DVC owners speculatively booking prime vacation times and renting them for profit

mprewitt

New Member
Original Poster
This post concerns the practice of some members booking "choice/prime" reservations, not with the intent of actually using them for themselves, their family, or their friends, but with the sole intent of selling them to a non-DVC member for profit. I believe that this speculative booking with the intent of renting is unfair to other DVC members.

I am not against transferring of points between DVC members. I am not against renting of excess or unusable points to non-DVC members. I don't have a problem with members renting confirmed reservations that they initially had intended on using, but now something has come up that prevents them from doing so.

I do have a problem with members booking choice reservations (choice times: Christmas/New Years; choice rooms: Grand Villa; choice locations: BCV during F&W) with the intent of never using them, but with the sole intent of selling the reservations for profit.

A reservation made for rental purposes is likely to be held for many months awaiting a non-member who is interested in the specific date / resort / room size that has been booked. I don't think anyone objects to people booking trips for actual use, nor do they object to rental transactions where a room is booked as a result of a request from the renter. It's the speculative renting that rubs people the wrong way.

I feel this practice is detrimental to other DVC members, as it hurts their chances of booking those "choice" reservations themselves.

It’s undeniable that if people stop pre-booking reservations for the sole purpose of renting months down the road, more people will be successful at booking their preferred accommodation at 11 or 7 months.

DVC and the POS prohibit commercial (i.e., for profit) renting, speculative or otherwise. Using DVC primarily to rent and make a profit (speculatively of high demand times or not) falls under that definition.

Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in this Declaration is expressly prohibited. "Commercial Purposes" includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

There are various Disney-related web sites that host forums for DVC topics. Some allow the posting of “rental” advertising. These boards are probably the main reason renting even exists. Without these boards, there would surely be a lot fewer owners renting points or reservations to strangers, and most of us would not even know renting existed or feel any effect from it. The boards may not have any legal obligation or responsibility to manage the DVC program, but they certainly have influenced (and continue to influence) the way members use the program. So a case could be made that the boards have some obligation to mitigate the negative effects of their influence.

I appreciate the new rules implemented on the largest rent/trade board (The DIS) to lessen speculative renting by both casual and commercial renters for the benefit of most members. I am proud that the DIS had the courage to take the steps they did. They saw a problem and understood that as the largest rental board around, they had an obligation to do what they could to improve the situation for the vast majority of DVC owners.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
Wow, had never even thought about doing this. Thanks for putting that idea in my head. Ooooh, moneymoneymoneymoneymoney...

j/k :D

Never would've guessed that was so much of an issue, but if it is, then what kind of recourse is there? I'm serious. If someone keeps booking prime times of the year, only to subsequently sell/auction their vacation to a third party, would Disney have to prove that the DVC owner is doing it specifically to make money? How many years would someone have to do it before they arouse suspicion? Can Disney fine the DVC member? Can they limit the amount of times a member books during the holidays? Can they switch holiday bookings using points to a lottery system? (I'm guessing the answer to the last 2 questions would be "no" being as a member can complain that those are the types of changes that would've influenced their decision into buying DVC in the first place) I'm genuinely curious how, if at all, Disney would investigate whether people are using their DVC membership as a money-making venture, and what they'd do if they discovered someone was.
 

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
Im not even sure that Disney could prove that someone is renting for profit. How would you guage what constitutes profit? Once your initial "investment" is paid off, would have to rent them for free? I think this is something that would be very difficult to sheriff. Further, I would think that compared to the vast number of DVC members, if this is truley going on, it would be very minimal. I could be wrong though. Ive already been wrong once so far this year....
 

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
Don't they ask for a name when you book?

And when you check in?
:veryconfu
DVC Since 1999
And Never would do that!

Yes, but you can make the reservation in anyones name. If you are renting points to someone else, they would pay you the agreed price, then you would make the reservation in their name for them.
 

mprewitt

New Member
Original Poster
The only thing that Disney currently does, to my knowledge, is to look for members who make 20 reservations per year for occupants that aren't the member. That only catches the large commercial renters.

My only suggestion would be to have DVC treat a change in occupant names that occurs 3 months after a booking has been made as a cancellation and a re-booking (but first applying any wait-listed members).

When someone books a speculative reservation, they book with themselves as the occupant. When they sell the reservation, they call MS and change the name.
 

KeithVH

Well-Known Member
I'm not so sure equating "commercial" with "for profit" as the same thing applies in this instance. Needs a lawyer. Past that, I'm trying to find where it says that life is fair. Maybe we need to be blaming a free market economy.
 

DABIGCHEEZ

Well-Known Member
Mprewitt..... I am sure by the number of points you must have and based on the number of times/year you go you can get your requested room/ view / time of year you desire at some point.
 

mprewitt

New Member
Original Poster
Mprewitt..... I am sure by the number of points you must have and based on the number of times/year you go you can get your requested room/ view / time of year you desire at some point.

