Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Willmark

Well-Known Member
There are already states that don't allow religious exemptions.
Have they been challenged at the SC level? I’m thinking not?

Point being is laws get passed often that end up being in violation of the Constitution.

(Likely) in this case enforced vaccinations or no exemptions would run afoul of the 1st and quite likely the 4th and 5th (potentially ).
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
There’s a business reason for Pfizer to produce and encourage boosters that specifically target variants. The vaccines may work too well. The hope for the pharma industry was that billions of people would take covid vaccines at least annually. Billions of dollars at stake. The below article discusses a study that shows the vaccines may last for years and that’s bad news for sales. Remember that back in Jan Pfizer also developed boosters for both the South African variant and the Brazilian variant but they were never used.

 

James J

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
There’s a business reason for Pfizer to produce and encourage boosters that specifically target variants. The vaccines may work too well. The hope for the pharma industry was that billions of people would take covid vaccines at least annually. Billions of dollars at stake. The below article discusses a study that shows the vaccines may last for years and that’s bad news for sales. Remember that back in Jan Pfizer also developed boosters for both the South African variant and the Brazilian variant but they were never used.

That would be great news, although it would be nice to see a study with more participants:

Only 41 participants were included. And the lymph-node samples that were key to the team's findings about potential longevity for mRNA vaccines were collected from only 14 people.
 

Angel Ariel

Well-Known Member
I'm scared for NJ and NY this fall and winter, their surge will getting worse there as mask mandate will returning until April 2022....
Is NJ and NY will NOT go back mask mandate by fall?


I agree with @helenabear - there is no way to predict what mitigation measures will be, if any, in the fall/winter. Try to avoid articles speculating about it, and focus on the now if you can.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
For the "just a little longer" crowd, this article talks about COVID circulating around the world for another 2-3 years and requiring re-institution of "mitigation" throughout that time. 2-3 weeks is "just a little longer," 2-3 years is not.
I think some people have lost the context of this discussion on a global basis. I was just reading something about the Olympics and they were saying Japan has potentially started a new wave going into the start of the Olympics and that they are only around 20% of the country with at least 1 shot. Let me say that again….20%. Japan is not a third world country or economically challenged. I am disappointed that we didn’t get more people vaccinated in the US quicker and that more people aren’t eager or even willing to get vaccinated but I think some people are ignoring the fact that we are approaching 70% of adults and have over 55% of the total population vaccinated with at least 1 shot. There are many parts of the world much worse off so naturally those places will see larger waves and more impact going forward. So we have not reached herd immunity and cases will continue indefinitely until enough people get naturally immune but this isn’t a binary process of yes or no, there are levels. There is a massive difference between community spread with nobody or 20% of the population vaccinated and community spread with 55% of the population vaccinated.

As far as 2-3 years goes we will have all kids approved sometime this Fall when we will likely to already be above 60% of the total population vaccinated. Kids under 12 make up 15% of the population and it’s likely they are vaccinated around the same rate as their parents so we may add up to 10% more of the total population. My point is we should be north of 70% of the total population vaccinated by the end of 2021. The larger the outbreaks among the unvaccinated the quicker the other 30% get immune. Eventually we will hit 80-90% of the population immune and that is likely to be well before 2-3 years from now.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
I‘m suggesting vaccinated people still use common sense - we aren’t invicible just because we got a shot (or 2).
Nobody is "invincible" to anything. However, using the breakthrough case data on deaths and hospitalizations as well as the information from Orange County, FL regarding deaths, if you are fully vaccinated, you are protected from COVID-19 better than you are protected from hundreds of other things.

This isn't an opinion, it is a fact. If you use the breakthrough case data for the effectiveness of the vaccines and apply it to the peak of the pandemic with respect to community transmission, a fully vaccinated person is FAR less likely to die from COVID-19 than from any and all other causes in any twelve month period. The additional risk from COVID-19 is statistically irrelevant in comparison to the risk of dying exclusive of COVID-19.

Common sense is to get vaccinated. Once you are fully vaccinated, common sense is to live your life and not be concerned with COVID-19 unless and until a variant appears that renders the vaccines ineffective.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
I like to consider myself a near anarchist. I don’t like the idea of government really doing anything and don’t think they tend to do things well. I even have crazy beliefs like I think we should get rid of the direct election of senators. I am though also a proponent of the classical liberal idea that governments are instituted to protect the rights of the individual and I have found myself challenged by the pandemic because issues of communicable diseases lie at that intersection of life and liberty. I should be able to do whatever I want so long as it doesn’t hurt you.

