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Do FastPasses create longer waits or do they not have any affect at all?
- Thread starter G00fyDad
- Start date
Parker in NYC
Well-Known Member
If there’s a topic more divisive than COVID era restrictions, it’s this one. Or Gif vs Jif. Yeah, maybe even more divisive than that.
zapple
Well-Known Member
Right up there with: “Does the dining plan save you any money?”
CastAStone
5th gate? Just build a new resort Bob.
Neither. The standby waits are longer and the average guest waits less time. They change patterns and guest behavior.
Easy answer there: No.
Though I'd argue most people don't think it saves them money, they just like the "convenience," which is awfully silly if you ask me.
kap91
Well-Known Member
A ride can only handle so many guests per hour. Assuming the ride has a line, that means more guests want to ride it than the rides hourly capacity can handle. Therefore if certain guests can skip ahead to the front of the line, everyone in the regular line must wait longer.
BUT it does depend on implementation. Theoretically a fast pass might just be a way to hold your place in line without actually waiting in it. In this case the line wouldn't really be any longer in duration than it normally would be, it would just be physically shorter and move slower. And then you might go grab a snack or something.
But you might also get in line for another ride. And if this ride also doesn't have any extra capacity, well now you HAVE made THAT line longer than it otherwise would be, because you're in two lines at once. This is one of the key problems with fast pass - it only really can conceivably work if there's excess capacity in a park and people are directed to the rides that don't fulfil their THRC. But in modern times no park really ever has any excess capacity. Every ride has a line.
And then there's the changed social dynamics that fastpass causes. In a standby only scenario you're only going to enter a queue if you're willing to tolerate the wait. And so the queue has a self selecting maximum length because people actually have to stand in it and at some point they'll go elsewhere. But there's no cost to obtaining a fastpass so literally everyone will grab one.
Some of these effects are mitigated by the proportion of fastpass you allow vs standby. The more fastpasses you give out the slower the standby lines are going to move, because the more people are in the "virtual" queue. The "real" queue is miles long but only takes up the space of a few switchbacks. The more fastpasses you give out too, the more people can stand in two lines at once...inflating already slow moving lines.
so yeah the idea only really works if the quantity of passes are low and the park has excess capacity. Otherwise, you inflate wait times. The only way to really get around that is to turn fastpass into a true virtual queue system but that comes with its own headaches...making the park itself more crowded and still having no self-regulating length feature.
BUT it does depend on implementation. Theoretically a fast pass might just be a way to hold your place in line without actually waiting in it. In this case the line wouldn't really be any longer in duration than it normally would be, it would just be physically shorter and move slower. And then you might go grab a snack or something.
But you might also get in line for another ride. And if this ride also doesn't have any extra capacity, well now you HAVE made THAT line longer than it otherwise would be, because you're in two lines at once. This is one of the key problems with fast pass - it only really can conceivably work if there's excess capacity in a park and people are directed to the rides that don't fulfil their THRC. But in modern times no park really ever has any excess capacity. Every ride has a line.
And then there's the changed social dynamics that fastpass causes. In a standby only scenario you're only going to enter a queue if you're willing to tolerate the wait. And so the queue has a self selecting maximum length because people actually have to stand in it and at some point they'll go elsewhere. But there's no cost to obtaining a fastpass so literally everyone will grab one.
Some of these effects are mitigated by the proportion of fastpass you allow vs standby. The more fastpasses you give out the slower the standby lines are going to move, because the more people are in the "virtual" queue. The "real" queue is miles long but only takes up the space of a few switchbacks. The more fastpasses you give out too, the more people can stand in two lines at once...inflating already slow moving lines.
so yeah the idea only really works if the quantity of passes are low and the park has excess capacity. Otherwise, you inflate wait times. The only way to really get around that is to turn fastpass into a true virtual queue system but that comes with its own headaches...making the park itself more crowded and still having no self-regulating length feature.
kap91
Well-Known Member
It's actually worth mentioning that fastpasses COULD theoretically lower wait times again IF there were extra capacity. Say at 9am there's a mad rush to an attraction but you know at 4pm there's a lull cause everyone goes to watch a show. You could give out fastpasses at 9am with a 4pm return time. Less guests wait in line at 9 shortening the line, and there's extra capacity at 4pm so that line doesn't get any longer.
But again that requires that circumstance to exist, which it doesn't at Disney and Universal anymore. It might work really well at a smaller regional park though.
But again that requires that circumstance to exist, which it doesn't at Disney and Universal anymore. It might work really well at a smaller regional park though.
DisneyHead123
Well-Known Member
As others have noted, it depends on whether you have one or not. If you have a FP, they make lines much shorter. If you don't, longer.
I think the real question is whether people would rather have a very few (often only 1 per day) limited chances at a much shorter line, or, have an overall shorter standby line (still much longer than a FP line, but relatively shorter) for every guest at all times throughout the day.
