Ethics / Loopholes

[Driver]

I've traveled with my aunt who has CP and relies on wheels to get around. I can tell you we have had double the wait at many lines since you have to wait for a specific vehicle to get into. The worst in particular was an extra 25+ minute wait to get onto Kilimanjaro safari. To do IASW we had a 20 minute wait instead of 10 to get onto the right boat. For Jungle Cruise we waited 20 minutes extra only to find out that the boat that holds a chair was broken down as was the other one. I could go on and on.

They do not get first dibs on nearly anything and honestly touring with an ECV/wheels is significantly harder and requires far more patience than without. We have to move slower through the crowds even. The only time we had special preference was eating at Columbia Harbor House. They had HA seating roped off.

We also cannot get on a bus at all if space is already taken up, so we've missed out on buses just like you said above.

We also have to wait until every single person is off the bus to disembark and then it takes a few extra minutes. I can go on and on, but I'm sorry if I completely lack sympathy for missing a bus because an ECV takes up a few extra spots. I guarantee your trip without one is far easier than ours when we are with one.

You do have to wait to disembark, however if it's a fresh empty bus you are the first one on. Also I agree with your claims about waiting and difficulty navigating crowds. However I think the rub with most people is that typical ECV riders expect " me first" preferential treatment. So to be perfectly clear the public sees ECV's not always having to wait their turn. This is not an easy subject and I understand why people on both sides of the fence get upset. A typical example is from just last night, the bus was partially loaded when an ECV rolled up. All loading stopped and the ECV went right on, then loading resumed. In most people's eyes that's about the same as cutting the line.

 

[DisAl]

That wouldn't happen. Tickets had to be scanned at the gate for admission for a paper FP to be issued.

What we used to do under the old system was once everybody had entered the park, the fastest walker in our group would take all the tickets (cards) and head for the fast pass kiosk at whatever attraction we were looking for. Then the rest of us, pushing both a stroller and a wheelchair, would catch up as we could. We didn't see that as gaming the system since it was still just one FP per person and we were all in the park already, just that some could move faster than others.
I like the new way of doing it. You don't have to rush all over the park to each location getting paper FPs, just do it in MDE in advance. You know what you have and can eliminate a LOT of walking with a little planning.

 

[correcaminos]

You do have to wait to disembark, however if it's a fresh empty bus you are the first one on. Also I agree with your claims about waiting and difficulty navigating crowds. However I think the rub with most people is that typical ECV riders expect " me first" preferential treatment. So to be perfectly clear the public sees ECV's not always having to wait their turn. This is not an easy subject and I understand why people on both sides of the fence get upset. A typical example is from just last night, the bus was partially loaded when an ECV rolled up. All loading stopped and the ECV went right on, then loading resumed. In most people's eyes that's about the same as cutting the line.

I take exception to the idea that typical ECV riders expect preferential treatment. Sorry, but I do. I think it's a stereotype that isn't even close to being true. Even when I haven't traveled with my aunt, I've gone with friends who had health issues that required it. None were that way. I met one in person who was a bit of a brat, but she was that way about everything. I don't think she was typical for an ECV user. That said one person seeing her would probably create a bad stereotype.

I have been on both sides of it all. I haven't used one (outside of parking for my aunt so she could get closer to an entrance) but I've been with others who do use one. It opened my eyes to the issues that surround it. I do think if people would get preconceived notions out of their head, that they would realize the issues with having one are pretty big. One bus now and then really shouldn't upset anyone, truly.

 

[DarthVader]

I take exception to the idea that typical ECV riders expect preferential treatmen

You may take exception with the idea of it, but by and large it seems to be the case. Yes there are people who actually need an ECV, but there's also a healthy mix of those who don't.

You seem upset that many of believe that many folks game the system this way, but hey we probably wouldn't think so except we've seen so many others doing that. I mean it wasn't that long ago that people were renting out special needs folks to join them on a Disney vacation just to they could cut in line.

We are all entitled to our opinions and some of us may hold an opinion you don't like, that's ok, we don't all have to be sitting around a camp fire signing Kumbaya

 

[correcaminos]

You may take exception with the idea of it, but by and large it seems to be the case. Yes there are people who actually need an ECV, but there's also a healthy mix of those who don't.

You seem upset that many of believe that many folks game the system this way, but hey we probably wouldn't think so except we've seen so many others doing that. I mean it wasn't that long ago that people were renting out special needs folks to join them on a Disney vacation just to they could cut in line.

We are all entitled to our opinions and some of us may hold an opinion you don't like, that's ok, we don't all have to be sitting around a camp fire signing Kumbaya

You are also entitled to yours as well. Doesn't mean yours are correct and anything more than horrible stereotyping. There may be some, but to claim that the typical (meaning most) are that way? That's kind of sad that people are that down on the disabled to say that.

