DVC Lifetime Costs - My Spreadsheet

[Woody13]

You really should learn to tell the whole truth.

$48 per point was the initial offer for OKW. It now costs $78 per point in resale, a 63% increase. Inflation has averaged 2.4% per year during the last 14 years for a 43% increase over 14 years.

So basically OKW owners have been able to reserve rooms for the last 14 years at an ave. cost of $3.5 per point(just the maint fee). They could now sell and have made 63% on their purchase. So they have been staying in a studio, onsite at multiple hotels, for about $45 per night. I guess the next thing we will hear is that you can get Deluxe rooms for $70 a night at BC, BW, OKW, etc.

DVC is a great way to go if you like staying onsite, as well as enjoy the high standards of deluxes, or want a 1 or 2 bedroom onsite instead of two rooms for your larger family/group.

Well, your figures are correct, if you use the CPI (Consumer Price Index). However, the CPI does not reflect real estate values. The CPI does not include investment items, such as stocks, bonds, real estate, and life insurance. (These items relate to savings and not to day-to-day consumption expenses). The actual inflation of real estate values in that area during the last 14 years has greatly outpaced anything the DVC has to offer. I'd tell you the figure, but I want you to research it yourself. Perhaps you will learn something in the process.

Therefore, all of your calculations are totally wrong and based upon erroneous information. That is an all too common occurrence with DVC spreadsheets. I see you as a DVC victim. DVC has a rather subtle, yet very strong, sales pitch. People feel secure in the idea that they have "locked in" their DVC price. They mistakenly think that normal monetary inflation will cause the "other people" to pay higher rates. Actually the opposite is true. The DVC member is the one that pays the high price because they are "locked in" to the price they paid and the maintenance fees. The average visitor can shop for accommodations and discounts abound.

For those that desire to pay the high price of the DVC, that's fine with me. Go ahead, it's your money and if you wish to spend it on a bad deal, go ahead. However, I find it rather disingenuous when DVC owners try to tell other people that the DVC will save them money. Their motives and/or lack of common sense and simple math skills disturb me.

I have found that truth is generally the best vindication against slander.

 

[socalkdg]

Well, your figures are correct, if you use the CPI (Consumer Price Index).

The DVC member is the one that pays the high price because they are "locked in" to the price they paid and the maintenance fees. The average visitor can shop for accommodations and discounts abound.

However, I find it rather disingenuous when DVC owners try to tell other people that the DVC will save them money. Their motives and/or lack of common sense and simple math skills disturb me.

I have found that truth is generally the best vindication against slander.

You stated "The resale values of OKW have not even kept pace with normal inflation rates during the last 14 years." Is your comment above an agreement that you were wrong with this statement?

Show me how you can book 9 days per year at a WDW deluxe for the next 14 years at a cheaper rate than DVC. You talk about discounts. Show them. If you can do this I'll sell my DVC at a profit and go your route. Otherwise you aren't offering anything to this discussion.

 

[HauntedPirate]

DVC isn't for everyone - If you want to stay off-site, by all means, go ahead and search out discounts; DVC isn't for you. But don't sit there and essentially call those who decide to buy into the DVC idiots.

 

[Aurora_25]

For those that desire to pay the high price of the DVC, that's fine with me. Go ahead, it's your money and if you wish to spend it on a bad deal, go ahead. However, I find it rather disingenuous when DVC owners try to tell other people that the DVC will save them money. Their motives and/or lack of common sense and simple math skills disturb me.

I have found that truth is generally the best vindication against slander.

Excuse me, but are you saying that I cannot do simple math? Because my husband and I have done the math and the DVC actually does save us money over the long run. No, we didn't look into buying a house in the Orlando area because we didn't want to be responsible for the maintenance of it. But we do go to Disney every year and spend alot of money on hotels and parks- maybe the DVC doesn't make "sense" money wise to you, but it obviously does to others so please don't say that the people that buy DVC don't have math skills.

