Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Heppenheimer]

Nope. Never said fake. Saying that if you died of a stroke and had a Covid symptom it was allowed to be classified as a Covid death this allowing the facility to receive more money. Of course hospitals did this as they were losing money hand over fist.

People who get septic have all kinds of things go wrong... myocardial infarcts, congestive heart failure, strokes, kidney failure, disseminated intravascular coagulation, liver failure, pulmonary embolism, adult respiratory distress syndrome, etc. The proximate cause of death very well may be any of the previous, and a severe infection like COVID can be the significant contributing morbidity.

I trust the attending physician who fills out the death certificate to have far better insight into individual cases causes of death than conspiracy theorists on the internet.

I thought we beat this dead horse into a pulp back last spring.

 

[correcaminos]

Nope. Never said fake. Saying that if you died of a stroke and had a Covid symptom it was allowed to be classified as a Covid death this allowing the facility to receive more money. Of course hospitals did this as they were losing money hand over fist.

Again your own factual article said there is zero proof this happened.

Nope. Never said fake. Saying that if you died of a stroke and had a Covid symptom it was allowed to be classified as a Covid death this allowing the facility to receive more money. Of course hospitals did this as they were losing money hand over fist.

You realize covid is being researched as a link to strokes https://www.osfhealthcare.org/blog/can-covid-19-cause-a-stroke/

 

[havoc315]

Of course not. I’m not saying they are lying. I’m simply saying some deaths have been attributed to Covid only because the deceased had a Covid symptom. Which is all that is required based on the HEROS act.

That’s a pretty significant misrepresentation.
Deaths, especially hospital deaths, rarely have a singular death.

In fact, the cause of almost every death in a hospital is cardiac arrest —- the heart stop. But what caused the heart to stop? It’s common to see a multiple Causes and contributing factors to a death.

If someone who has Covid symptoms does in a nuclear attack — then Covid shouldn’t be considered the cause of death.

But when someone has Covid symptoms and... cancer, pneumonia, blot clots, afib, sepsis, etc, etc...
Then Covid is indeed correctly listed as a cause of death.

 

[havoc315]

Nope. Never said fake. Saying that if you died of a stroke and had a Covid symptom it was allowed to be classified as a Covid death this allowing the facility to receive more money. Of course hospitals did this as they were losing money hand over fist.

Perfect example. You do realize Covid causes strokes?

so yes... if someone with Covid symptoms dies from a stroke, the stroke was likely caused by Covid. Even if the stroke was entirely independent of Covid, Covid would make it much more difficult for the body to respond to the stroke, and thus be a cause of the death.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Updating the data from Florida's long term care facility residents and staff. At this point, all residents and staff who wished to be vaccinated should have received both doses.
View attachment 536420
From 1/18-2/28, the number of currently COVID-19 positive residents decreased 79.5% and the number of currently COVID-19 positive staff has decreased 77%. The seven day rolling average of daily reported cases in FL declined 55.4% in the same time period. Although the LTC data set looks at currently positive people, it should be roughly comparable to the daily case number. The fact that the number of COVID-19 positive LTC facility staff, who spend their non-working hours in the community, declined 40% more than the decrease in cases in the general population seems to show the effectiveness of the vaccines in preventing infections (not just symptoms).

I wish I had the data for the vaccine acceptance rate of LTC residents and staff as it would really help to be able to extrapolate to the general population once vaccines are more widely available.

Dude...ease off the self quotes

 

[GoofGoof]

You really think it is the same?

Two settings: lying buffoons or sunny side optimists?


Might be space for a few more approaches

No I absolutely don’t think it’s the same. I just want them to treat us like adults and continue to tell the truth. I don’t need them to slow play the targets in case something slips. I can handle a change to the plan or projections as things change. What I would prefer to avoid is a lot of confusion. The single biggest challenge the current administration faces is getting enough people to take the vaccines. That needs to be the focus.

