Epcot attendance really that bad?

[MJL]

I hear a theme among many here that Epcot attendance is dying and that Epcot is in most need of rehab. Are there any actual statistics on attendance at each of the parks? I say this because Epcot is huge, and it will look rather empty even when well-attended. Secondly, as far as I know Epcot is the 2nd most popular park next to MKingdom, so whats the big deal?
Epcot is still my favorite park in the world because it is truly unique and caters more to adult entertainment, and I know this view is shared among many who visit these boards.

Thanks,
M

 

[Michael72688]

Epcots attendance fell something like 8% (I think) but I do know that Islands of Adventures attandence went up 10%

 

[MrNonacho]

Last year, the only park in Orlando to have an increase in attendence was Islands of Adventure. I'm pretty sure that that's mostly due to them having Halloween Horror Nights there.

 

[CTXRover]

Originally posted by Michael72688
Epcots attendance fell something like 8% (I think) but I do know that Islands of Adventures attandence went up 10%

It did have the"steepest" PERCENTAGE (see below on percentage thing) decline last year among Disney's 4 parks, but it was still the 2nd most attended park in Orlando.

That said, ALL parks (except IOA) saw a decline, including Universal Studios, of 5 to 8%. IOA saw an increase, but from what I've read elsewhere, it is mostly attributed to them moving HHN to IOA last year and not putting any cap on the number of people allowed in (it seems a major complaint was that it was too full that you couldn't even enjoy yourself).

It will be interesting to see if the decline of Epcot continues this year and if IOA goes up or stays the same to really say that either Epcot is "struggling" or IOA is "succeding".

One quick thing to consider, don't just look at percentages. For instance, MK saw 0.74 million less people than last year while Epcot saw 0.72 million less people. That's almost indentical!! In other words, it appears that fewer people (especially internationally) came to WDW as a whole. (By the way, MGM and AK saw about 0.4 million people less, as did Universal Studios. I don't know how to explain the 0.7 vs 0.4 million drop)

 

[pheneix]

>>>not putting any cap on the number of people allowed in<<<

There was indeed a cap (I want to say 42,000), as HHN sold out like 8 or so nights last year. While HHN is being brought up, I should add that the main reason that USF's attendance was down was due to the traditional HHN boost being given to Islands of Adventure. I've heard more than once that USF's daily attendance actually increased as the year went on, and if you look at the AB numbers (a 300k drop for USF vs. a 600k increase for IOA), it does indicate that the Studios did show some small signs of strength as the year went on.

Of course, IOA is growing at a much faster rate than Universal Studios (to the point of outdrawing the Studios), and that is why USF is being brought up to IOA's standards.

As far as Epcot goes, that is kind of misleading. Epcot's attendance during the day is ABSOLUTELY ABYSMAL. Before the Illuminations rush there are days when less than 4,000 people have passed through the gates. However, these horrific numbers are pretty much "saved" by a rush of 8,000 or so people in the afternoon for Illuminations--thus raising the actual attendance numbers to a decent level. However, the sad reality is that for the biggest part of the day Epcot has been bleeding money, and the last precious hours of the day in World Showcase are not making up for it.

And to make matters worse, both sets of Epcot visitors--day guests and Illuminations rush-- are falling fast. There's a growing fear that all Mission Space will be able to do is to halt the slide and maybe help the park have it's entire day balance out (i.e. instead of having 4,000 day guests and 8,000 Illuminations guests there would be 12,000 guests all day). The traditional spike of 1 to 1.5 million guests that a new E-ticket ride usually draws may not happen at Epcot, and that is a very scary thought.

 

[Becky]

Originally posted by pheneix
>>>in<<<



Epcot's attendance during the day is ABSOLUTELY ABYSMAL. Before the Illuminations rush there are days when less than 4,000 people have passed through the gates.

Where do you get your figures? From Universal?

By 10 a.m. there are more than 4,000 cars in the lot. Hum, each car must have less than one person in it.

