Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[SamusAranX]

I wasn't trying to be rude, just tired of hearing about the Sweden comparison.

Apologies; my position isn’t one of that Sweden is necessarily the correct one, just that it will be interesting to see how all the different strategies play out.
With people dying, there are never “winners”.

 

[SamusAranX]

What did FL do that was different from anywhere else in the country that opened too quickly? Their cases spiked like TX and AZ and CA and the rest of the sun belt. They pulled back on re-openings, they closed bars, they reduced capacity for indoor dining, in all of the major population centers they mandated masks. It’s almost exactly what TX did or AZ. The fact that there was no statewide mask mandate is essentially a political stunt where the governor can save face and say he didn’t mandate it, but it’s still mandated most places anyway. The point is that what this has shown us is opening too fast or with too few restrictions resulted in a major spike in cases and eventually actions were taken to reverse that trend.

In Sweden the people self regulated and it wasn’t necessary for the government to do as much. In FL when they opened bars they were jammed with people not following good safety practices and it took governments regulations to reverse that.

They let theme parks reopen. No mask mandate as we mentioned. Beaches barely closed. Quarantine removed for most out of staters. They were more “loose” then other states.
And it’s interesting that Arizona was brought up. They’ve basically pulverize curve. Cali is starting to do better but it’s weird that as strict at they’ve been they are lagging behind in improving the first curve.

 

[GoofGoof]

They let theme parks reopen. No mask mandate as we mentioned. Beaches barely closed. Quarantine removed for most out of staters. They were more “loose” then other states.
And it’s interesting that Arizona was brought up. They’ve basically pulverize curve. Cali is starting to do better but it’s weird that as strict at they’ve been they are lagging behind in improving the first curve.

Theme parks are open most places. Hershey Park here in PA opened before WDW. AZ had a major pull back on re-opening. They shut down bars, gyms, movie theaters, water parks and banned any gathering over 50 people. It worked. Their cases are way down.

On the mask issue 19 counties in FL have some form of mask mandate including the 10 largest (those counties alone make up over 2/3 of the population). So similar to TX and AZ there isn‘t a statewide mandate but the local ones cover the vast majority of the population (In TX it was mandated by the governor but excludes counties with lower population and therefore less Covid).

 

[Jwink]

Maybe people learned the lesson from the “lost summer”. I am a bit nervous about the desire to have football games with fans in the stands. God I’d love to be able to go to tailgates and a game right now, but it’s just not a good idea. We need to have some self control and show restraint or you are right...we will be right back in the same boat.

Yeah we had tickets to monster jam world finals ... we were so upset. It’s totally a family affair/tradition. And it was only the second they had done it in Florida. We tailgate and meet the drivers etc. My 8 year old loves it. I also feel like we missed so many 1st year photo ops with our daughter. No first Easter bunny ... hopefully we can do stuff through fall and winter

 

[SamusAranX]

Theme parks are open most places. Hershey Park here in PA opened before WDW. AZ had a major pull back on re-opening. They shut down bars, gyms, movie theaters, water parks and banned any gathering over 50 people. It worked. Their cases are way down.

On the mask issue 19 counties in FL have some form of mask mandate including the 10 largest (those counties alone make up over 2/3 of the population). So similar to TX and AZ there isn‘t a statewide mandate but the local ones cover the vast majority of the population (In TX it was mandated by the governor but excludes counties with lower population and therefore less Covid).

but, in PA’s defense, and you can correct me if my perception is wrong, they had a much harder lockdown, right?

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, I just think Florida, for good or bad, halfheartedly did things in the name of “personal responsibility” and they can’t really be compared to many other states. Maybe Texas?

 

[GoofGoof]

but, in PA’s defense, and you can correct me if my perception is wrong, they had a much harder lockdown, right?

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, I just think Florida, for good or bad, halfheartedly did things in the name of “personal responsibility” and they can’t really be compared to many other states. Maybe Texas?

We had stay at home orders the same as almost every other state. Places like Montana didn’t have one but the rest of the country did. I don’t think it was any different than FL. PA is basically 3 states: Philly area, Pittsburgh area and a whole lot of nothing in between. The re-opening has been much slower (especially near Philly and Pitt) with a deliberate pace and it started a little later due to case numbers. Things opened more in phases over time vs the sprint to re-open in FL. By July 1 all areas of PA were in the final phase of re-opening (with many counties starting earlier in June) but beginning in early July they did pull back on bars being open just like everywhere else.

I think most states have actually been somewhat similar. The tone from the top is very different depending on what party the governor is from. A lot of times very similar policies were enacted with different spin. For instance public perception is that CA was much stricter than FL but in reality CA opened bars at the same time and also had no statewide mask mandate. Before the spike in cases the CA governor had started approving their theme parks to open in July. Both closed bars at the same time and CA mandated masks statewide. The FL governor took the “no blame” approach. He didn’t mandate masks, he left it up to the local leaders to be the bad guys. At the end of the day the result is mostly the same with the only difference being a more hostile public who are confused by the conflicting orders when the governor says no masks and the mayor says masks needed. That’s why I like the approach TX took. Mandate masks statewide and make a loophole for the really rural areas.