And also- we aren't thinking about a "resale" value or anything like that- we are thinking of all the memories we will have as a family because we will be able to take a family trip every year whereas if we didn't have DVC, that wouldn't be possible.

 

[Woody13]

Excuse me, but are you saying that I cannot do simple math? Because my husband and I have done the math and the DVC actually does save us money over the long run. No, we didn't look into buying a house in the Orlando area because we didn't want to be responsible for the maintenance of it. But we do go to Disney every year and spend alot of money on hotels and parks- maybe the DVC doesn't make "sense" money wise to you, but it obviously does to others so please don't say that the people that buy DVC don't have math skills.

And also- we aren't thinking about a "resale" value or anything like that- we are thinking of all the memories we will have as a family because we will be able to take a family trip every year whereas if we didn't have DVC, that wouldn't be possible.

Show me how you can book 9 days per year at a WDW deluxe for the next 14 years at a cheaper rate than DVC. You talk about discounts. Show them. If you can do this I'll sell my DVC at a profit and go your route. Otherwise you aren't offering anything to this discussion.

I have seen many spreadsheets that detail the great savings afforded by the DVC. All these spreadsheets have two things in common. First, they never depreciate the value of the DVC membership and second, they always compare the DVC costs to other Disney Resorts rack rates during peak season. I have regularly visited WDW for over 25 years and I have never paid rack rate for any room. I normally get a discount of anywhere from 35% to 50% because I am a Florida resident and I always visit WDW during the "value" season.

Let's say you want to stay a week in a 3br beach front cottage at Disney Vero Beach Resort. Well, as a DVC member that will cost you 529 points in the summer. 529 points would cost 85 x 529 = $44,965 for use every year from now until 2054. The annual maintenance would be 529 x 3.8 = $2,010 per year assuming no inflation. The cost of capital at a very conservative 6% would cost $44,965 x .06 = $2,698 (think home equity loan assuming you would take one out to pay Disney upfront). The annual depreciation of your capital cost would be equivalent to a 50 year flat line depreciation since your $44,965 will be worth $0 on Feb 1, 2054. So, that depreciation is $44,965 / 50 = $899. So, your cost to stay a week in the summer in a 3br cottage at Disney Vero Beach every year for the next 40 years by buying at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spawould be $2010 + $2,698 + $899 = $5,607 per year. Disney Vero Beach rents that same unit for $700 per night. A non-owner pays only $4,900 while an owner pays $5,607. Alternatively, I can rent points from DVC owners at $10 per point. That method would only cost me $5,290.

Now. let's take a look closer to "home". Suppose you want to stay a week at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time, "Adventure Season". If you stay in a one bedroom vacation home, that will cost you 182 points. A DVC member will pay (at a discount) 85 x 182 = $15,470 for use every year until 2054. The annual maintenance fee is 182 x 3.8 = $692 per year assuming no inflation. Cost of capital is $928. Annual depreciation is $309. So, your cost to stay a week at the Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time every year for the next 40 years would be (692 + 928 + 309) $1,929. That's $276 per night!

So, all I need to do is find a deluxe resort during value season that costs less than $276 per night and I've got you beat! I direct your attention to a cut and paste from mousesavers:

Animal Kingdom Lodge - value season $139 standard view; value season $220 savannah view
Wilderness Lodge - value season $195 courtyard view; regular season $230 courtyard view
Ft. Wilderness Cabins - value season $174; regular season $204
Boardwalk/Beach Club/Yacht Club - value season $234 standard; regular season $264 standard


Or, I could just rent DVC points at the standard going rate of $10.00 per point and still only pay $1,820 for my week at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa. Also, I have rented DVC points on many occasions and I have never paid as high at $10.00 per point. DVC points are always available for less.