 

[CTXRover]

Originally posted by pheneix

(Concerning IOA)
There was indeed a cap (I want to say 42,000), as HHN sold out like 8 or so nights last year. .

(Concerning Epcot)
Before the Illuminations rush there are days when less than 4,000 people have passed through the gates. .

Ok, I should have said they didn't put a "special cap" on attendance levels. HHN is an amazing success and they deserve all the credit that they can. However, what I meant by a cap was one like for Mickey's Very Merry Christmas party.

Second, I too would love to know where you got your "4000" number. Why would they even consider designing Mission:Space to handle 2000 people AN HOUR, if they are only getting 4000 people a day. Also, if you do the math, even if they are only getting 8000 people a day (with the "Iluminations rush") that would be a mere 2.9 million people ALL YEAR. I find it extremely hard to believe that number even if the busy times are INSANE!

 

[CTXRover]

Originally posted by Becky
Where do you get your figures? From Universal?

By 10 a.m. there are more than 4,000 cars in the lot. Hum, each car must have less than one person in it.

Not to mention all of the resort guests who come in from the buses or monorail.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by Becky
Where do you get your figures? From Universal?

By 10 a.m. there are more than 4,000 cars in the lot. Hum, each car must have less than one person in it.

What are you saying Becky! You don't believe someone who claims to have the attendence figures of the entire theme park world!?!?!

And, not only that, but if you ask I'm SURE you'll get a lecture about all of the "insiders" he knows! He doesn't even live in the Sunshine State!

Take my advise, be a critical consumer of information and don't believe the crap that spews forth from some people on this (and other) boards.

It kind of reminds me of the little boy on the playground that really wants to be popular. He wants this soooooo bad. So, what does he do? Makes stuff up to seem interesting or cool.

 

[pheneix]

>>>By 10 a.m. there are more than 4,000 cars in the lot. Hum, each car must have less than one person in it.<<<

For the past month or so everything has been out of whack thanks to the weird spring break season (no one was thinking that the spike that occured during the week that we started the War on Iraq would ever happen), but considering all of the days this year that the tram service was shut down out of lack of demand at Epcot, thousands of cars aren't pouring into every waking day of the year (ESPECIALLY in February when the scenario I mentioned before was going on day in and day out. That month's performance played a large role in the panic slashing of hours that was quickly reversed when attendance spiked back up in March).

>>>Also, if you do the math, even if they are only getting 8000 people a day (with the "Iluminations rush")<<<

You mis-understood my post. I mean't for you to add 4,000 and 8,000 to get 12,000 if you were going to get a year-end estimate, and yes that is very low. That is because this summer there will be a lot of 30-40k days that will jack up the year-end average into the 20's, which will throw the year end numbers back into the 7.5 million to 8 million range. In the summer there will also be more resort guests, which will balance out the entire day at Epcot more.

Hey ThreeCircles, it is nice to see you around here. Still as obsessive as always I presume?

 

[CTXRover]

Originally posted by pheneix


You mis-understood my post. I mean't for you to add 4,000 and 8,000 to get 12,000 if you were going to get a year-end estimate, and yes that is very low. That is because this summer there will be a lot of 30-40k days that will jack up the year-end average into the 20's, which will throw the year end numbers back into the 7.5 million to 8 million range. In the summer there will also be more resort guests, which will balance out the entire day at Epcot more.

Whoops, didn't read your original post careful enough. Sorry Well, with 12,000 people a day, that year-end total would be 4.38 million, but like you said, the summer months will help bring it up.

Anyway, your argument was that attendance per day has been awful. When in reality, using your above argument, it really isn't that different from every other year, since Epcot's attendance was around 8.3 million last year anyway (without the war, increased terror levels, scare of SARS, etc.) If those numbers you said in your first post are right, that is just for the "slow season", like every previous slow season. Not any indication that Epcot is suffering.