I also generally don’t like “the ends justify the means.” I keep asking about polio because it is such a clear and extreme example. You’re not going to find many people straight up saying “We would be better off with polio. We would be more free if thousands of kids were paralyzed each year.” I don’t like removing personal choice but how much is actually lost by telling people they can’t decide to get polio or any of the other diseases that are prevented by required vaccines?
I am also firmly classically liberal (too bad neither major political party in the US really is anymore), although I tend to follow the strands of this philosophy that recognizes the important role of the government in maintaining, regulating and enforcing the use of the commons. Otherwise, if everybody is completely free, nobody is except those who manage to dominate the commons. Tying this in with Disney, the introduction to The Hall of Presidents once included a recitation of the preamble to the Constitution. Worth repeating:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Note that securing individual liberty is only one of the Constitution's goals, and the last one mentioned.

The pandemic is an example in which unfettered use of the commons has an extremely negative effect on everyone. Although I don't support criminal penalties to enforce vaccination on individuals, I do support both carrot and stick government action to reach the desired outcome. Even if the pandemic no longer affects us who are already vaccinated medically, it still carries heavy economic costs that affect everyone, due to all the disruptions in supply chains and the labor market.

The pandemic is one of those once-in-a-generation events that requires a firm, organized response from governments. It simply can't be managed on an individual basis.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
I like to consider myself a near anarchist. I don’t like the idea of government really doing anything and don’t think they tend to do things well. I even have crazy beliefs like I think we should get rid of the direct election of senators. I am though also a proponent of the classical liberal idea that governments are instituted to protect the rights of the individual and I have found myself challenged by the pandemic because issues of communicable diseases lie at that intersection of life and liberty. I should be able to do whatever I want so long as it doesn’t hurt you.

I also generally don’t like “the ends justify the means.” I keep asking about polio because it is such a clear and extreme example. You’re not going to find many people straight up saying “We would be better off with polio. We would be more free if thousands of kids were paralyzed each year.” I don’t like removing personal choice but how much is actually lost by telling people they can’t decide to get polio or any of the other diseases that are prevented by required vaccines?

... and this get's even muddier when kids are involved since they can't really make this decision for themselves.
 

Parker in NYC

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think some people have lost the context of this discussion on a global basis. I was just reading something about the Olympics and they were saying Japan has potentially started a new wave going into the start of the Olympics and that they are only around 20% of the country with at least 1 shot. Let me say that again….20%. Japan is not a third world country or economically challenged. I am disappointed that we didn’t get more people vaccinated in the US quicker and that more people aren’t eager or even willing to get vaccinated but I think some people are ignoring the fact that we are approaching 70% of adults and have over 55% of the total population vaccinated with at least 1 shot. There are many parts of the world much worse off so naturally those places will see larger waves and more impact going forward. So we have not reached herd immunity and cases will continue indefinitely until enough people get naturally immune but this isn’t a binary process of yes or no, there are levels. There is a massive difference between community spread with nobody or 20% of the population vaccinated and community spread with 55% of the population vaccinated.

As far as 2-3 years goes we will have all kids approved sometime this Fall when we will likely to already be above 60% of the total population vaccinated. Kids under 12 make up 15% of the population and it’s likely they are vaccinated around the same rate as their parents so we may add up to 10% more of the total population. My point is we should be north of 70% of the total population vaccinated by the end of 2021. The larger the outbreaks among the unvaccinated the quicker the other 30% get immune. Eventually we will hit 80-90% of the population immune and that is likely to be well before 2-3 years from now.
Thank you for this. I love that people think the US is an island unto itself. We depend on tourism. What's going on in the rest of the world is our business.
 

Parker in NYC

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Nobody is "invincible" to anything.
Episode 7 Reaction GIF by The Bachelor
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Thank you for this. I love that people think the US is an island unto itself. We depend on tourism. What's going on in the rest of the world is our business.
Speaking of that topic, the US Travel Association (which Disney is a member of) released a “blueprint“ for reopening borders safely. In summary they are calling for an easing of broad travel restriction by July 15 to be replaced with a country by country framework that looks at each countries vaccination level. They are also proposing an expedited entry process for fully vaccinated individuals from non-high risk countries. From a Disney prospective this would likely open the door sooner for the return of guests from the UK and Canada given their high vaccination levels. The last of the closed Disney hotels is scheduled to reopen in December now. I wonder if that’s partially due to an estimate that these restrictions will be lifted by then and if so will they accelerate the reopenings if the rules are changed sooner.