 

[GoofGoof]

You are complaining about the shift in “government talk”— so shouldn’t we look at the earlier government talk?!

What I posted was a CDC meeting in late December — 7 weeks after the election was over, from apolitical CDC scientists. So Fauci and his colleagues believed in late December, that we would have 200 million doses by the end of February. They have fallen way behind that expectation.

The companies themselves said 220 million between Pfizer and Moderna by end of March. A target they are unlikely to hit.

Pfizer And Moderna Likely To Fall Short Of Vaccination Goal

Government officials said that while production was ramping up, vaccine suppliers probably couldn't provide 220 million doses by April.

www.ibtimes.com

What was said prior to inauguration by a different administration hell bent on remaining in power is completely irrelevant. CDC scientists and Biden officials are not Pfizer and Moderna. You specifically said Pfizer and Moderna fell way behind on their goals that they had in December and January. Not true at all. They have moved up the dates for deliveries which is well established and I know you know is a true statement. Last I’ll say on that.

To circle back to the original point of all of this, in the second from last week of February Fauci changed his story from a return to normal by Fall to a return to normal by 2022. You said he changed his story because the vaccine deployment fell several months behind. By the start of February we all already knew that Pfizer and Moderna would ship their first 200M doses each by end of May and the next 100M by the end of July and that hasn’t changed. Nobody from either company has said anything about the targets slipping. Both companies have reconfirmed their projections numerous times. It‘s far more likely that he changed his story because Biden was planning on doing a town hall that week where he stated that our goal is a return to normal for Christmas 2021. It would look pretty bad if POtUS is saying no return to normal until Christmas while his chief advisor is still saying Fall. So my concern is that Fauci changed his story for political reasons and not based on actual science or his actual opinion. That’s not what any of us should want.

 

[Patcheslee]

Doing a little math, 726,034 people under 65 have had at least one shot and 2,290,627 people 65 and over have had at least one shot. For all those people to complete the series, 6,033,322 doses will have been required. If everybody 65 and over elects to be vaccinated (some percentage won't), approximately 4.5 million more doses are required.

Assuming that people under 65 will continue to be vaccinated who meet the criteria, it looks like the State needs approximately 11 million doses delivered total to get through the first phase of vaccinations (assuming Pfizer and Moderna) and open up to more groups for eligibility. According to the CDC data, 6,313,555 doses have been delivered so 4.7 million more are needed.

I don't know what the weekly allocation is planned to be (@GoofGoof may be able to chime in) but that would allow a pretty good estimate on when the next phase could open up in FL.

They update it weekly, allocation has been anywhere from the same as previous week to a 25% increase the previous week since January. I'll have to open my excel I have on laptop to get an accurate average.

 

[Epcotfan21]

Are we still waiting for the Super Bowl super spreader to commence? Wait two more weeks?

 

[havoc315]

What was said prior to inauguration by a different administration hell bent on remaining in power is completely irrelevant.

Dr. Fauci and CDC scientists were not hell bent on keeping Trump in power. That’s absurd.

CDC scientists and Biden officials are not Pfizer and Moderna. You specifically said Pfizer and Moderna fell way behind on their goals that they had in December and January. Not true at all. They have moved up the dates for deliveries which is well established and I know you know is a true statement. Last I’ll say on that.

If it seemed to you like I was “blaming” Pfizer and Moderna.. let me revise and be very clear:
We are significantly behind our deployment expectations that the government was projecting as of December and January. Part of that is indeed that Pfizer and Moderna fell behind initially.
(Undeniable fact.. I posted article after article). Part may have been unrealistic expectations by government. In fact, Pfizer and Moderna ADMITTED they fell behind in sworn testimony to congress just a couple weeks ago:

"Pfizer had expected to deliver 30 to 40 million doses to the US by the end of 2020 but only hit the 40 million mark last week. Moderna had been projected to deliver 20 million doses to the US by the end of 2020 but fell short by a week. When asked on Tuesday why they didn't deliver on time, executives for the companies said access to raw materials and manufacturing a product that had never been made before both contributed to the problem.