I still have trouble believing that 8000 people come in just for Illuminations during the late afternoon/evening. Illuminations is a fantastic show, but not that fanatastic to bring in double the number of people that came for the "whole" day. Even if so, those people are still coming in and paying the day to be there (even if they started their day at another park, the ticket was still used) and probably paying for dinner, snacks, maybe souveneirs, etc.

 

[pheneix]

>>>If those numbers you said in your first post are right, that is just for the "slow season", like every previous slow season. Not any indication that Epcot is suffering.<<<

The hard numbers indicate just that, and that is the point I am trying to make. The pattern of people holding out until the last second to visit Epcot has been occuring for quite a while though.

>>>it really isn't that different from every other year, since Epcot's attendance was around 8.3 million last year anyway<<<

Actually it is, since Epcot used to be pulling 12 million visitors a year (and the Magic Kingdom wasn't much higher than it is now either), and it used to keep them entertained all day rather than the last 5 hours of it.

>>>Even if so, those people are still coming in and paying the day to be there (even if they started their day at another park, the ticket was still used) and probably paying for dinner, snacks, maybe souveneirs, etc.<<<

You just said the magic word. Those people came in at the end of the day. What about the morning and early afternoon? What about the thousands of hardcore locals who hold Epcot after 4 passes?

The next time anyone here is at Epcot's rope drop in the morning next month (AFTER the Spring Break rush is over), do yourself a favor and line-up on the WEST side of Spaceship Earth (on the right as you enter the park). There might be 30 to 40 people standing there vs. the several hundred people on the east side waiting for the Test Track Marathon to begin. That's a pretty accurate representation of what the rest of Future World outside of Spaceship Earth, Test Track, and Honey sees. THAT (even more so than the overall declining attendance) is where Epcot's revenue problems lie.

 

[CTXRover]

Originally posted by pheneix
///The hard numbers indicate just that, and that is the point I am trying to make. The pattern of people holding out until the last second to visit Epcot has been occuring for quite a while though.////

"Your" numbers indicate people are park hopping. Its not a crime to end your day at another park :lol: Still, I highly doubt only 4000 people come in during the morning. But maybe you are right. Rememeber, as you said, that was during the very slow season (Jan and Feb.) when war, terror threats, and economic worries were highly prevelant and without "kids" (and maybe their families) coming down for Spring Break.

////Actually it is, since Epcot used to be pulling 12 million visitors a year (and the Magic Kingdom wasn't much higher than it is now either), and it used to keep them entertained all day rather than the last 5 hours of it. ////

What? Yea, Epcot may have been pulling in 12 million. HOWEVER, consider when those numbers occured. Better economy, great international travel, boost due to millenium celebration, opening of AK (which did spread people out). It has been decreasing, but so have ALL the parks. My original point was to show that NUMBER-wise, Epcot didn't have a greater decrease than the true reason most people come to Orlando for, the Magic Kingdom


////You just said the magic word. Those people came in at the end of the day. What about the morning and early afternoon? What about the thousands of hardcore locals who hold Epcot after 4 passes?///

Hardcore locals. No problem there. They must love the place to be "hardcore"

As for my "magic word". It is absolutely no hidden secret that many people park hop. That's why they made the park hopper tickets. People alternate between ALL of the parks because of that pass. I know I do. I still have trouble believing people only come to Epcot at night for Illuminations. You might, but a lot of people don't (I'm sure there are people who do though )

////The next time anyone here is at Epcot's rope drop in the morning next month (AFTER the Spring Break rush is over), do yourself a favor and line-up on the WEST side of Spaceship Earth (on the right as you enter the park). There might be 30 to 40 people standing there vs. the several hundred people on the east side waiting for the Test Track Marathon to begin. That's a pretty accurate representation of what the rest of /////

What is wrong with people wanting to go to one of the most popular rides in the park? Maybe they are making the rush to get fastpasses? The same thing happens at a lot of parks. For instance, IOA. I've gone there during the busy times and almost everyone goes to the Hulk and Spiderman first, because they are great rides. Go to JP (like I usually do) and you will literally get to ride JP river adventure by yourself. As the day does on, people spread out at both parks.

