic in the area to keep an eye out.

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I'm nothing compared to your skills and expertise, but I was a huge, huge Microsoft Flight Simulator fan, and I took my fandom to the extreme. Flying PMDG software aircraft which mimics down to the very last detail and playing online via the VATSIM network with other pilots and air traffic controllers as well as flying with a virtual airline (United Virtual). We would use STARS and SIDS.

I of course can't fault the pilots (or the company) for landing through the pacific storms that just happened to reach Vegas at the right time while I was landing, following a specific approach to KLAS. I was more interested in the idea of how the budget airlines are changing the industry, specifically when it comes to saving fuel. Because i've flown Frontier 6 times in a row now, compared to the dozens of other airlines I've flown with, and seen that turbulence has been greater on these 6 flights than anything I've ever experienced (in fact, before this flight, I didn't know turbulence got that bad), I was curious if the pilots were simply plowing through the harmless turbulence to save fuel (and thus money), prioritizing that over passenger comfort and anxiety. One of those "you get what you pay for" scenarios. I'm certainly no conspiracy theorist, believe me. But I can see how that would make sense for extreme budget airlines like Frontier, Spirit, Allegient and Sloppy Joe's Alaskan Bush Pilot Service. .

About 7 flights ago, I flew Virgin America (the greatest airline that ever lived in my humble opinion!). The pilot informed us that we "chose one of the worst days to fly" in terms of turbulence, but that he would do whatever he could to avoid the bumps. But as we flew, I easily noticed we kept changing altitudes at different places throughout the flight, likely to avoid the trouble spots that were being reported by other aircraft ahead. And we had almost a complete smooth ride! Although Frontier no longer has the televisions you can tune into to watch for elevation and speed changes (another money saving tactic to save fuel without the added weight), I never felt those small differences in changing elevation.

Airlines like Spirit and now Frontier have their target audience. Those willing to pay the absolute minimum for a seat and a safe flight, and no matter how many complaints they may get, turbulence or otherwise, those customers will keep coming back. I mean, at $103.00 roundtrip in January and $166 in March, how could I trade that in for a $400.00 roundtrip out of the next best price?

 

[Seanual757]

LOL small world I have been using FS since MSFS 2.0 back in the mid 80's and still use it today with FSX (have not upgraded to P3D). Been using VATSIM for many many years I am working on building my home cockpit via Jetmax. Now to be honest it's been years since I have flown Frontier and since they were purchased by Indigo I am not sure if the are running a cookie cutter airlines these days and the boys upfront and too junior to understand it's your plane when you are in command or not.

 

[Timsierramist]

LOL small world I have been using FS since MSFS 2.0 back in the mid 80's and still use it today with FSX (have not upgraded to P3D). Now to be honest it's been years since I have flown Frontier and since they were purchased by Indigo I am not sure if the are running a cookie cutter airlines these days and the boys upfront and too junior to understand it's your plane when you are in command or not.

They used to be a great airline, but they've changed their business model to compete with the wildly unpopular, but financially successful Spirit Airlines.

I haven't played in a few years now. But I do want to get back into it in the near future. I started playing MSFS in the barracks in Okinawa while I was stationed there and from there I was hooked! Bought a huge projector, yoke, pedals, all the best addons. Would spend the weekends in the barracks flying. The Commanding Officer in my unit caught wind and would always ask me "where you flying to this Weekend"? It was very stressful at times in the Marines, and I found the only way I could really relieve that stress was through Flight Simulator. Nothing takes your mind off work like an instrument landing in stormy weather with a half mile visibility.

 

[Seanual757]

Yep I agree it's my break from reality and lets me step back into the office in the guppy. You should get back into it lots of good stuff I have a nice pedestal yoke, 737TQ from Jetmax, and a captains seat from a scrapped UA 733. Next up will be to order the Jetmax single trainer and overhead.

 

[Timsierramist]

Yep I agree it's my break from reality and lets me step back into the office in the guppy. You should get back into it lots of good stuff I have a nice pedestal yoke, 737TQ from Jetmax, and a captains seat from a scrapped UA 733. Next up will be to order the Jetmax single trainer and overhead.

I have no doubt I will soon enough. Just very busy right now with a lot of work. The Jetmax looks absolutely divine. But I think DVC membership is still first on the list, lol.

 

[Seanual757]

Yep purchased the DVC last year and started on Jetmax after Yea I get to sim once a week for a few hours other than that busy with family and 12+ hour days at work.

 

[Timsierramist]

Yep purchased the DVC last year and started on Jetmax after Yea I get to sim once a week for a few hours other than that busy with family and 12+ hour days at work.

I'll probably get back in during the summer. I work a side job during the college school year.

I will say also the reason I went from being afraid to fly back in 2006 to a content happy air traveler is almost SOLELY based on Flight Simulator. Once you start learning how it's done, it puts most of your fears to rest. I can also sympathize with the pax on my real flights because when I hit severe turbulence in MSFS via FSpassengers addon, they start screaming in the back.