Disney buses to go green

[papercut]

Biodiesel

I'm running biodiesel in my TDI new beetle and love it. The car runs better and it's much cleaner. Most biodiesel in the U.S. is made from soy and can cause food prices to be higher, but most food price increase is brought on by the increase in the cost of transporting it. Also, buying biodiesel and ethanol now encourages wider adoption and other sources besides soy and corn to be used. They're working on making biodiesel from algae right now, but if the soy biodiesel doesn't sell now it's not very likely the algae biodiesel will ever make it. I agree that ethanol and biodiesel in their current states aren't the answer, but neither are hybrids. Hybrids only delay the eventual end to oil, whereas ethanol and biodiesel are renewable. Plus my TDI gets better mileage than a Prius.

 

[urbanvegan]

This is one bus driver rumour that I hope has some truth to it.

 

[djpoore94]

I'm curious as to what other options you mention... What other options are there? I'm just curious to hear what the industry is pushing.

Hybrid, BioDiesel, Solar, Full Electric, Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Propane. It's not so much that the industry is pushing these options. I work for a trade association and we spend a lot of time and money helping fleet managers convert their fleets to more effecient options. We also have a session where people who attend our convention can drive these new vehicles on a test course, and yes we have tested FULL size busses that are hybrids.

I'm not a "tree hugger" and I agree that ethanol doesn't make much sense when you loose 35% of your gas milage on average, it would have to be at least $1.30 cheaper than regular fuel and I have not seen it that much cheaper. I also agree that it is not so much the cost of using the corn and soy that is driving the food prices higher, it is the cost of transporting the food to market.

 

[rcpocetti]

the driver also metioned that they are thinkin of using biodiesel

 

[Spyne]

Rumors from the bus drivers always need to be taken with a pound of salt. :lol: But still; I wouldn't be surprised if Disney does indeed go green with the buses.

 

[DisneyCane]

Also, buying biodiesel and ethanol now encourages wider adoption and other sources besides soy and corn to be used. They're working on making biodiesel from algae right now, but if the soy biodiesel doesn't sell now it's not very likely the algae biodiesel will ever make it. I agree that ethanol and biodiesel in their current states aren't the answer, but neither are hybrids. Hybrids only delay the eventual end to oil, whereas ethanol and biodiesel are renewable. Plus my TDI gets better mileage than a Prius.

This doesn't make any sense. What drives development of potentially viable alternative fuels is the price of petroleum based fuels. It doesn't matter if people buy the non-viable (and quite possibly energy negative) soy and corn based fuels now. As long as the price of petroleum based fuels is higher than the price that would have to be charged for a viable alternative fuel to make a profit, development will continue. All using corn or soy based fuel does is raise food prices and it doesn't even help the environment or reduce so-called greenhouse gasses.

Hybrids are the answer RIGHT NOW. Yes, they don't end oil consumption but they reduce it significantly for a vehicle doing the same job. If your TDI was a diesel hybrid then it would get even better milage than it does now. The downside of hybrids is the weight and volume of the batteries. As battery technology improves it will allow for plug-in hybrids that will be able to use electric only power at higher speeds and for longer distances. Of course, the electricity must be produced somehow but there are at least viable alternatives like nuclear (and to an extent, wind, thermal-solar in the deserts, ocean current, etc.) to produce it.

As for solar at WDW, florida gets too much cloud cover for it to be worth it economically. It would reduce the electric consumption but not by enough to pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time. Plus, even with all the flat top buildings, the panels need to be angled towards the sun and would be visible from guest areas ruining the theme. When the technology develops for much more efficient (or much cheaper at current efficiency) solar panels, then it might make economic sense.

 

[MousDad]

Interesting article in CNN today about a compressed air hybrid car:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/08/08/air.car/index.html

 

[WildLodgeFan]

you know what i never thought of the positives that would come out of solar power at disney. i'm truly surprised they haven't used this One. for free energy and Two. to show earth conscienceness and forward thinking. especially with epcot being a park with us thinking of the future. i think the solar panels could be hid as well and i like the solar tree idea...neato!

How about solar panels on Spaceship Earth?

 

[Master Yoda]

Bottom line Disney will do what ever brings them the best return on investment. I'll wager that Disney has a team of people looking at every conceivable option and whichever option saves them the most money will be the way they go regardless if it is a green or black option.

 

[bugsbunny]

A gasoline engine is less efficient than a diesel by at least half. Ethanol is about 80% efficient of gasoline simply because measure to measure, it doesn't contain nearly as many BTUs. Therefore, you need to burn even more of it to produce the same amount of energy as gasoline.

