Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Dan Deesnee]

Do you have a link to some evidence that the vaccines currently under development are improperly tested and dangerous? I just haven’t seen that reported anywhere.

The fact that the process is designed to take a decade or more, and these vaccines will be coming out after only a year is proof enough of the inherent risk factor.

Besides that, several vaccines have had problems recently. I don't have time to pull all the updates on all the Covid vaccines that have had issues but one just today actually:

https://www.jnj.com/our-company/joh...en-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-clinical-trials

 

[BrianLo]

Vaccines won’t be mandated for the general public. If there’s an approved vaccine for children it may possibly be mandated for kids to return to school since there’s lots of precedent to support that. I don’t think we will ever get to the point where you need to be vaccinated to get into WDW or get on an airplane or a cruise ship or anything like that.

Some countries already require proof of vaccination to enter. Yellow Fever is an example.

I'd not be terribly surprised if that isn't a fairly wide spread requirement. Or at the very minimum vaccination in lieu of test/quarantine.

I certainly don't think WDW would be the case... but cruise ships might get swept into that and just create blanket policies?

 

[GoofGoof]

The fact that the process is designed to take a decade or more, and these vaccines will be coming out after only a year is proof enough of the inherent risk factor.

Besides that, several vaccines have had problems recently. I don't have time to pull all the updates on all the Covid vaccines that have had issues but one just today actually:

https://www.jnj.com/our-company/joh...en-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-clinical-trials

The pause from Johnson and Johnson is evidence they are being properly tested not the other way around. The vaccines are being developed fast, but that’s not proof they are dangerous. People can ultimately do whatever they want for themselves and determine if the rewards outweigh the risks. Outside of personal protection against Covid taking the vaccine also helps us get back to normal life faster. Without it the road to recovery will be much slower.

 

[Miss Bella]

Some countries already require proof of vaccination to enter. Yellow Fever is an example.

I'd not be terribly surprised if that isn't a fairly wide spread requirement. Or at the very minimum vaccination in lieu of test/quarantine.

I certainly don't think WDW would be the case... but cruise ships might get swept into that and just create blanket policies?

It depends on if they can fill their ships with a vaccine requirement. I'm sure they'll mandate it for the crew.

 

[Chi84]

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ovid-vaccine-mandate-would-actually-work-cvd/
Shirt, shoes and inoculation required.

 

[GoofGoof]

It depends on if they can fill their ships with a vaccine requirement. I'm sure they'll mandate it for the crew.

I could see it for certain jobs for sure. Like working at a nursing home or some other professions where it would be critical to keep people free from Covid. Cruise ships have a lot to lose with a Covid outbreak. It’s a tough call.

 

[BrianLo]

It depends on if they can fill their ships with a vaccine requirement. I'm sure they'll mandate it for the crew.

Indeed, I guess passengers have the option of not disembarking at certain ports. So you may be right.

I think it comes down to how wide spread the caribbean nations require it for entry more than anything.

 

[OrlandoRising]

I said why in my post. Vaccines take 10-15 years to ensure safety. Why would someone young with no risk factor for covid take a improperly tested, potentially dangerous vaccine?

Sure it kills people in their 30s, almost every time with major pre existing conditions.

Hi, felt compelled to jump in here. A reminder to those who don't know me that my day job is a journalist covering health misinformation.

You're correct that vaccines typically take much longer to develop, it's not as simple as stating that because it's being developed more quickly, it's inherently unsafe.

That typical 10- to 15-year window can be shrunk by:
-Knowing what protein to target based on earlier work with the SARS and MERS coronaviruses
-Setting up the infrastructure for Phase 1-3 trials consecutively, rather than months or yearslong delays. This means that when vaccines entered Phase 1 trials, companies were preparing for Phase 3, taking on the monetary risk if the vaccine failed in an earlier phase
-Running trials simultaneously, with independent boards monitoring the data
-Rolling reviews of trial data by health authorities like the FDA and Health Canada

And most importantly, the state of the pandemic. In a typical vaccine trial, researchers have to wait years for enough participants to become ill with whatever pathogen the vaccine seeks to protect against, and then they can un-blind the trial data and figure out whether those who got sick were given the vaccine or the placebo and determine efficacy. That can happen much more quickly in the midst of a pandemic because exposure is much, much more likely (it's also why vaccine trials would likely reject potential participants if they're largely working from home).