So, I have the advantages of being able to stay at different locations on property and staying at those locations for less than what a DVC member pays. I can even rent at a DVC resort or I can stay in a value if I prefer to do so, or I can stay off property. You, as a DVC member are locked into a high priced, prepayed vacation.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Hey, some people want to be DVC members. Its not for me or us or anyone to look down on them for wanting to do that. Clearly its not for some people but for others, its what they want. Which is great, IMO

 

[Woody13]

Hey, some people want to be DVC members. Its not for me or us or anyone to look down on them for wanting to do that. Clearly its not for some people but for others, its what they want. Which is great, IMO

Me too! :wave: It chaps me when they say the DVC saves money or is a monetary "investment". It's an expensive, prepaid vacation plan.

 

[DisneyPhD]

Now. let's take a look closer to "home". Suppose you want to stay a week at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time, "Adventure Season". If you stay in a one bedroom vacation home, that will cost you 182 points. A DVC member will pay (at a discount) 85 x 182 = $15,470 for use every year until 2054. The annual maintenance fee is 182 x 3.8 = $692 per year assuming no inflation. Cost of capital is $928. Annual depreciation is $309. So, your cost to stay a week at the Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time every year for the next 40 years would be (692 + 928 + 309) $1,929. That's $276 per night!

So, all I need to do is find a deluxe resort during value season that costs less than $276 per night and I've got you beat! I direct your attention to a cut and paste from mousesavers:

Animal Kingdom Lodge - value season $139 standard view; value season $220 savannah view
Wilderness Lodge - value season $195 courtyard view; regular season $230 courtyard view
Ft. Wilderness Cabins - value season $174; regular season $204
Boardwalk/Beach Club/Yacht Club - value season $234 standard; regular season $264 standard
.

You really don't like to tell the whole story do you Woody :animwink: . First of all, you're comparing a 1-bedroom villa to a regular deluxe hotel room. A 1-BR gives you twice the space and a full kitchen so you're way off base there. A studio (essentially a regular deluxe room) will cost about HALF of your estimate in DVC!!! Second, you always assume people finance. Take out the cost of capital and DVC drops to $143 a night!!!! You also forgot to add all the taxes into your mousesaver prices. I can't book AKL for less than $150 per night tax included with the annual pass Best Rate program, so I find it hard to believe you can beat that. Not everybody can book Fl resident or AP rates either. :wave:

 

[tjkraz]

I normally get a discount of anywhere from 35% to 50% because I am a Florida resident and I always visit WDW during the "value" season.

OK, so at least we know up front that your numbers will only apply to FL residents...

Now. let's take a look closer to "home". Suppose you want to stay a week at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time, "Adventure Season". If you stay in a one bedroom vacation home, that will cost you 182 points. A DVC member will pay (at a discount) 85 x 182 = $15,470 for use every year until 2054. The annual maintenance fee is 182 x 3.8 = $692 per year assuming no inflation. Cost of capital is $928. Annual depreciation is $309. So, your cost to stay a week at the Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time every year for the next 40 years would be (692 + 928 + 309) $1,929. That's $276 per night!

So, all I need to do is find a deluxe resort during value season that costs less than $276 per night and I've got you beat! I direct your attention to a cut and paste from mousesavers:

Animal Kingdom Lodge - value season $139 standard view; value season $220 savannah view
Wilderness Lodge - value season $195 courtyard view; regular season $230 courtyard view
Ft. Wilderness Cabins - value season $174; regular season $204
Boardwalk/Beach Club/Yacht Club - value season $234 standard; regular season $264 standard

I'm not necessarily sold on the manner in which you're addressing the "Cost of Capital", but I'll play along for a moment.

Why are we comparing a DVC One Bedroom Villa (700+ sq ft, washer / dryer, full kitchen, whirlpool tub) to an obviously inferior WDW Deluxe room?

To follow your logic, a DVC Studio room in the same season is 95 points for the week.

95 x $85 = $8075
Depreciation = $161 / yr
Dues = $361 / yr
Cost of Capital (at same 6%) = $484 / yr

Total cost = $1006 per year or $143 per night

You also well know that Friday and Saturday nights are much more expensive than weekdays. For those satisfied with Sunday - Thursday stays, the numbers get even better.

