Councilperson Dr. Jose Moreno proposes $1 gate tax for the DLR and other venues - Failed a second time, but still very much alive.

[Darkbeer1]

That makes no sense and there is no nextdoor policy outlined anywhere on the site. Instead it’s clear there’s different standards for people with different opinions.

>>“We actually don’t allow national politics discussion at all because we find that can so quickly go off the reservation where people aren’t being kind. We try to really embrace local politics,” Nextdoor CEO Sarah Friar told Yahoo Finance’s “The Ticker” in an exclusive interview.<<

Why neighborhood social network Nextdoor banned national politics

Nextdoor, a ZIP code-curated and vetted social network, does not allow discussions about U.S. politics — even during an election year. Here's why.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[el_super]

Also his work on Beach Boulevard, Knott's, Etc. translates to the Resort District, which Mr. Vanderpool will have to get back to creating revenues by finding ways to assist the Disneyland Resort.

The article didn't mention any of this. Maybe come back when he says or does something related to Disneyland?

 

[Curious Constance]

You've clicked on a thread that is obviously discussing local Anaheim politics, the title of the thread makes that plain to see.

I can completely understand not wanting politics to infiltrate every thread, but discussing the local politics in the area Disneyland resides in does have its place in relation to Disneyland in general and I can understand why some might want to take part in this discussion in the Disneyland forum section.

This forum is all but dead at this point with zero new Disneyland news to discuss and very few new posts every day, if a few people want to discuss Anaheim politics who cares? The thread is easy to ignore if that's not your thing.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

El Super is such a buzzkill.

 

[TP2000]

You've clicked on a thread that is obviously discussing local Anaheim politics, the title of the thread makes that plain to see.

I can completely understand not wanting politics to infiltrate every thread, but discussing the local politics in the area Disneyland resides in does have its place in relation to Disneyland in general and I can understand why some might want to take part in this discussion in the Disneyland forum section.

This forum is all but dead at this point with zero new Disneyland news to discuss and very few new posts every day, if a few people want to discuss Anaheim politics who cares? The thread is easy to ignore if that's not your thing.

Beautifully said, my dear lady.

In addition, any Disneyland gate tax will be paid by the customers, like you and me and anyone else posting in this thread, who buy a ticket to Disneyland. If there is a gate tax imposed on Disneyland, the customers will pay it, not the big evil "Disney Corporation" (as Dr. Moreno repeatedly insists on incorrectly calling it because it conjures up images of greedy, immoral businessmen in a fancy conference room counting their profits).

When I buy toothpaste at Target, I pay the 7.25% tax on that toothpaste to Sacramento, the big evil Target company doesn't pay that tax. Similarly, if I were to buy toothpaste at a Target in Oregon where there is no sales tax; I pay no tax, I merely pay Target for the toothpaste and the happy banter from the Target Lady staffing the register.

TP2000 Fun Fact: I choose my Target check out lane not by the shortest line, but by the employee who looks like the best conversationalist, or perhaps just the craziest. On a good day I get the Target Lady that is both.

This thread involves local politics because some local politicians want to tax Disneyland customers and make them pay more to visit Disneyland. I'd rather not pay a gate tax on my Disneyland tickets.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

I say they dismantle Disneyland and relocate it to Texas.

 

[Curious Constance]

I say they dismantle Disneyland and relocate it to Texas.

Make it Oregon, and you have yourself a deal.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Make it Oregon, and you have yourself a deal.

God no!

 

[October82]

Beautifully said, my dear lady.

In addition, any Disneyland gate tax will be paid by the customers, like you and me and anyone else posting in this thread, who buy a ticket to Disneyland. If there is a gate tax imposed on Disneyland, the customers will pay it, not the big evil "Disney Corporation" (as Dr. Moreno repeatedly insists on incorrectly calling it because it conjures up images of greedy, immoral businessmen in a fancy conference room counting their profits).