The sacrifice being made here is the tremendous financial risk taken by pharma companies and, to an extent, governments, by pouring
hundreds of millions of funding into vaccines that may not work, including creating doses for a product that may end up being ineffective.

The fact that the process is designed to take a decade or more, and these vaccines will be coming out after only a year is proof enough of the inherent risk factor.

Besides that, several vaccines have had problems recently. I don't have time to pull all the updates on all the Covid vaccines that have had issues but one just today actually:

https://www.jnj.com/our-company/joh...en-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-clinical-trials

What you just cited shows the Phase 3 trials are working as intended; these kinds of pauses are a common safety precaution at this stage. Dr. Fauci said as much when AstraZeneca's trial was paused.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/09/dr-...coronavirus-vaccine-trial-placed-on-hold.html

 

[Miss Bella]

I could see it for certain jobs for sure. Like working at a nursing home or some other professions where it would be critical to keep people free from Covid. Cruise ships have a lot to lose with a Covid outbreak. It’s a tough call.

I think forcing a vaccine is just going to lead to more civil unrest in this country. As far as cruise lines I'm not that optimistic about their economic survival.

 

[Chi84]

Vaccines won’t be mandated for the general public. If there’s an approved vaccine for children it may possibly be mandated for kids to return to school since there’s lots of precedent to support that. I don’t think we will ever get to the point where you need to be vaccinated to get into WDW or get on an airplane or a cruise ship or anything like that.

Children have a right to a public education, but can still be required to be vaccinated. No one has a right to go to WDW. I don’t think the government will mandate vaccines, but private businesses (especially those involving large crowds of people) may be able to limit entry to those who are vaccinated. It’s an interesting question in any event.

 

[Miss Bella]

Children have a right to a public education, but can still be required to be vaccinated. No one has a right to go to WDW. I don’t think the government will mandate vaccines, but private businesses (especially those involving large crowds of people) may be able to limit entry to those who are vaccinated. It’s an interesting question in any event.

If 50% of the country doesn't want the vaccine they are losing a lot of customers.

 

[Dan Deesnee]

The pause from Johnson and Johnson is evidence they are being properly tested not the other way around. The vaccines are being developed fast, but that’s not proof they are dangerous. People can ultimately do whatever they want for themselves and determine if the rewards outweigh the risks. Outside of personal protection against Covid taking the vaccine also helps us get back to normal life faster. Without it the road to recovery will be much slower.

Sure, the pause in some of the trials is a good sign, however, it appears you are arguing against the current 10-15 year vaccine development timeline that has been in place for decades to ensure the final product is safe?

I'm not following your logic that the end product vaccine after 1 year of development and testing will be just as safe as vaccines that were put through the proper 10+ years standard procedure for a new vaccine. Sure, they cut through some red tape. But it's simply not possible that a 10-15 year process can be boiled down to 1 year. The extreme length of vaccine development is (in part) to ensure proper time is given to study the long term (multi-year) effects of a vaccine. Can't do that if you release it after 1 year.

 

[Chi84]

If 50% of the country doesn't want the vaccine they are losing a lot of customers.

Be a great incentive for that 50%, especially if a lot of businesses and employers decided to make it a requirement. Right now it’s just interesting speculation.

 

[GoofGoof]

Children have a right to a public education, but can still be required to be vaccinated. No one has a right to go to WDW. I don’t think the government will mandate vaccines, but private businesses (especially those involving large crowds of people) may be able to limit entry to those who are vaccinated. It’s an interesting question in any event.

The school thing is interesting. On one hand kids are less vulnerable to the virus, but they can be carriers and there are adults working in the schools as well as parents and family members. Kids today have to get certain vaccines to attend public schools. There’s some loopholes to get out of it, but it’s mostly required.

The hope is it doesn’t come to any of this. Enough people get the vaccine that the virus is crushed and new cases become rare. Then you don’t need to mandate a vaccine anywhere just like the H1N1 vaccine was never mandated for schools because the pandemic ended shortly after the vaccine came out.

If 50% of the country doesn't want the vaccine they are losing a lot of customers.

There were a lot of political issues around the vaccine development that should blow over soon and the early polling on vaccines reflects a level of uncertainty around the testing process and ultimate clinical trial results. The number could get higher than 50% once the vaccine is out and trial results are made public. There will always be a contingent of people opposed to the vaccine no matter what, it’s getting the people on the fence to commit that will be key to success.