I am perfectly fine with opening International travel back up to fully vaccinated individuals from low risk countries. I think It’s too soon for full opening, but a good compromise is allowing fully vaccinated people in. Helps tourism and is pretty safe overall.

 

Parker in NYC

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Speaking of that topic, the US Travel Association (which Disney is a member of) released a “blueprint“ for reopening borders safely. In summary they are calling for an easing of broad travel restriction by July 15 to be replaced with a country by country framework that looks at each countries vaccination level. They are also proposing an expedited entry process for fully vaccinated individuals from non-high risk countries. From a Disney prospective this would likely open the door sooner for the return of guests from the UK and Canada given their high vaccination levels. The last of the closed Disney hotels is scheduled to reopen in December now. I wonder if that’s partially due to an estimate that these restrictions will be lifted by then and if so will they accelerate the reopenings if the rules are changed sooner.

I am perfectly fine with opening International travel back up to fully vaccinated individuals from low risk countries. I think It’s too soon for full opening, but a good compromise is allowing fully vaccinated people in. Helps tourism and is pretty safe overall.

Amazing that vaccinated individuals will be allowed in, but unvaccinated citizens here at home can merrily go about their business. Not talking constitutional anything here, just the grand comedy of irony.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Speaking of that topic, the US Travel Association (which Disney is a member of) released a “blueprint“ for reopening borders safely. In summary they are calling for an easing of broad travel restriction by July 15 to be replaced with a country by country framework that looks at each countries vaccination level. They are also proposing an expedited entry process for fully vaccinated individuals from non-high risk countries. From a Disney prospective this would likely open the door sooner for the return of guests from the UK and Canada given their high vaccination levels. The last of the closed Disney hotels is scheduled to reopen in December now. I wonder if that’s partially due to an estimate that these restrictions will be lifted by then and if so will they accelerate the reopenings if the rules are changed sooner.

I am perfectly fine with opening International travel back up to fully vaccinated individuals from low risk countries. I think It’s too soon for full opening, but a good compromise is allowing fully vaccinated people in. Helps tourism and is pretty safe overall.


Is there really any point in travel restrictions? From what we have seen, unless you are incredibly restrictive on international travel, virus variants are going to get in.
 

ctrlaltdel

Well-Known Member
Is there really any point in travel restrictions? From what we have seen, unless you are incredibly restrictive on international travel, virus variants are going to get in.
You can make the argument that it slows the development of variants. Certainly if I'm a country with a heavily vaccinated population, I would want to have only vaccinated folks coming into the country.

Here in Western New York we are impatiently waiting for the Canadian border to reopen but we have to give them time to continue to vaccinate.
 

DisneyFan32

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
I think some people have lost the context of this discussion on a global basis. I was just reading something about the Olympics and they were saying Japan has potentially started a new wave going into the start of the Olympics and that they are only around 20% of the country with at least 1 shot. Let me say that again….20%. Japan is not a third world country or economically challenged. I am disappointed that we didn’t get more people vaccinated in the US quicker and that more people aren’t eager or even willing to get vaccinated but I think some people are ignoring the fact that we are approaching 70% of adults and have over 55% of the total population vaccinated with at least 1 shot. There are many parts of the world much worse off so naturally those places will see larger waves and more impact going forward. So we have not reached herd immunity and cases will continue indefinitely until enough people get naturally immune but this isn’t a binary process of yes or no, there are levels. There is a massive difference between community spread with nobody or 20% of the population vaccinated and community spread with 55% of the population vaccinated.

As far as 2-3 years goes we will have all kids approved sometime this Fall when we will likely to already be above 60% of the total population vaccinated. Kids under 12 make up 15% of the population and it’s likely they are vaccinated around the same rate as their parents so we may add up to 10% more of the total population. My point is we should be north of 70% of the total population vaccinated by the end of 2021. The larger the outbreaks among the unvaccinated the quicker the other 30% get immune. Eventually we will hit 80-90% of the population immune and that is likely to be well before 2-3 years from now.
I have three questions @GoofGoof

1) Is NY and NJ will not go back mask mandates by fall/winter?

2) Is there will be unlikely that there will be major big spike/surge by fall/winter this year?

3) Is CDC will lift masks for public transportation by September when they will expire it?
 
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