When I buy toothpaste at Target, I pay the 7.25% tax on that toothpaste to Sacramento, the big evil Target company doesn't pay that tax. Similarly, if I were to buy toothpaste at a Target in Oregon where there is no sales tax; I pay no tax, I merely pay Target for the toothpaste and the happy banter from the Target Lady staffing the register.

TP2000 Fun Fact: I choose my Target check out lane not by the shortest line, but by the employee who looks like the best conversationalist, or perhaps just the craziest. On a good day I get the Target Lady that is both.

This thread involves local politics because some local politicians want to tax Disneyland customers and make them pay more to visit Disneyland. I'd rather not pay a gate tax on my Disneyland tickets.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it ignores that while consumers pay the total price of an item, the price itself is set by market conditions. Sometimes consumers end up paying higher prices, while other times businesses lose revenue. It is not as simple as saying "a gate tax will increase the ticket price".

 

[Disney Irish]

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it ignores that while consumers pay the total price of an item, the price itself is set by market conditions. Sometimes consumers end up paying higher prices, while other times businesses lose revenue. It is not as simple as saying "a gate tax will increase the ticket price".

Do you really think that Disney is going to absorb that tax out of the goodness of their hearts? God no, they will pass that tax onto guests. And if I were them I'd post it in big letters on their price board showing ticket prices, *NOT INCLUDING ANAHEIM GATE TAX.

 

[October82]

Do you really think that Disney is going to absorb that tax out of the goodness of their hearts?

God no, they will pass that tax onto guests. And if I were them I'd post it in big letters on their price board showing ticket prices, *NOT INCLUDING ANAHEIM GATE TAX.

No need to be patronizing. This is basic economics, not some crazy strange idea. If the price of a ticket + tax is above what the market is willing to pay, fewer people will pay it and Disney will lose revenue. If that price is below the price that people will pay, Disney can increase their revenues accordingly.

Of course Disney would prefer if they could raise their ticket price to the combined ticket + tax price. And they will do so just as they always have absent the tax. This is precisely why excise taxes do not always raise prices beyond what they otherwise would have been.

Believing the excise tax will increase prices substantially is equivalent to believing that Disney is pricing their tickets below what the market price is. I doubt that's the case.

 

[Disney Irish]

No need to be patronizing. This is basic economics, not some crazy strange idea. If the price of a ticket + tax is above what the market is willing to pay, fewer people will pay it and Disney will lose revenue. If that price is below the price that people will pay, Disney can increase their revenues accordingly.

Of course Disney would prefer if they could raise their ticket price to the combined ticket + tax price. And they will do so just as they always have absent the tax. This is precisely why excise taxes do not always raise prices beyond what they otherwise would have been.

Believing the excise tax will increase prices substantially is equivalent to believing that Disney is pricing their tickets below what the market price is. I doubt that's the case.

Except this isn't an economic class, so no need for a lecture. So I understand, and believe most here do also, that an tax doesn't always equal to a direct price increase on the item that is being taxed. However real world practice is completely different than lectures. So I would say that its less likely for a corporation such as Disney to just absorb a tax being levied on them without having the cost be recouped by the customer in someway. So while there might not be a direct ticket price increase you can expect an increase somewhere else to offset that cost. So no matter what the guests will be paying for this gate tax, not Disney.

 

[Curious Constance]

No need to be patronizing. This is basic economics, not some crazy strange idea. If the price of a ticket + tax is above what the market is willing to pay, fewer people will pay it and Disney will lose revenue. If that price is below the price that people will pay, Disney can increase their revenues accordingly.

Of course Disney would prefer if they could raise their ticket price to the combined ticket + tax price. And they will do so just as they always have absent the tax. This is precisely why excise taxes do not always raise prices beyond what they otherwise would have been.

Believing the excise tax will increase prices substantially is equivalent to believing that Disney is pricing their tickets below what the market price is. I doubt that's the case.

It’s $1 per ticket though, so I doubt that will be a breaking point for many people. Disney hasn’t seemed to find what the market is willing to pay as they raise tickets prices yearly by many dollars and people still pay it in droves (at least until all Hell broke loose this year).