----EDIT-----
By the way, would you mind shedding a little light on where you are getting your numbers from? I'm just curious. Could you compare those numbers to the other parks (MK, AK, Studios, Universal, IOA) during the VERY slow time of Jan. and Feb., when you are saying these "4000" numbers were occuring. I've been to all of the parks above before during the slower times and all the parks at one time or another seemed somewhat "empty". However, Epcot is HUGE, making it appear less people are there than other parks.

I don't want to start an ongoing debate as this is turning out to be, but I have trouble believing your numbers. I can vivdly remembering you saying LAST year that Epcot was doing so bad that it would be the least attended of all the Disney parks and maybe even Universal. Well, the final numbers indicated differently (although, MGM and Epcot were pretty close, so I'll give you that )

 

[Testtrack321]

Phenix, I know you have good sources, but what are you smoking in your hyped up Universal-is-god world? While I can say that today at PKD there were around 4,000 guests, 4,000 guests at Epcot is HALF of what DCA gets. As the song goes "One pill makes you large, one makes you small, the ones your mother gives you does nothing at all."

 

[mlayton14]

What are your sources?

Pheneix, what exactly ARE your sources? Secondly, why dont you share some "hard" numbers with the forum? Not around 4000 here and 12000 there, just take your numbers for theme park attendance, copy and paste my friend, it will make your arguments credible.

 

[mlayton14]

And while youre at it

Please post the park attendance numbers for USF and IOA ... very interested to see.

 

[ArchiDanDisney]

I'm not so excited to the fact that Phenix is making this a personal vendetta towards a certain member of the forum. I also would like to see some hard figures...

 

[pheneix]

>>>Its not a crime to end your day at another park<<<

No, it's not, but this pattern of having a lack of visitors during the day followed by 4 or 5 hours of normal attendance just doesn't cut it. If it helps my point a little better, I should point out how until AK added a parade they had a similar problem of the first several hours of the operating day being very busy only to be followed by a ghost town at 3 pm.

>>>Rememeber, as you said, that was during the very slow season (Jan and Feb.) when war, terror threats, and economic worries were highly prevelant and without "kids" (and maybe their families) coming down for Spring Break.<<<

That's true, but the pattern I have been describing has been occuring for a long time running. Just substitute 4k and 8k with 12k and 15k and you get a summer day.

>>>It has been decreasing, but so have ALL the parks.<<<

True, but no other park can claim that a 1/3 of its attendance has been wiped out too.

>>>What is wrong with people wanting to go to one of the most popular rides in the park?<<<

I knew my intentions of that analogy would probably fall flat, and I wish I had spent some time describing it better, but what I am trying to say is that while Test Track is sitting on a 45 minute wait all day, the rest of the park is devoid of life. Anyone been on Spaceship Earth at 3 in the afternoon? How about Journey after lunch? Over at the Magic Kingdom no one really sees Space sitting on a 45 minute wait while the rest of the park is twirling their thumbs.

Now, compare that with what World Showcase is like at 7 p.m. It's like two totally different parks (forgiving the fact that for the most part they are totally different).

>>>just take your numbers for theme park attendance, copy and paste my friend, it will make your arguments credible<<<

No sense beating around the bush here...

NO!

>>>I'm not so excited to the fact that Phenix is making this a personal vendetta towards a certain member of the forum.<<<

If you're talking about Three Circles, I don't have any kind of vendetta against him. I don't really give a flying crap what he thinks, and I'm not going to search him out to tell him that. That being said, he is an annoyance, and if he is in may way I'm not going to deny my self the opportunity to push back.

 

[ArchiDanDisney]

In these past few posts, it seems as though you are an annoyance with your fuzzy stats. Give us some solid figures.

 

[pheneix]

"Fuzzy" stats keep jobs safe, and to be honest I'd rather have someone call me a liar than have a statistician tell me they're fired.