I'm actually not upset about the idea that people game the system. Really not at all. I'm surprised that after going through this numerous times with someone in wheels that people thing having them would be a good way to game the system, because again for the third time - it's not - at all!

Not sure why people think it is an easy way to do it when it does make more things take far longer. I explained that quite well in a response to you too, so why you aren't believing it, I don't know. If it makes you feel better to think others can game the system by being in wheels, then so be it. I'm just sorry you're that negative on others in life to think that even though others including myself have said you're quite misinformed.

 

[Goofyernmost]

You are also entitled to yours as well. Doesn't mean yours are correct and anything more than horrible stereotyping. There may be some, but to claim that the typical (meaning most) are that way? That's kind of sad that people are that down on the disabled to say that.

I'm actually not upset about the idea that people game the system. Really not at all. I'm surprised that after going through this numerous times with someone in wheels that people thing having them would be a good way to game the system, because again for the third time - it's not - at all!

Not sure why people think it is an easy way to do it when it does make more things take far longer. I explained that quite well in a response to you too, so why you aren't believing it, I don't know. If it makes you feel better to think others can game the system by being in wheels, then so be it. I'm just sorry you're that negative on others in life to think that even though others including myself have said you're quite misinformed.

Give up, if one doesn't have any understanding about the problems of others one is not going to show any degree of sympathy for their plight in life. It isn't until one is directly exposed to it either themselves or accompanying others they will never understand. ADA is partially responsible for that by not letting a clearing system operate. When you cannot verify a need it is just fuel for people that are only able to think that people other then themselves ever have any challenges in life. For those with real disabilities every day of life is a challenge, for those lucky enough to not have those limitations their biggest challenge is accepting that someone got on a bus in front of them. And they can't even conjure up enough intelligence to do that. Wonder if any would be willing to change places with them. I occasionally try to get the message across about how shallow these people are, but, most of the time I just feel sorry for them.

I know from experience that all it takes is less then 5 seconds to go from perfectly able to a disability. All they can hope for is that it never happens to them.

 

[Driver]

I take exception to the idea that typical ECV riders expect preferential treatment. Sorry, but I do. I think it's a stereotype that isn't even close to being true. Even when I haven't traveled with my aunt, I've gone with friends who had health issues that required it. None were that way. I met one in person who was a bit of a brat, but she was that way about everything. I don't think she was typical for an ECV user. That said one person seeing her would probably create a bad stereotype.

I have been on both sides of it all. I haven't used one (outside of parking for my aunt so she could get closer to an entrance) but I've been with others who do use one. It opened my eyes to the issues that surround it. I do think if people would get preconceived notions out of their head, that they would realize the issues with having one are pretty big. One bus now and then really shouldn't upset anyone, truly.

As already said by others I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it. But understand I deal with ECV's on an everyday basis, I may move as many as 50 in a week. By sheer numbers alone the odds of me seeing abuse compared to the average person are high. I am not going to go point to point with you. All I am saying is by the numbers I see people expecting preferential treatment all the time meaning every week. If you are not dealing with the public you're not going to see that, which brings us full circle to how you formed your opinion. By what you're exposed to with family and friends. You and I have much different experiences in this matter which is why we are on opposite ends of it.

 

[DuckTalesWooHoo1987]

That wouldn't happen. Tickets had to be scanned at the gate for admission for a paper FP to be issued.

Eventually yes but at first the fast passes would be issued when it was the paper system of entering the parks. That was what the loophole was that people were exploiting. It was mainly just for Toy Story think though because that was back when Hollywood Studios would rope of the rest of the park in the mornings for people to literally flock to Toy Story. It was insane.

 

[correcaminos]

As already said by others I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it. But understand I deal with ECV's on an everyday basis, I may move as many as 50 in a week. By sheer numbers alone the odds of me seeing abuse compared to the average person are high. I am not going to go point to point with you. All I am saying is by the numbers I see people expecting preferential treatment all the time meaning every week. If you are not dealing with the public you're not going to see that, which brings us full circle to how you formed your opinion. By what you're exposed to with family and friends. You and I have much different experiences in this matter which is why we are on opposite ends of it.

And sometimes you focus on the negatives working with the public. So who knows where the truth lies? I know you didn't mean for it, but it came across as a bit insulting to disabled people, who mostly really just want to live life to as fullest as possible. I do totally agree that some are entitled, but that isn't something unique to disabled people

btw thanks for a polite discussion no matter how we agree/disagree!