 

[October82]

Except this isn't an economic class, so no need for a lecture. So I understand, and believe most here do also, that an tax doesn't always equal to a direct price increase on the item that is being taxed. However real world practice is completely different than lectures. So I would say that its less likely for a corporation such as Disney to just absorb a tax being levied on them without having the customer recoup that cost in someway. So while there might not be a direct ticket price increase you can expect an increase somewhere else to offset that cost. So no matter what the guests will be paying for this gate tax, not Disney.

What's taught in economics classes matters and bears repeating. Theory/lectures/whatever doesn't mean something disconnected from practice, it means our best understanding of how real firms and real markets behave.

We should be clear that no one is saying that Disney will absorb the price increase by choice. What is being said is that Disney does not have the ability to set the price arbitrarily. From a market perspective, a ticket tax is the same as any other increase in operating expenses. If the market will sustain an increase to cover the cost of that increase, the price will be larger and revenues will do the same. If not, Disney will lose revenue.

There are certainly interesting policy questions to discuss, but the simplistic way this discussion has happened in this thread so far has really only focused on one side of a more nuanced debate. That makes sense since many members on this forum are active in Anaheim politics, but we should probably be having a more balanced conversation about this.

It’s $1 per ticket though, so I doubt that will be a breaking point for many people. Disney hasn’t seemed to find what the market is willing to pay as they raise tickets prices yearly by many dollars and people still pay it in droves (at least until all Hell broke loose this year).

It doesn't have to be the breaking point for many people, it only has to be part of how people make decisions about whether to go to Disneyland, Universal Studios, Six Flags or go spend a day at the beach. If Disney really is pricing tickets below the market price as you suggest, they should raise their prices until they reach the market price. In that case, again, the ticket tax isn't coming out of consumer's pockets any more than it otherwise would have been. It's just $1 that goes to Anaheim instead of Burbank.

 

[Disney Irish]

What's taught in economics classes matters and bears repeating. Theory/lectures/whatever doesn't mean something disconnected from practice, it means our best understanding of how real firms and real markets behave.

We should be clear that no one is saying that Disney will absorb the price increase by choice. What is being said is that Disney does not have the ability to set the price arbitrarily. From a market perspective, a ticket tax is the same as any other increase in operating expenses. If the market will sustain an increase to cover the cost of that increase, the price will be larger and revenues will do the same. If not, Disney will lose revenue.

There are certainly interesting policy questions to discuss, but the simplistic way this discussion has happened in this thread so far has really only focused on one side of a more nuanced debate. That makes sense since many members on this forum are active in Anaheim politics, but we should probably be having a more balanced conversation about this.

And we know that Disney will not lose any revenue by choice, because Wall Street won't allow it. So not sure why this is even a discussion. This gate tax will be passed onto guests in some form, whether that be higher prices on tickets, food, merch, or what have you. This is not even a question, it will happen.

Also just let it be know I have no issue imposing more corporate taxes on a corporation like Disney. But to say it will only impact prices based on what the market will bear is being naive. Corporation will always find a way to pass those costs onto the consumer, either directly or indirectly. Because whats taught in Business 101 matters.

 

[October82]

And we know that Disney will not lose any revenue by choice, because Wall Street won't allow it. So not sure why this is even a discussion. This gate tax will be passed onto guests in some form, whether that be higher prices on tickets, food, merch, or what have you. This is not even a question, it will happen.

These aren't reasons for believing that the price would be passed on, they're assertions that they will. The reality is that that there are good reasons for believing that under the current market conditions, it is unlikely that prices would be higher in real terms than they otherwise would be. Wall Street, for all of its power, can't will supply and demand away.

Also just let it be know I have no issue imposing more corporate taxes on a corporation like Disney. But to say it will only impact prices based on what the market will bear is being naive. Corporation will always find a way to pass those costs onto the consumer, either directly or indirectly. Because whats taught in Business 101 matters.