55 pts x $85 = $4675
Depreciation = $93 / yr
Dues = $209 / yr
Cost of Capital = $280 / yr

Total cost = $582 / year or $116 per night

Other notes:

1. The point numbers listed above are for Saratoga Springs. Even cheaper options are available via Old Key West (80 per week, 40 Su - Th) or Boardwalk Standard View (85 per week, 45 Su - Th)

2. Don't forget to add the 11.5% resort tax to cash rates. The discounted rates noted above range from $139 to $234 per night. With tax those rates are actually $155 to 261 per night.

3. Of the items in your DVC calculation, the only one subject to inflation is the annual dues. In my 7-night studio example the dues start at $209 per year. Meanwhile the 7-night cash cost of AKL (at $155 per night) is $1085 per year. In the long run, inflation will have a MUCH greater impact on $1085 than it will on $209.

4. If you're going to depreciate the initial purchase annually, you have to reduce the "Cost of Capital" basis by the same amount. In my 7-night studio example, the intial purchase is $8075 and depreciation is $161. By Year 2, the basis for your Cost of Captial is $7914 (8075 - 161.) At 6%, the Cost of Captial goes down from $484 in Year One to $474 in Year Two. By Year Fifty, the CoC will be $0.00.

5. Most people using a home equity line to finance (or financing through DVC) will be able to deduct the interest paid on their 1040. The property tax component of annual dues is also deductible.

6. Annual Passholder discounts are fluid--DVC is a certainty. Dues will increase, but since the law mandates that dues be based upon the operating budgets of the resorts, it's not as if Disney can arbitrarily increase the dues at a high level "just because they feel like it." And who can really predict what form AP discounts will take in the next 10...20...30 years.

The new "Best Rate" program has already taken a big swipe at the flexibility of AP bookings. Guests must now book a minimum of 60 days out AND give a non-refundable deposit at the time of the reservation. Finally, there's no way to even know how big of a discount one will get under this program. The only guarantee is that guests will receive the "best rate" available, but whether that is $200 off of rack or $20 off of rack will not be known until much later.

Or, I could just rent DVC points at the standard going rate of $10.00 per point and still only pay $1,820 for my week at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa. Also, I have rented DVC points on many occasions and I have never paid as high at $10.00 per point. DVC points are always available for less.

And that's true....today. What will happen in 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?

Some resorts already have dues well over $4 per point. Will people continue to rent points at or under $10 each indefinitely? Certainly not.

And even today, the savings are minimal. In my 7-night studio example example you have a total trip cost of $1006. Renting points at $10 each costs you $950.

What happens if you get ripped-off by a member? What happens if you have to cancel a trip (smart renters don't allow cancellations)?

Owners get to take advantage of some fairly nice perks, including $100 off of the price of an Annual Pass and $125 off of the PAP. Renters have limited (if any) access to the perks.

 

[socalkdg]

Let's say you want to stay a week in a 3br beach front cottage at Disney Vero Beach Resort. Well, as a DVC member that will cost you 529 points in the summer. 529 points would cost 85 x 529 = $44,965 for use every year from now until 2054. The annual maintenance would be 529 x 3.8 = $2,010 per year assuming no inflation. The cost of capital at a very conservative 6% would cost $44,965 x .06 = $2,698 (think home equity loan assuming you would take one out to pay Disney upfront). The annual depreciation of your capital cost would be equivalent to a 50 year flat line depreciation since your $44,965 will be worth $0 on Feb 1, 2054. So, that depreciation is $44,965 / 50 = $899. So, your cost to stay a week in the summer in a 3br cottage at Disney Vero Beach every year for the next 40 years by buying at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spawould be $2010 + $2,698 + $899 = $5,607 per year. Disney Vero Beach rents that same unit for $700 per night. A non-owner pays only $4,900 while an owner pays $5,607. Alternatively, I can rent points from DVC owners at $10 per point. That method would only cost me $5,290.