No, I haven't been personally affected by the practice. I always book my home resorts at the 11-mo window and get what I want.
 

hansel1

Member
The OP might recall a very long and heated debate over at the DIS boards. One gentleman in particular had a gross amount of points and would rent them out for profit. That particular person would book prime locations and seasons to maximize his profits.

He was upset because disney sent him the "20+ letter". They basically told him he would not be allowed to use his points after the 20th reservation within a 12 month period.

The bottom line is people who purchase DVC to make a profit don't see this as a problem. They feel entitled to book whatever, whenever and then rent that to whoever.

The gentleman in question made various comments about his practice, giving many different excuses as to why he has so many points. Ultimately he was outed as a "for profit renter". He had used ebay to list many of his rentals and in his posts for renting was shown to have used many of the best seasons and properties.

I have not been affected by this type of action, but I try to book 11 months out for a non-peak season.
 

Lynne M

Active Member
I understand your point, but I don't see how DVC could realistically put a stop to this kind of activity.

1. They could make a rule stating that all reservations must be in the member's name, and that the member must be present to check in. Well, that's going to REALLY upset people who want to give a DVC stay as a gift to parents, children, in-laws, friends, etc. That's one of the reasons I bought DVC, and I'm sure I have lots of company. Many people would see that as a de-valuation of their membership.

2. They could make a rule stating that you can't rent for profit. OK, that would require that DVC review every rental transaction for evidence of profit, and perform a complicated calculation factoring in the owner's maintenance fees, outstanding loans on points (whether or not those loans are held by Disney), and interest on said loans. And then allow or deny the rental based on that calculation. Somehow, I doubt that Disney wants to go that route.

3. The only realistic option: what Disney's doing now. Monitoring patterns of reservations. I've heard that they have people monitoring eBay for potentially fradulent ticket transactions; I'll bet they also look out for multiple DVC rentals that go for exorbitant prices.

I also think that this practice has minimal impact for those who call day-by-day for busy seasons. Everyone's competing on a level playing field at that point. If you can't get a reservation for Christmas, it might be because someone's selling that reservation on eBay for a profit. It could just as easily be because an owner made a reservation as a gift for their honeymooning daughter and son-in-law.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
The only thing that Disney currently does, to my knowledge, is to look for members who make 20 reservations per year for occupants that aren't the member. That only catches the large commercial renters.

My only suggestion would be to have DVC treat a change in occupant names that occurs 3 months after a booking has been made as a cancellation and a re-booking (but first applying any wait-listed members).

When someone books a speculative reservation, they book with themselves as the occupant. When they sell the reservation, they call MS and change the name.

I'm guessing if Disney sees or starts to see this as a problem, it might be withi their rights to start questioning people as soon as the 2nd or third speculative reservation is then switched over to someone else's name. I'm sure we all understand the idea of, say, booking a reservation hoping to give a gift to a family member or friend as a gift, then confirming the res in their name when you know they can go. But after a few changes like that a year, it's fair to be suspicious, and they can start saying after a few name changes like that, the reservation can only be confirmed if no one else has requested a room at that time, and I'm SURE there are ALWAYS requests in the mix...

But the flip side to that is, is Disney within their rights to do that? Or is the agreement people sign when they become members not open to a revision of DVC policies? Or can DVC members - who are techincally part owners for as log as their deed is valid - be allowed to vote on a change in policy much like a condo association might have votes on changes in Association policy?
 

mprewitt

New Member
Original Poster
But the flip side to that is, is Disney within their rights to do that? Or is the agreement people sign when they become members not open to a revision of DVC policies? Or can DVC members - who are techincally part owners for as log as their deed is valid - be allowed to vote on a change in policy much like a condo association might have votes on changes in Association policy?

Of course Disney is within their rights. Just think of the new waitlist policy they adopted on June 1st. There was no vote on that, was there?
 

freediverdude

Well-Known Member
Well I don't agree with the new posting policy over at the DIS, and I am a long time DIS member. I am not a DVC owner. I have rented a few small reservations in off peak times. But in my opinion, this is something that Disney should be policing if they want to, not DIS moderators who want to police others. Every owner has the same chance when that 11 month or 7 month window opens up. Disney does monitor the accounts which have a lot of points and tend to have many rentals. If I were a 150 point or 300 point owner, and found that I was not going to use points that year, you bet your bippy that I would trying to get the most out of them for a rental, probably by trying to get Christmas week or something and renting it, and that would be within Disney's policy. If Disney is only policing accounts that exceed 20 rentals in a year, then that would be their definition of "commercial".
 

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