The reason ethanol is used is because it is a renewable resource. Grow some corn, cook it down like you are making whiskey, add a chemical to make it unfit for human consumption (otherwise you would read about people stealing 190 proof alcohol constantly), and then add it to gasoline to increase the octane rating and also to "thin" it out under the false assumption that is cost effective. Take an SUV that normally gets 15 miles per galllon of gasoline and switch it over to a 85% ethanol mix. You will be lucky to get 12 miles per gallon and probably pay the same price per gallon! So in the end, you spend MORE money to run on ethanol!

The other problem with ethanol is that is very damaging to rubber and some other syntethic materials. Get that into hoses in your car, add some engine heat, and your gas lines start springing holes all over. Also, ethanol is NOT easily transported or stored. You can't ship it in the same pipelines as other petroleum fluids and therefore, the current infrastructure is not setup to move large quantities (in most places) other than by truck or rail.

Another huge problem is that ethanol will readily absorb moisture about 1000 times more readily than gasoline. When it is stored improperly or transported improperly, it starts s__________g up moisture like a wick. Ask anybody that has a boat what happened when they started changing over to ethanol and adding it as an octane booster instead of MTBE. Many many many boats would go out on the water, stall, and have to get towed in. Why? Because they let their boats sit with tanks of ethanol. They abosrbed moisture in all the wrong places and now it cannot run properly. I had to take the outboard on my duck boat and turn up the mixture screw anothe 2 full turns once I switched over just to be able to get it to idle correctly and run strong.

You will see ethanol in WDW buses just as soon as the ribbon cutting ceremony takes place for the 5th gate. :ROFLOL:

 

[papercut]

Hybrids are the answer RIGHT NOW. Yes, they don't end oil consumption but they reduce it significantly for a vehicle doing the same job. If your TDI was a diesel hybrid then it would get even better milage than it does now. The downside of hybrids is the weight and volume of the batteries. As battery technology improves it will allow for plug-in hybrids that will be able to use electric only power at higher speeds and for longer distances. Of course, the electricity must be produced somehow but there are at least viable alternatives like nuclear (and to an extent, wind, thermal-solar in the deserts, ocean current, etc.) to produce it.

My TDI gets more than twice the mileage of a gas TDI Beetle without being a hybrid and the need for heavy batteries. So, my TDI reduces oil consumption significantly without heavy batteries. Hyrbrids are a good option, but I don't think they're the answer. Using biodiesel in my TDI consumes even less oil. Have you happened to see the area around a nickel hybrid battery factory? Tell me that's good for the envirnment.

One ironic thing about hybrids is that they are allowed to use HOV lanes in a lot of areas, but at highway speeds they get the ame mileage as any other gas car.

I think the best thing people can do is slow down, keep their car tuned and their tire pressure right regardless of what they're driving and what they're filling it up with. Not driving the biggest SUV possible all by yourself to and from work everyday wouldn't be a bad idea either.

 

[Rayray]

Hybrid, BioDiesel, Solar, Full Electric, Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Propane. It's not so much that the industry is pushing these options. I work for a trade association and we spend a lot of time and money helping fleet managers convert their fleets to more effecient options. We also have a session where people who attend our convention can drive these new vehicles on a test course, and yes we have tested FULL size busses that are hybrids.

I'm not a "tree hugger" and I agree that ethanol doesn't make much sense when you loose 35% of your gas milage on average, it would have to be at least $1.30 cheaper than regular fuel and I have not seen it that much cheaper. I also agree that it is not so much the cost of using the corn and soy that is driving the food prices higher, it is the cost of transporting the food to market.

Propane sounds interesting, haven't researched much about it. Hybrids are certainly a good option as well.

However, Hydrogen? That's a crock (the actual fuel-cell is extremely efficient technology, but getting that H2 is pretty difficult). And unfortunately, Solar is too (at the moment).

I have to say, the full electric option for a bus surprised me to say the least. I cannot imagine the weight of all the batteries. I wonder if the range of the bus is practical. Of course, this option probably isn't fully clean either, considering it requires powergrid electricity.

 

[Kamikaze]

I happen to work in the commercial transportation industry and there are several options besides ethanol for alternative fuels and hybrid busses that could reduce their costs in the long run. Our annual convention has had day long seminars about it for the past two years.

Someone in the transportation industry should no doubt spell buses correctly.

 

[papercut]

The problem with all electricity is how it's produced. Is not driving my gas car better for the environment if my electric car gets it's electricity from a coal burning power plant. What happens to electricity prices when everyone starts plugging in their cars... we might be reminiscing of the good ol' days of 35 mpg cars and $4 gasoline.