Now. let's take a look closer to "home". Suppose you want to stay a week at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time, "Adventure Season". If you stay in a one bedroom vacation home, that will cost you 182 points. A DVC member will pay (at a discount) 85 x 182 = $15,470 for use every year until 2054. The annual maintenance fee is 182 x 3.8 = $692 per year assuming no inflation. Cost of capital is $928. Annual depreciation is $309. So, your cost to stay a week at the Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa during the least expensive time every year for the next 40 years would be (692 + 928 + 309) $1,929. That's $276 per night!

So, all I need to do is find a deluxe resort during value season that costs less than $276 per night and I've got you beat! I direct your attention to a cut and paste from mousesavers:

Animal Kingdom Lodge - value season $139 standard view; value season $220 savannah view
Wilderness Lodge - value season $195 courtyard view; regular season $230 courtyard view
Ft. Wilderness Cabins - value season $174; regular season $204
Boardwalk/Beach Club/Yacht Club - value season $234 standard; regular season $264 standard

Or, I could just rent DVC points at the standard going rate of $10.00 per point and still only pay $1,820 for my week at Saratoga Springs Resort and Spa. Also, I have rented DVC points on many occasions and I have never paid as high at $10.00 per point. DVC points are always available for less.

So, I have the advantages of being able to stay at different locations on property and staying at those locations for less than what a DVC member pays. I can even rent at a DVC resort or I can stay in a value if I prefer to do so, or I can stay off property. You, as a DVC member are locked into a high priced, prepayed vacation.

First, thanks for providing some numbers. Even though you are wrong, at least you are trying to back it up with numbers instead of just talk.


Your errors were posted above very nicely, so I'll skip that. Lets look at a real life example of someone with $10,000 cash about to make a decision.

I have $10,000 and I wish to take a vacation for the next 8 years, starting next month. Two choices.


$10,000 for points vs. $10,000 cash, take vacation, invest balance, then do it again one year later. I’ll use WL which was in the middle ($200 per night), even though I can score Boardwalk cheaper on points.


If you had $10,000 you can buy 117 points. 117 points can get you 9 days in a studio at VWL. I purchased BWV and I get 9 days in a studio at BWV for 103 points. 9 days is my standard vacation so that’s what I’ll use for this exercise. Over 8 years I’ll spend an additional $3200 in maintenance for DVC, or $400 per year. So after 8 years I’ll have spent $13,200 total.


Now lets see what you can do with your 10,000 + 400 per year. You can take a vacation, and then invest the rest. At WL it costs you $2000 for 9 days (includes tax). Lets give you a 10% return on the balance. After one year you now have $9200. Time for another $2000, 9-day vacation. After two years you’re down to $8300. 3 years, down to $7350. 5 years $5115. Etc. Your 10,000 will last for 8 vacations until your capitol is down to $450. No more vacations.


So after 8 years we have both spent about $13,000, both had great vacations. But wait, guess what, I still have a DVC membership, now only costing me my maintenance fees since I depreciated my initial $10,000 in those first 8 years. So you can spend another $13,000 for years 9-16, while I only spend $3200 for years 9-16.

The one thing not included here is inflation, which hits both room prices and maintenance fees. Lets say they both go up 3% per year. After 8 years the hotel room is at $253, or $53 more per night, or $477 more per vacation. Maintenance goes from 3.8 to 4.81, or $118 more per vacation. Hmm, no wonder you didn’t include inflation, it increases the gap even more.