 

[DarthVader]

Doesn't mean yours are correct and anything more than horrible stereotyping

And vice versa

There may be some, but to claim that the typical (meaning most) are that way?

I'm of the opinion that many folks do abuse it. There are plenty of folks that need the ECVs and just to put a finer point on the issue, I was at disney a few years ago with my two daughters and both were in wheelchairs at the time, so I feel I have a level of perspective that many others do not.

 

[Goofyernmost]

And vice versa


I'm of the opinion that many folks do abuse it. There are plenty of folks that need the ECVs and just to put a finer point on the issue, I was at disney a few years ago with my two daughters and both were in wheelchairs at the time, so I feel I have a level of perspective that many others do not.

Yea, well I think they were just to lazy to walk. Because the odds are that they are faking it to get preferential treatment. It was probably your idea.

 

[Phil12]

Yea, well I think they were just to lazy to walk. Because the odds are that they are faking it to get preferential treatment. It was probably your idea.

Anyone can use an ECV. You don't have to have a disability. And, as we all know, you can have a disability and not show any outward signs that would make your disability obvious to other people. Disney does not require any sort of medical certification (i.e. you do not have to prove your disability). Therefore they must take your word. End of story.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Anyone can use an ECV. You don't have to have a disability. And, as we all know, you can have a disability and not show any outward signs that would make your disability obvious to other people. Disney does not require any sort of medical certification (i.e. you do not have to prove your disability). Therefore they must take your word. End of story.

Do you really think I don't know that? If so you haven't been reading the previous posts. Anyway, it was aimed at Darth so that Darth might understand the frustration and upset caused by people that make judgments without having a clue about the back story. I'm pretty sure that what I said was pretty upsetting since I don't have a clue what the reason was. However, Darth is pretty confident that a lot of people are faking any need. Darth may just not have a clue.

And yes, you can rent one, but, I will guarantee that you would only do it once because that would be all that would be needed to shine a spotlight on just how much of a PITA that they are and how few things you can experience because of the cumbersome traveling ability around the parks. But, yes, of course they are trying to gain an advantage over able-bodied people. Just another fantasy.

Sadly, it isn't the end of the story. Disney cannot require any sort of medical certification because of the laws preventing it from happening (ADA). It was done because, again, people with no experience in being a disabled person are thinking like a non-disabled person and have decided that it would be embarrassing to the person to be asked. The problem is that they have not taken into consideration just how humiliating it is to know that people are deciding that they are just playing the system because the law says that no one can ask them about it. It is a stupid part of an otherwise good effort to help people with disabilities. Unfortunately, it cause more anxiety problems to the disabled then any quick question would ever have done.

 

[Driver]

Do you really think I don't know that? If so you haven't been reading the previous posts. Anyway, it was aimed at Darth so that Darth might understand the frustration and upset caused by people that make judgments without having a clue about the back story. I'm pretty sure that what I said was pretty upsetting since I don't have a clue what the reason was. However, Darth is pretty confident that a lot of people are faking any need. Darth may just not have a clue.

And yes, you can rent one, but, I will guarantee that you would only do it once because that would be all that would be needed to shine a spotlight on just how much of a PITA that they are and how few things you can experience because of the cumbersome traveling ability around the parks. But, yes, of course they are trying to gain an advantage over able-bodied people. Just another fantasy.

Sadly, it isn't the end of the story. Disney cannot require any sort of medical certification because of the laws preventing it from happening (ADA). It was done because, again, people with no experience in being a disabled person are thinking like a non-disabled person and have decided that it would be embarrassing to the person to be asked. The problem is that they have not taken into consideration just how humiliating it is to know that people are deciding that they are just playing the system because the law says that no one can ask them about it. It is a stupid part of an otherwise good effort to help people with disabilities. Unfortunately, it cause more anxiety problems to the disabled then any quick question would ever have done.

I can't speak about others post, only my own. And the scammers and gamers I am talking about are the ones who openly admit to it. People who tell me without any prompting at all, that 1) " I can walk but I don't want to "
2) " I don't need this thing but the fringe benefits are great!"
3) " I only get one of these when I come here it's better than a Fass Pass"
These are the people I'm referring too. They have no shame that they are gaming the system. And if I were bound to wheels as some unfortunately are I would be very upset about gamers. Because in the end rules and laws get changed to stop gamers and people who really need ECV's will pay the price by having some restrictions or another step to deal with that they have to comply too. Maybe I could compare it to shoplifting, it should matter to all of us because in the end we pay for it through higher consumer prices. I didn't want to go this far with this conversation but it seems I had too, because people automatically think you're a beast for talking trash about the disabled. And I'm not even talking about disabled folks. I'm Done!!!!