Here's an interesting article about everyone's favorite "green" car.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

 

[Rayray]

My TDI gets more than twice the mileage of a gas TDI Beetle without being a hybrid and the need for heavy batteries. So, my TDI reduces oil consumption significantly without heavy batteries. Hyrbrids are a good option, but I don't think they're the answer. Using biodiesel in my TDI consumes even less oil. Have you happened to see the area around a nickel hybrid battery factory? Tell me that's good for the envirnment.

One ironic thing about hybrids is that they are allowed to use HOV lanes in a lot of areas, but at highway speeds they get the ame mileage as any other gas car.

I think the best thing people can do is slow down, keep their car tuned and their tire pressure right regardless of what they're driving and what they're filling it up with. Not driving the biggest SUV possible all by yourself to and from work everyday wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Those hybrid batteries might be better on the enviroment if total emmisions eventually were cut by a significant amout.

TDI is working for VW, but the Toyota hybrids are really taking advantadge of the tech.

 

[Rayray]

The problem with all electricity is how it's produced. Is not driving my gas car better for the environment if my electric car gets it's electricity from a coal burning power plant. What happens to electricity prices when everyone starts plugging in their cars... we might be reminiscing of the good ol' days of 35 mpg cars and $4 gasoline.

Here's an interesting article about everyone's favorite "green" car.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

The author seems to avoid the same processes that take place for gasoline. Since the Hummers take roughly about 2 or 3 times as much gas, you've gotta double or triple the processing inefficiencies that take place for oil refining.

 

[DisneyCane]

My TDI gets more than twice the mileage of a gas TDI Beetle without being a hybrid and the need for heavy batteries.

One ironic thing about hybrids is that they are allowed to use HOV lanes in a lot of areas, but at highway speeds they get the ame mileage as any other gas car.

I think the best thing people can do is slow down, keep their car tuned and their tire pressure right regardless of what they're driving and what they're filling it up with. Not driving the biggest SUV possible all by yourself to and from work everyday wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Part of the improved mileage from diesel is the fact that diesel fuel has about 13% more energy per gallon than gasoline. Then, the diesel engine is more effecient at using that energy.

The reason for the HOV lane exemption is to encourage people to buy hybrids to get better overall mileage, not because they are getting better highway mileage (although, many hybrids get better highway mileage than the gas only equivalent because they have a smaller and more efficient gas engine since it doesn't need to deliver the same peak power as a non-hybrid). Personally, I think that the benefit shouldn't just be to "hybrids" but to any vehicle that has a combined mileage rating above 30 mpg or something like that.

 

[papercut]

It's too bad they can't figure out how to make lighter batteries. That would really help the hybrids' mileage.

In the mean time I think my best option is a TDI running biodiesel. Better mileage and much lower green house gases. It's also coming from a renewable source. The other good thing about biodiesel is that it'll work in almost every diesel vehicle on the road right now. No need to run out and drop 30k on a new hybrid.

 

[bugsbunny]

Diesels can run on just about any refined oil. In fact, when Diesel invented and patented the engine named after him, it was done so running on peanut oil.

Hydrogen probably is the answer, but its the containment system that is the issue. In theory, each "gas station" could literally be its own refinery since the only thing you need to produce hydrogen is water. Just keep passing water through a system and keep collecting the hydrogen to pump into cars.

Containing it securely and efficiently in a car is a bigger problem, believe it or not. Hydrogen isn't something you just readily compress without keeping it cool. When it heats up, it wants to expand quickly. In order to keep it cool enough that it stays nice and compressed and efficiently stored in a containter, you need a lot of insulation and technology. Otherwise, you get a car that has to refuel every 50 miles simply becuase you can't store enough of it onboard. Also, if you car catches on fire, do you want another Hindenburg right there?

Just like batteries, unless they can figure out to make the storage into something plastic or other lightweight based material, you quickly get a skewed savings over using gasoline.

Until a new battery technology can be done safely and efficiently, the current hybrids are probably about as good as its going to get. The next thing to do is put CVTs (continuous variable transmissions) and/or diesels into everything. The CVTs are just starting to come into their own and you will start seeing them in a lot of cars and trucks real soon. The evolution into 6 and 7 speed automatics just is way too many moving parts and although more fuel efficient, not very cost efficent.

I feel like I'm on Ellen's Adventure into Energy discussing all of this. Where's Bill Nye when you need him? :shrug:

 

[papercut]

An interesting thing about the use of biofuels and food prices is that corn is used a lot in the production of high fructose corn syrup. Products that contain HFCS are terrible for you anyway. Why are we concerned about their prices? you probably should be consuming less of them anyway. The uses of corn and soy is for animal feed. As a vegetarian, I wouldn't mind at all if the price of meat went up and more people chose to be vegetarians because of it. Meat production is a very ineffecient use for energy anyway.

Back on the subject of Disney's busses. It would be ideal for them to figure out a way to use a lot of the waste produced by the parks as an energy source.