 

[Woody13]

:kiss:

You really don't like to tell the whole story do you Woody :animwink: . First of all, you're comparing a 1-bedroom villa to a regular deluxe hotel room. A 1-BR gives you twice the space and a full kitchen so you're way off base there. A studio (essentially a regular deluxe room) will cost about HALF of your estimate in DVC!!! Second, you always assume people finance. Take out the cost of capital and DVC drops to $143 a night!!!! You also forgot to add all the taxes into your mousesaver prices. I can't book AKL for less than $150 per night tax included with the annual pass Best Rate program, so I find it hard to believe you can beat that. Not everybody can book Fl resident or AP rates either. :wave:

Actually, I anticipated that someone would use the "apples and oranges" example. :wave: That is why I also pointed out that I can still rent DVC points for less than a what a DVC member pays for them even if I pay the "going rate" of $10 per point. So, I can still stay in the exact same accommodations for less money and I am not locked into an expensive long term contract.

There are several other forums that specialize in trading and renting DVC points. The normal asking price is $10 per point, but I often see them offered for less. People bid on these points. As in any other auction, sellers seldom get their asking price. Time is not on the seller's side. As I have stated, I have rented DVC points on several previous stays and I have never paid $10 per point.

I did not assume that people finance their DVC purchase. It is a fact that most people that purchase the DVC borrow the money to do so. Most people just don't have $15,000 or $20,000 laying around that they are not using. The majority therefore finance their DVC purchase. However, for the minority that have the cash to pay upfront we would then need to look at the loss of 40 years of compound interest or equity appreciation they would have gained from that money in an investment vehicle. I didn't want to make the example too complex so I didn't go that deep into those aspects.

Also, the DVC offers their own financing plan, but most DVC buyers don't use it because the rates are too high! I used a very conservative rate of 6%. Most people aren't going to qualify for a rate that low but I wanted to give the DVC owner every realistic possible benefit I could. Please note that I based this rate upon a secured home equity loan. Rates and terms are going to vary based upon the individual consumer. I decided upon a "best case" scenario for my example. In reality, it will be much more expensive for many people.

No, I did not forget to add the tax into the hotel room prices. I left them out on purpose, for the sake of simplicity. Tax implications can be factored but it doesn't change the base assumptions. For the AKL the room tax rate is 12% (resort tax of 5% and a combined sales tax of 7%) as I recall. Room taxes at the Walt Disney Resort vary depending upon whether you are located in Orange or Osceola county. If you want to put the room tax in, go ahead. It doesn't significantly change the premise.

Too be fair, I also used $85 per point as the current cost. In reality, the current cost for the SSR is $95 per point if you buy directly from the DVC. Now, points can be purchased through a resale agent for $85 per point, but then you have to pay additional closing costs. So, again in the interest of simplicity, I decided not to included those extra DVC costs. So, all in all, I think I was being fair on both sides. I wanted to show a "best case" scenario for the average DVC purchaser. However, if you desire to add in the additional closing costs, go ahead.

Also, I flat lined the membership dues (i.e. maintenance fees, taxes, etc.) so, again to be more than fair, I low balled that cost.

I realize that not everyone can book their rooms using Florida resident or AP discounts. However, there are other discounts available such as AAA, Canadian resident, Airline Employee and Travel Agent discounts to name a few. Now, the general public discounts have really dried up this year and that makes things tight for people that don't qualify for other discount rates. It certainly limits their options but they can still consider renting DVC points.

In conclusion, let me say, I love you DisneyPhD. :kiss: We have discussed this at great length before and we both have our opinions on the matter. IMO, while there might be some very good reasons for some people to buy the DVC, for most people it is not a good deal and it is a very expensive prepaid vacation package. I have determined that for my family and I, the DVC is great....as long as we rent points from a member. If we bought into the DVC, it would be a big financial mistake because we have always been able to get good accommodations at WDW for far less money.

Let me leave you with this thought. Did you ever wonder why you see so many DVC booths in the parks and the resorts?

 

[tjkraz]

:kiss:
Actually, I anticipated that someone would use the "apples and oranges" example. :wave: That is why I also pointed out that I can still rent DVC points for less than a what a DVC member pays for them even if I pay the "going rate" of $10 per point.

Then why bother introducing a flawed argument in the first place? Excellent job of discrediting your own position.