For me now, I would want the "one and done" opportunity for a very short line - because I travel with hyperkinetic Littles and we just can't do a long standby line without some Level 5 meltdowns, and also the adult's nerves would be so frayed at the end of an hour line from making sure the Wildkins didn't poke, lick, scream at, or otherwise bother everyone else in line that the ride wouldn't be enjoyable after we made it through. For people traveling without kids who wanted to wander, happen upon great food and drink, be spontaneous, and jump on a ride when the moment was right - and maybe ride it a few times that day - though? Totally understand that they might want shorter overall lines.
I think the real question is whether people would rather have a very few (often only 1 per day) limited chances at a much shorter line, or, have an overall shorter standby line (still much longer than a FP line, but relatively shorter) for every guest at all times throughout the day.
For me now, I would want the "one and done" opportunity for a very short line - because I travel with hyperkinetic Littles and we just can't do a long standby line without some Level 5 meltdowns, and also the adult's nerves would be so frayed at the end of an hour line from making sure the Wildkins didn't poke, lick, scream at, or otherwise bother everyone else in line that the ride wouldn't be enjoyable after we made it through. For people traveling without kids who wanted to wander, happen upon great food and drink, be spontaneous, and jump on a ride when the moment was right - and maybe ride it a few times that day - though? Totally understand that they might want shorter overall lines.
JusticeDisney
Well-Known Member
There really is no debate to the original question posed in this thread. FP makes standby wait times at every single attraction longer. Period. The trade off, of course, is that FP makes the wait time significantly shorter for the rides that you actually have a FP for. It really is that simple.
Now, whether you prefer the FP system or do not is another question altogether, but the question that was actually asked here has only one answer.
Now, whether you prefer the FP system or do not is another question altogether, but the question that was actually asked here has only one answer.
onelove8187
Member
Copied from other thread: This is quite possibly the most fascinating debate I have watched unfold in a WDW forum. I for one, am an avid FP+ user and can agree with others who have stated that it has afforded me the ability to ride every ride I want, every trip, without ever waiting more than 20 minutes for anything (I did wait an hour for BTM once but it was my first trip and I didnt know any better yet). This being said, I understand that my experience is not typical and even though anyone could do it, the majority of people don't because they either do not know that this is possible or are not interested in the research/planning that is involved. That is ok, they are allowed to want their Disney World experience to be the way that they want to enjoy it. The question of whether FP+ increases standby wait times (i believe) is irrelevant, the only pertinent question should be either overall wait time (including standby + FP rides) per day, or alternatively, the avg total number of rides experienced by a guest normalized by typical daily total wait time. The mathematics modeling is impossible, as far as I know, to have anything resembling a full picture, simply because there is not enough data available to the public. Way too many assumptions need to be made that render any answer easily manipulated to the desired outcome. However, there is much that can be accomplished with theory which I strongly believe is at the heart of why Disney developed the fastpass+ system as they have (but they also have the concrete data to back it up with full analysis). I believe that standby wait times do increase with fastpass+ but likely only marginally due to the effects discussed here already. It is 100% objective fact that the rate of standby persons let into the ride is drastically reduced in the presence of fastpass, I do not know the exact numbers but recall touringplans data suggesting somewhere in the range of 4-7 FP / 1 standby. On its face, this would seemingly increase the standby wait time 4-7x, it does not. It does not because the pool of standby persons is dramatically decreased... and more importantly, if participating in fastpass+, a number of the people in that standby line are essentially in two lines concurrently... the problem is we cannot say conclusively how much this difference is. I understand that Disney's goal was two-fold. Guest experience has shown that a golden number of attractions per day needs to be experienced in order to be satisfied, I believe it is somewhere in the realm of 7-8. Also, standby lines are the only place in the entire WDW bubble that a guest is not available to spend money. Theoretically, FP+ solves both of these. Similarly, the virtual queue system utilized by ROTR has been implemented explicitly for this reason. Personally, I do not like this system because I feel that a guest that pays what they pay, wanting to experience this, should have the option to wait as long as they are personally willing in order to ride it... which would mean I likely wouldn't ride it lol. In the current system, its left only to chance. But from disney's perspective, it frees people up so that they are not stuck in a queue for hours where they cannot spend more money. Personally, if they move to FP$ at the prices rumored (100-300 per guest per day)... I will be devastated but will absolutely continue going to my happy place; I just expect to modify my expectations and maybe take the opportunity to experience other parts of what makes disney special. I can see splurging here or there for some extra access maybe on one day but it depends... they may be pricing me out- if at 100 i might do a day but definitely not at 300... family of 4 here! I do not believe that with highly reduced FP+, or none at all, that we will see wait times comparable to what has been present in the parks lately with reduced capacity. I also cant imagine how Disney could pull this off... many weeks of the year we see wild standby wait times (certainly inflated due to FP+) but I cant imagine guest satisfaction of waiting extraordinarily long lines for everything because they lack instant access to anything. I believe it would be a disaster. I believe Disney wants to have a system that maximizes guest experience while optimizing flow through the park and time free to spend money elsewhere... I believe that FP+ is the best available option right now. Could it be better? Probably, and I hope that this is where Disney going with any FP+ return and/or genie implementation. WDW is different, it is not Universal, cedar point, or six flags. We have always payed for FP+, look at your ticket prices! I see close to zero chance they move to fully paid. I think traditional FP+ will be brought back as it was at least for time being but also wouldn't be surprised too much if they come back with a hybrid system. A hybrid system could allow most peoples experience to essentially not change at all... they did 3 FP before and still do 3 FP now... while the super users (like me) will not have the same experience, well get 3 like everyone else and the rest of the fastpasses we typically blow through will be replaced with paying guests...