 

[Miss Bella]

The school thing is interesting. On one hand kids are less vulnerable to the virus, but they can be carriers and there are adults working in the schools as well as parents and family members. Kids today have to get certain vaccines to attend public schools. There’s some loopholes to get out of it, but it’s mostly required.

The hope is it doesn’t come to any of this. Enough people get the vaccine that the virus is crushed and new cases become rare. Then you don’t need to mandate a vaccine anywhere just like the H1N1 vaccine was never mandated for schools because the pandemic ended shortly after the vaccine came out.

There were a lot of political issues around the vaccine development that should blow over soon and the early polling on vaccines reflects a level of uncertainty around the testing process and ultimate clinical trial results. The number could get higher than 50% once the vaccine is out and trial results are made public. There will always be a contingent of people opposed to the vaccine no matter what, it’s getting the people on the fence to commit that will be key to success.

Whatever the outcome of the election the political issues about all of this should be over in three weeks.

 

[Horizons '83]

Whatever the outcome of the election the political issues about all of this should be over in three weeks.

If only...

 

[GoofGoof]

Sure, the pause in some of the trials is a good sign, however, it appears you are arguing against the current 10-15 year vaccine development timeline that has been in place for decades to ensure the final product is safe?

I'm not following your logic that the end product vaccine after 1 year of development and testing will be just as safe as vaccines that were put through the proper 10+ years standard procedure for a new vaccine. Sure, they cut through some red tape. But it's simply not possible that a 10-15 year process can be boiled down to 1 year. The extreme length of vaccine development is (in part) to ensure proper time is given to study the long term (multi-year) effects of a vaccine. Can't do that if you release it after 1 year.

The Mumps vaccine was developed in less than 4 years in the 1960s without the technology or the limitless capital investment we have today with Covid. It’s not unprecedented to develop a vaccine in less than 10-15 years. Of course there won’t be enough time to study multi-year effects of the vaccine in a year, but what is the history of vaccines being developed that showed positive results and passed initial clinical trials only to be stopped years later because of long term effects? I don’t know the answer, I’m curious what the precedent is. If there’s a long history of finding issues years into clinical trials than it’s more of a concern. From everything I’ve read and seen discussed there’s not a high risk of finding those types of problems due to the nature of how the vaccines work.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sure, the pause in some of the trials is a good sign, however, it appears you are arguing against the current 10-15 year vaccine development timeline that has been in place for decades to ensure the final product is safe?

I'm not following your logic that the end product vaccine after 1 year of development and testing will be just as safe as vaccines that were put through the proper 10+ years standard procedure for a new vaccine. Sure, they cut through some red tape. But it's simply not possible that a 10-15 year process can be boiled down to 1 year. The extreme length of vaccine development is (in part) to ensure proper time is given to study the long term (multi-year) effects of a vaccine. Can't do that if you release it after 1 year.

You’re confusing a typical outcome as some sort of requirement. There is no requirement that a vaccine take a decade or longer to be developed. Some of the COVID-19 vaccine candidates are heavily based on existing work that predates SARS-CoV-2.

 

[Dan Deesnee]

The Mumps vaccine was developed in less than 4 years in the 1960s without the technology or the limitless capital investment we have today with Covid. It’s not unprecedented to develop a vaccine in less than 10-15 years. Of course there won’t be enough time to study multi-year effects of the vaccine in a year, but what is the history of vaccines being developed that showed positive results and passed initial clinical trials only to be stopped years later because of long term effects? I don’t know the answer, I’m curious what the precedent is. If there’s a long history of finding issues years into clinical trials than it’s more of a concern. From everything I’ve read and seen discussed there’s not a high risk of finding those types of problems due to the nature of how the vaccines work.

The 10-15 year process is in place for a reason. If their were hardly any issues found with vaccines after the first year or two in development then obviously at some point in the past 50 years the process length would have been shortened.

I don't want to go back and forth in depth on a subject neither of us understands enough about. I'll just state the facts. The Covid vaccines are being rushed through. The standard process is 10-15 x longer than the amount of time the Covid vaccine is being given.

If someone can't see the safety (potentially massive) issues there then I'm not sure what to tell them.

I like you GoofGoof so I don't want to go back and forth all night on this. Don't take any of my replies as attacking you

 

[Miss Bella]

If only...

one can hope