No, I did not forget to add the tax into the hotel room prices. I left them out on purpose, for the sake of simplicity.

Seems pretty simple to add them in. See my post.

Tax implications can be factored but it doesn't change the base assumptions.

Sure they do. They add 11.5 - 12% to all cash prices. Period. There are no taxes anywhere along the way in the DVC pricing.

Too be fair, I also used $85 per point as the current cost. In reality, the current cost for the SSR is $95 per point if you buy directly from the DVC.

Actually it's $90 per point--base price of $98 less $8 promotional discount offered to all buyers.

Now, points can be purchased through a resale agent for $85 per point, but then you have to pay additional closing costs. So, again in the interest of simplicity, I decided not to included those extra DVC costs. So, all in all, I think I was being fair on both sides. I wanted to show a "best case" scenario for the average DVC purchaser. However, if you desire to add in the additional closing costs, go ahead.

Again, I think you're being disingenuous. ALL terms are negotiable in a resale. I've seen listings on reputable resale websites for $79 per point. Add in closing costs (assuming the buyer agrees to pay them) and you're still a couple dollars UNDER $85 per point.

Also, I flat lined the membership dues (i.e. maintenance fees, taxes, etc.) so, again to be more than fair, I low balled that cost.

You used $3.80 per point...actual dues (all-inclusive) are $3.83 per point. So you the rounding represented about a $4 total annual swing.

I have determined that for my family and I, the DVC is great....as long as we rent points from a member. If we bought into the DVC, it would be a big financial mistake because we have always been able to get good accommodations at WDW for far less money.

Based upon the current-day rental market and discounting programs, that may be true. But, IMO, the savings are negligible and future prices under your method are totally unknown. The point behind DVC is to lock-in economical vacations for years to come at a known rate.

You're taking a risk. Those of us who are members want the certainty.

Let me leave you with this thought. Did you ever wonder why you see so many DVC booths in the parks and the resorts?

Actually I used to wonder why there were so many stores selling mickey ears, autograph books and collectible pins. Then it dawned on me that it has something to do with guest demand for the product. My guess is the same holds true for DVC.

 

[DisneyPhD]

:kiss:
Actually, I anticipated that someone would use the "apples and oranges" example. :wave: That is why I also pointed out that I can still rent DVC points for less than a what a DVC member pays for them even if I pay the "going rate" of $10 per point. So, I can still stay in the exact same accommodations for less money and I am not locked into an expensive long term contract.

There are several other forums that specialize in trading and renting DVC points. The normal asking price is $10 per point, but I often see them offered for less. People bid on these points. As in any other auction, sellers seldom get their asking price. Time is not on the seller's side. As I have stated, I have rented DVC points on several previous stays and I have never paid $10 per point.

So then why are you trying to confuse people with the "apples and baked alaska" comparison. Our DVC points only cost us around $5 per point per year, I havn't seen anyone renting at those levels. socal has put a big hole in the "if I invest I can make more money" As you have shown Woody, DVC is not for everyone. If financing is the only way you can afford DVC then you should include that in the calculation. If you only go every few years and/or always stay in moderates or value resorts then it's not a good idea. We had the 12K available. We were both working at the time too. Now with Mrs. PhD at home, I'm glad we have the DVC paid for otherwise we wouldn't get to WDW as often. I still think you're a closet DVC wannabe Woody. :animwink:

 

[Woody13]

So then why are you trying to confuse people with the "apples and baked alaska" comparison. Our DVC points only cost us around $5 per point per year, I havn't seen anyone renting at those levels.

As for my original comparison, I think you'll agree that there is no direct comparison between a DVC property and the other resorts. I was simply making a comparison based upon the so called, "deluxe" category of resort rooms offered at WDW. I realize that the DVC offers rooms with full kitchens and other amenities not offered in other WDW deluxe resorts. To some people, the DVC amenities may indeed be very important. For our WDW trips, those DVC amenities are not important.