Yes, what's taught in business 101 matters. As does what is taught in BUS/ECON 201, 301 and 401. Including the fact that real firms can't set prices by fiat. Since it needs to be said again - there's no need to be patronizing here. We're talking about an issue that we can understand straightforwardly in terms of supply and demand. We can talk about how firms respond to changes in market conditions, increases in operating expenses, and other changes in revenue. But we need to move beyond this idea that there's no rational reason why Anaheim would want to impose a gate tax and that doing so would only raise prices that we all pay. That's just not the reality.

In reality, a gate tax will take money from Disney's pocket and put it in the city's coffers. Is this a wise policy? That seems like a complicated question given the more complex long term impacts. But it isn't a straightforward matter of higher taxes = higher prices.

 

[Disney Irish]

These aren't reasons for believing that the price would be passed on, they're assertions that they will. The reality is that that there are good reasons for believing that under the current market conditions, it is unlikely that prices would be higher in real terms than they otherwise would be.



Yes, what's taught in business 101 matters. Including the fact that real firms can't set prices by fiat. Since it needs to be said again - there's no need to be patronizing here. We're talking about an issue that we can understand straightforwardly in terms of supply and demand. We can talk about how firms respond to changes in market conditions, increases in operating expenses, and other changes in revenue. But we need to move beyond this idea that there's no rational reason why Anaheim would want to impose a gate tax and that doing so would only raise prices that we all pay. That's just not the reality.

So you don't see any conceivable way Disney, even in current economic climate, would pass the cost onto guests, even indirectly?

Let me give you an example, if a gate tax is imposed and ticket prices remained the same. But the cost of a sweatshirt went up by 50 cents, and the price of a coke went up 25 cent, and the prices of a churro went up 25 cents. You're telling me that doesn't equate to the guests paying for that new $1 gate tax indirectly? I mean these are small increases that the market will bear. So why wouldn't that be considered Disney passing on the cost of that gate tax?

 

[Darkbeer1]

We have no idea what amount will be proposed on a ballot measure.

We know it will be an entertainment tax, since you can't target a business, you have to tax a class of businesses.

So movie theaters, concerts, plays, sports of all levels and theme/amusement offerings.

Will it be a percentage of the amount charged, or a flat amount like $2, or something else?

Until the petition is filed with the city clerk, we won't know.

And the scoop is that the folks proposing it are having problems deciding.

 

[October82]

So you don't see any conceivable way Disney, even in current economic climate, would pass the cost onto guests, even indirectly?

Let me give you an example, if a gate tax is imposed and ticket prices remained the same. But the cost of a sweatshirt went up by 50 cents, and the price of a coke went up 25 cent, and the prices of a churro went up 25 cents. You're telling me that doesn't equate to the guests paying for that new $1 gate tax indirectly? I mean these are small increases that the market will bear. So why wouldn't that be considered Disney passing on the cost of that gate tax?

Because just like there is a market for Disneyland tickets, there are markets for churros and Coca-Cola, and the price in those markets are set by the amount that guests are willing to spend on those items as well. There are caveats here, among them that Disney essentially has a monopoly position on goods sold to guests in the parks. But just as before, to believe that Disney will offset a gate tax with sales of bottles of coke or churros is suggesting that Disney isn't optimally pricing those items to begin with. While inefficiencies definitely exist, I find it hard to believe that a Disneyland churro isn't already pretty near priced at or above market price.

 

[Disney Irish]

Because just like there is a market for Disneyland tickets, there are markets for churros and Coca-Cola, and the price in those markets are set by the amount that guests are willing to spend on those items as well. There are caveats here, among them that Disney essentially has a monopoly position on goods sold to guests in the parks. But just as before, to believe that Disney will offset a gate tax with sales of bottles of coke or churros is suggesting that Disney isn't optimally pricing those items to begin with. While inefficiencies definitely exist, I find it hard to believe that a Disneyland churro isn't already pretty near priced at or above market price.

Those were just a couple examples of products where a price increase could occur. In reality it would likely be smaller increases across all products sold inside the park to offset any cost. And since in most cases it would a few cents that the guest wouldn't notice when purchasing those items. And specifically it would likely be increases to merch since those items typically don't have prices rounded to the quarter like food items.