"We did initially experience some problems with the initial ramp up of our vaccine," John Young, Pfizer's chief business officer, said. "We particularly saw some rate-limiting steps for the raw materials," Young added."

Pfizer, Moderna, J&J pledge 240 million total Covid-19 vaccine doses by the end of March

The United States can expect to see a total of 240 million doses of coronavirus vaccine by the end of March, drug companies told a House subcommittee Tuesday.

www.cnn.com

Part may have been an expectation. That AZ would be approved by now. May be other parts as well. It is undeniable that we are behind the expectations of December and January. Moderna and Pfizer have indeed moved up their later goals, but they have been behind in actual deliveries. And we are unlikely to be getting the AZ vaccine any time soon

To circle back to the original point of all of this, in the second from last week of February Fauci changed his story from a return to normal by Fall to a return to normal by 2022. You said he changed his story because the vaccine deployment fell several months behind.

Said 1-2 months behind. Which is entirely true

By the start of February we all already knew that Pfizer and Moderna would ship their first 200M doses each by end of May

So In January, they said 220 million by the end of March. Then in February, they shifted it 2 months later — end of May.

And in February, Fauci subtly shifted his tone from “fall” to “by Christmas.”

Hmmmm... so shortly after we learned that vaccine delivery was about 2 months behind initial projections, Fauci shifted his tone by a couple of months.

They actually are *still * claiming they will get to 220 million by the end of March. But even if this is true -- Even if they hit that goal, that would mean 145 million delivered in just the month of March. With the 20 million hopefully coming from JNJ.. Deployment of that many vaccines would require 5.5 million jabs per day, starting today, March 1st. It's unlikely our deployment infrastructure can go from 2-2.5 million per day to 5.5 million per day, overnight.

and the next 100M by the end of July and that hasn’t changed. Nobody from either company has said anything about the targets slipping. Both companies have reconfirmed their projections numerous times. It‘s far more likely that he changed his story because Biden was planning on doing a town hall that week where he stated that our goal is a return to normal for Christmas 2021. It would look pretty bad if POtUS is saying no return to normal until Christmas while his chief advisor is still saying Fall. So my concern is that Fauci changed his story for political reasons and not based on actual science or his actual opinion. That’s not what any of us should want.

That’s honestly nonsense. Biden AND Fauci both said “for Christmas” as a cautious realistic estimate based on the evolving facts. Neither said it wouldn’t be sooner, they both refer to it as a somewhat outside realistic date.
I still expect significant normalization over the course of the fall — and that’s what Biden and Fauci have said. They both have talked about having enough vaccine for all by June-July.

 

[DisneyCane]

Dude...ease off the self quotes

I'm doing it to have the prior data in the post so that it's easy to visualize and see the week to week changes.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

No I absolutely don’t think it’s the same. I just want them to treat us like adults and continue to tell the truth. I don’t need them to slow play the targets in case something slips. I can handle a change to the plan or projections as things change. What I would prefer to avoid is a lot of confusion. The single biggest challenge the current administration faces is getting enough people to take the vaccines. That needs to be the focus.

...many people can handle it...

...still many more can’t get through the seal on a bottle of Advil

 

[WondersOfLife]

Hope everyone is safe and doing well.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Are we still waiting for the Super Bowl super spreader to commence? Wait two more weeks?

Viewership was way down

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Nope. Never said fake. Saying that if you died of a stroke and had a Covid symptom it was allowed to be classified as a Covid death this allowing the facility to receive more money. Of course hospitals did this as they were losing money hand over fist.

So if the cause of death has been faked in so many cases, what is the explanation for all of the excess deaths every week dating back to the week ending 3/28/2020? There have been hundreds of thousands of excess deaths over the past 11 months and the fact that they line up with the start of the pandemic and have generally followed along with the waves in COVID-19 cases isn't just a coincidence.

Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

Figures present excess deaths associated with COVID-19 at the national and state levels.

www.cdc.gov

 

[GoofGoof]

...many people can handle it...

...still many more can’t get through the seal on a bottle of Advil

I have an issue with that to some extent, but I understand where you are coming from. I just think they should stop predicting stuff 9-12 months out and just focus on getting as many people as possible to get vaccinated. If you google it you will see there is a ton of confusion from all over the place on why the targets keep shifting so much. If the goal is a clear and consistent message that’s not what happened. If it takes multiple people explaining what someone really meant by their comments then the comment wasn’t very clear.

 

[Miss Bella]

Not based on the hero’s act

I’m surprised people wouldn’t think these large healthcare corporations would commit fraud. Most of them have been investigated and fined for Medicare fraud in the past. Its out there for the public to see.
Im not saying any fraud was committed during Covid, but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I’m surprised people wouldn’t think these large healthcare corporations would commit fraud. Most of them have been investigated and fined for Medicare fraud in the past. Its out there for the public to see.
Im not saying any fraud was committed during Covid, but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me.

To me, the issue is primarily the lack of any credible evidence to support such a conspiracy theory (particularly when there is evidence from the CDC's excess death count that suggests that the COVID-19 death tally has not been inflated). Also, it is unlikely that hospitals nationwide are all deciding to commit Medicare fraud and nobody - even in DeSantis-led Florida - is catching on to it outside of people posting on the internet.

 

[LittleBuford]

It’s the truth, if you get that sick with Covid your mortality significantly rises. It’s not everyone, but from my observations it’s significantly more then 50%. Early on in the pandemic, we quickly learned this. If you have a loved one currently on a ventilator with Covid their life is in danger, we will still do it if everything else doesn’t work and we have no choice but we try everything else first.

If the doctor hasn’t disclosed this to you they are doing you a disservice, telling decision makers prognosis is part of informed consent. However, information comes very quickly at families when in the ICU and it’s common for some of that information not to sink in, it’s incredibly hard to come to terms with how sick their loved ones are and if you are in this position I am truely sorry.

To co-op a scene from one of my favorite movies, being practically a death sentence, means it’s partially not one. Some people do live through being ventilated and recover but it takes a miracle.

In my darkest days a few months ago, and I thought about what I would do if I caught Covid and ended up in the hospital I seriously considered, as a person in their 30s, choosing to make myself a DNR for that stay. I thankfully never got to that point, so I don’t know if I would have gone through with it, but that’s how serious I thought about it

No, it is not the truth that being put on a ventilator is “practically a death sentence”. It’s talk like that that leads people to think that ventilators are responsible for killing people rather than saving them. My father is currently on a ventilator and owes his life to it. Yes, we realise he may not live—the doctors have made that absolutely clear to us—but without the ventilator, he would most certainly have died.

When I told an acquaintance of mine about my father’s situation, she said, “Oh, those things kill people, and hospitals only use them to make money.” I couldn’t believe that an otherwise educated and rational person could think such a thing, much less say it, but she’s clearly picking up on the kind of alarmist talk that conflates correlation with causation.

The words we choose and use matter.

ETA:

UK Covid-19 patients dying needlessly due to unfounded fears about ventilators

Some critically ill people are refusing intubation, wrongly associating it with higher risk of death, say doctors

www.theguardian.com

 

[DisneyCane]

They update it weekly, allocation has been anywhere from the same as previous week to a 25% increase the previous week since January. I'll have to open my excel I have on laptop to get an accurate average.
View attachment 536458

Thanks for tracking that. It looks like this week FL is supposed to receive 889,700 doses of Pfizer and Moderna combined (444,850 series worth) and 175,000 Johnson & Johnson. Almost 620,000 people in FL should be able to be added to the "people vaccinated" total this week (2.86% of the population).