Weather_Lady
Well-Known Member
The question doesn't give enough information to give an informed answer. Increase wait times where? At the attractions for which you have them, or across the board?
Fastpass doesn't change ride capacity, so at the end of the day, if we assume that every guest spent the same hours in the parks, rode every attraction once, and used Fastpass with the same level of aptitude, their total wait times would still be the same -- Fastpass would just mean less time in line for some rides and more for others.
Of course, people don't all behave that way, so instead, everyone's mileage varies. Some people (those who don't understand the best way to use Fastpass, arrive late, don't tour wisely, etc.) will wait longer where Fastpass exists. Others (those who make wise and frequent use of Fastpass and have a good sense of what attractions to prioritize) will wait a shorter period of time. I would argue that for the average guest who wants to to visit most attractions and has a passable understanding of how to tour the parks, it all works out about the same with or without Fastpass.
Fastpass doesn't change ride capacity, so at the end of the day, if we assume that every guest spent the same hours in the parks, rode every attraction once, and used Fastpass with the same level of aptitude, their total wait times would still be the same -- Fastpass would just mean less time in line for some rides and more for others.
Of course, people don't all behave that way, so instead, everyone's mileage varies. Some people (those who don't understand the best way to use Fastpass, arrive late, don't tour wisely, etc.) will wait longer where Fastpass exists. Others (those who make wise and frequent use of Fastpass and have a good sense of what attractions to prioritize) will wait a shorter period of time. I would argue that for the average guest who wants to to visit most attractions and has a passable understanding of how to tour the parks, it all works out about the same with or without Fastpass.
You are basing all of your comments off of an assumption you have made. The verifiable fact of the data provided by others is that it does not make your wait longer to any significant amount. You assume it does for a variety of things such as how irritated you get because you are standing in a line and people keep passing you, you took the numbers above your head as you got in line as a gospel 30 minute wait and now you have been waiting 40 minutes so it must be the FP+ people, etc. The same thing that makes people think time flies when they are having fun and drag on when they are bored is the same thing that makes you think the standby lines are longer with FP+
onelove8187
Member
Take a hypothetical. only one ride exists, and you can only use fastpass... i.e. virtual queue. Wait times are not long because you do your waiting "virtually" with scheduled return times. In your scenario,
"if we assume that every guest spent the same hours in the parks, rode every attraction once, and used Fastpass with the same level of aptitude, their total wait times would still be the same -- Fastpass would just mean less time in line for some rides and more for others."
I would argue that yes the total wait time would be the same, but much of that "waiting" would be done virtually while enjoying mainstreet USA, cavalcades, shops, dining, exploring, etc. That is the point of fastpass+.
onelove8187
Member
I do not believe the data that exists is nearly enough to draw this conclusion. Although I agree it likely doesnt make a huge difference, and more importantly you absolutely will wait less overall (less time in lines over course of whole day), We lack the data to conclude that a standby line is objectively shorter or longer in the presence of FP+ vs. without considering all other conditions held constant.
Weather_Lady
Well-Known Member
Yes... but in the non-hypothetical world, there is more than one ride. If I'm in a FP+ queue waiting virtually, while I'm waiting for my entry window to open I'm going to spend that time in the standby queue at another attraction, not in a restaurant or store. I realize that getting people to buy more things was the "point" of FP+, but I don't think it was working the way Disney intended -- or at least, not on the scale Disney intended, which is why it was abandoned at the first available opportunity and is [according to the rumors] set to be reintroduced only as a way to pay to do more attractions with reasonable waits. Disney now recognizes that FP+ wasn't driving most people into stores or restaurants -- they were just using it to ride more rides in the same amount of time, which Disney, in its short-sighted focus on guest spending in the moment rather than guest satisfaction over the long-term, saw as a negative.
onelove8187
Member
You will spend time waiting virtually while waiting in line for another attraction as well = less overall time waiting for 2 attractions when using FP+ so good for you and me! I dont know how disney internally sees the success of this - they have the metrics and we do not. I do know that Bob Chapek spoke about the success of getting guests out of lines and having more opportunity to spend money as recently as a couple weeks ago at Credit Suisse 23rd Annual Communications Conference.
JusticeDisney
Well-Known Member
Ummmmmm, nope. A standby line moves faster without FP interruptions than it does with them. It’s that simple.
No it is not. See? Neither of us are going to convince the other one. This is why I created this thread. To give people that want to argue non-stop about wait times without a resolution and to keep this arguing out of the FP+ returning threads.