For some people the DVC is their home away from home. I don't go on holiday so that I can be at home. If I wanted a second residence in the Orlando, FL area, I'd buy one.

Let me address this in another way. As I stated earlier, we have visited WDW for over 25 years on a fairly regular basis. During that time we have stayed at onsite resorts, offsite resorts, Motel 6 and the KOA campground as well as a few other places. During that period our needs have changed. We no longer bring the children with us because we're empty nesters now so we don't need the space we once needed. Honestly, we don't spend much time at our resort.

We use the resort as a place to sleep and shower. We don't use the pool. We don't watch the TV, except perhaps The Weather Channel. We seldom eat in the resort restaurants because we prefer to eat in the parks or DTD. In short, 90% of the time we spend at any WDW resort, we have the lights off and we are unconscious.

One of the things that has repeatedly brought us back to WDW is change. We like to experience the new attractions such as SGE and Soarin'. You can be sure we'll check out EE when it opens next year. Well, we have the same interests in the resorts. We enjoy staying at different resorts during each of our visits. Sometimes we enjoy WL or AKL and other times we'll do All-Stars or PC or do a moderate or one of the Hotel Plaza resorts. We sometimes rent a DVC resort. That is part of the fun for us and it also saves us money because we can pick and choose among the best available deals.

I also enjoy the hunt! If you do a little research, there are some great deals on accommodations to be had. For example, during 2003, we stayed at the Hotel Plaza Courtyard by Marriot for a week at a cost of $20.03 per night! We had a great time on that trip and we saved a lot of money. Then there was 2004. We planned 3 different trips to WDW that year but we were never able to follow through. Stuff happens. We had a family emergency, a family member that got seriously ill and then hurricane Ivan came to visit us. Not a good year but we just cancelled our reservations without penalty and moved on.

Also, I know this is blasphemy, but some years we didn't go to WDW because we had better things to do! 30 or 40 years is a long time. Things change. I suppose that the DVC is really a lifestyle issue. The question, "Is DVC a good deal" doesn't really need to be asked. The question rather should be, "Is DVC right for me and my family" based upon lifestyle and financial level.

What happens if you get ripped-off by a member? What happens if you have to cancel a trip (smart renters don't allow cancellations)?

For us, the DVC is fun to rent but not to buy. Also I appreciate your comments about the risk involved in renting from a DVC member. Yes, it does take a lot of trust on the part of both parties. I recognize those risks and yes cancellations can indeed impose a major problem. Those issues and others do tend to steer us away from DVC rentals. However, we look upon the DVC as just one of many rental options at our disposal. I have often found that guests at WDW resorts end up paying too much for their accommodations simply because they restricted their options.

socal has put a big hole in the "if I invest I can make more money"

Obviously, if you deplete your principle at a higher rate than you're earning in interest, you'll go broke. I'll keep that in mind. :wave:

 

[RealHawker]

Wow that's a crazy thing to imagine - that you could buy a nice house in Florida for the same cost of a time share. I guess the difference would be a house would require property taxes, electric bills, water bills, maintences, mowing the lawn, etc. But it's still interesting.

The only thing I can't possibly believe is accurate is the inflation. I just can't imagine that 50 years from now the annual dues for 150 points would be over $23,000 per year. That's just outrageous. So that increase might be a little much. I actually didn't even know that the annual dues were increased every year. I thought I had researched the heck out of it but I never came across that factoid. Maybe I don't want to buy into this afterall.

in 50 years the avg salary will have increased along with the annual dues. You wont feel it as much. Think about how much people made a year 50 years ago. I know my grandfather made about $1 an hour.

 

[Woody13]

in 50 years the avg salary will have increased along with the annual dues. You wont feel it as much. Think about how much people made a year 50 years ago. I know my grandfather made about $1 an hour.

That's an excellent point. Wages always run ahead of inflation.

What cost $1.00 in 1955 would cost $6.87 in 2005.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2005 and 1955,
they would cost you $1.00 and $0.15 respectively.