 

[correcaminos]

And vice versa


I'm of the opinion that many folks do abuse it. There are plenty of folks that need the ECVs and just to put a finer point on the issue, I was at disney a few years ago with my two daughters and both were in wheelchairs at the time, so I feel I have a level of perspective that many others do not.

Not sure how I was stereotyping... but whatever and not going to argue with you any further. Especially not knowing why both daughters were in chairs or how you handled it. But have a good night

 

[Phil12]

I can't speak about others post, only my own. And the scammers and gamers I am talking about are the ones who openly admit to it. People who tell me without any prompting at all, that 1) " I can walk but I don't want to "
2) " I don't need this thing but the fringe benefits are great!"
3) " I only get one of these when I come here it's better than a Fass Pass"
These are the people I'm referring too. They have no shame that they are gaming the system. And if I were bound to wheels as some unfortunately are I would be very upset about gamers. Because in the end rules and laws get changed to stop gamers and people who really need ECV's will pay the price by having some restrictions or another step to deal with that they have to comply too. Maybe I could compare it to shoplifting, it should matter to all of us because in the end we pay for it through higher consumer prices. I didn't want to go this far with this conversation but it seems I had too, because people automatically think you're a beast for talking trash about the disabled. And I'm not even talking about disabled folks. I'm Done!!!!

There is nothing illegal or immoral about gaming the system. Anyone can use an ECV. If it pleases someone to fake a disability in order to gain preferred treatment, that is their business. Thespians call it acting.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I can't speak about others post, only my own. And the scammers and gamers I am talking about are the ones who openly admit to it. People who tell me without any prompting at all, that 1) " I can walk but I don't want to "
2) " I don't need this thing but the fringe benefits are great!"
3) " I only get one of these when I come here it's better than a Fass Pass"
These are the people I'm referring too. They have no shame that they are gaming the system. And if I were bound to wheels as some unfortunately are I would be very upset about gamers. Because in the end rules and laws get changed to stop gamers and people who really need ECV's will pay the price by having some restrictions or another step to deal with that they have to comply too. Maybe I could compare it to shoplifting, it should matter to all of us because in the end we pay for it through higher consumer prices. I didn't want to go this far with this conversation but it seems I had too, because people automatically think you're a beast for talking trash about the disabled. And I'm not even talking about disabled folks. I'm Done!!!!

I'm still not sure what they gain by using a scooter. They widened the queues to accommodate a scooter, so they have to get in line. From what I understand to get a special Front of line privilege you need a DAC card (or whatever it is called now) saying what kind of accommodation should be made. (that is where the return time comes in) One doesn't need a scooter or wheelchair for that. They spend the day looking at everyones butt and constantly have to be on the alert for some brain dead person to step in front of a moving vehicle and then get yelled at like they did something wrong. They don't get a break in admission prices, but, unless they have their own scooter, they have to pay extra for that. If they rent one from the park, they cannot take it with them for other places. If they have their own or rent from an outside source they do get to get on the bus first, but, that is a safety thing to help prevent injury to others, however, they have to get off last for the same reason. They get judged as faking because they get off the scooter and walk on to a ride or into an attraction. Well, Duh! Of course they have some mobility if they didn't they would need a wheelchair because their mobility would be severe enough that they cannot get off a scooter and walk well enough to the ride. That didn't mean that even that limited walking wasn't painful and without the scooter they would just not be able to negotiate WDW or any other place for that matter.

If there are some and they brag about it, well then you and the rest of us know who they are, but, until the government finds a way to help prevent that problem we might as well grin and move on. We have no way of knowing what another person is feeling and to stand in judgment of them is just beyond my ability to accept as being a legitimate concern.

 

[networkpro]

Theres one less method to "game the system" today, the "Update Party" feature on the DisneyWorld.com website has been removed.

 

[DisAl]

There is very little "privilege" to gain in the parks by using an ECV or wheelchair now. When we were there the first week of June with my mother in a wheelchair, we waited in line just like everybody else. No special privileges, just extra courtesy from cast members to help with boarding. Even if you qualify for a disability pass (we are thankful that we don't) that doesn't let you bypass the lines any more. As I understand it when you show up at an attraction with a disability pass they give you a pass for the fast pass line at a time in the future equivalent to the posted wait time. E.g., if the posted wait time says 1 hour they give you a pass to come back in an hour and get in the fastpass line. That way somebody who for whatever reason can't stand a long crowded line they can avoid the line but the still don't get in any faster than the people waiting in line. Sounds like a fair system to me....
The only place I know of where a wheelchair or ECV puts you ahead now is when boarding the busses. I can't say enough about the courtesy of the bus drivers we encountered during our trip.