 

[October82]

not to be flippant but...

Sweden pop. : 10,343,403
Denmark: 5,824,000
Finland: 5,528,000
Norway: 5,432,850

source Wikipedia.
So Sweden should have more deaths yes but the disparity is still there.

Sweden has a factor of 10-20x more deaths, for a factor of 2 higher in population. We're not talking about slight differences in per capita mortality that can be explained by population differences. Sweden's response was one of complete failure and abdication of responsibility. As was the response of the United States, Brazil and Russia.

The issue with Sweden was their failure to protect nursing homes properly.

Because you can't do this. You can not isolate a large segment of the population from the rest of society to the degree you would need to prevent transmission of a respiratory infection. What you need to do is reduce the overall rate of transmission so that fewer people are transmitting the virus at all.

 

[Andrew C]

Sweden is sort of a mixed bag. Higher death rate than the other Scandinavian countries but lower than others in Europe like UK, Italy and Spain. They limited large groups while keeping schools opened. They didn’t have a mandatory mask mandate or some other really tight restrictions, but their compliance rate for the restrictions they did have in place was and is still really high compared to other countries. And much of it was voluntary. I assume their precautions were just more acceptable to the population overall? I believe their experts think that other countries are using masks as the end all, be all, which causes a false sense of security and people dont think they have to follow other safety measures. They are big on social distancing practices from what I understand. They have admitted the death rate is higher than they would have hoped and testing should have been better. But they also say they would have taken the same route again more or less. While other countries in Europe see a surge, they are not. At least not yet. Would I call it a failure for them? No, not anymore than the rest of Europe. This isn’t over yet, however. I guess will see where they stand by the end of the year.

Swedish PM defends COVID strategy from criticism over death toll

Sweden has chosen the right strategy in fighting the spread of the new coronavirus, Prime Minister Stefan Lofven said on Friday, defending his government's decision not to adopt a strict lockdown as many European countries have done.

www.reuters.com

Sweden’s disease expert says just wearing face masks could be ‘very dangerous’

Sweden’s top infectious disease expert has resisted recommending face masks for the general population — arguing it’s “very dangerous” if people believe the coverings alone …

nypost.com

 

[celluloid]

Sweden’s disease expert says just wearing face masks could be ‘very dangerous’

Sweden’s top infectious disease expert has resisted recommending face masks for the general population — arguing it’s “very dangerous” if people believe the coverings alone …

nypost.com

Well that just goes back to proper communication on the deliverer of the message and the reciever.
It does not stop the risk. That would be false for just about anything or any virus of this type. But it helps mitigate the risk and that is a great thing to practice when possible.

 

[JoeCamel]

Sweden is sort of a mixed bag. Higher death rate than the other Scandinavian countries but lower than others in Europe like UK, Italy and Spain. They limited large groups while keeping schools opened. They didn’t have a mandatory mask mandate or some other really tight restrictions, but their compliance rate for the restrictions they did have in place was and is still really high compared to other countries. And much of it was voluntary. I assume their precautions were just more acceptable to the population overall? I believe their experts think that other countries are using masks as the end all, be all, which causes a false sense of security and people dont think they have to follow other safety measures. They are big on social distancing practices from what I understand. They have admitted the death rate is higher than they would have hoped and testing should have been better. But they also say they would have taken the same route again more or less. While other countries in Europe see a surge, they are not. At least not yet. Would I call it a failure for them? No, not anymore than the rest of Europe. This isn’t over yet, however. I guess will see where they stand by the end of the year.

Swedish PM defends COVID strategy from criticism over death toll

Sweden has chosen the right strategy in fighting the spread of the new coronavirus, Prime Minister Stefan Lofven said on Friday, defending his government's decision not to adopt a strict lockdown as many European countries have done.

www.reuters.com

Sweden’s disease expert says just wearing face masks could be ‘very dangerous’

Sweden’s top infectious disease expert has resisted recommending face masks for the general population — arguing it’s “very dangerous” if people believe the coverings alone …

nypost.com

I wouldn't be using the UK response as a benchmark, it was delayed at best and bungled at worst.
Spain and Italy were blindsided by the transmission to the manufacturing plants before they knew what was happening and how to respond. The subsequent surges are on the population to take seriously and bring in the testing, tracing, masking and distancing so to tamp it down.
We have proved it can be done, if we keep doing it we can get back to some sort of life again.
Next emergency incoming, it always does and if we can learn to respond properly and quickly we can minimize the overall damage so we all benefit.
Sweden's response is not the wise path from what I have seen of this.

 

[Disney Analyst]

Interesting how so many states had stay at home
orders and the numbers are still as crazy as they are. I’d argue that perhaps those orders didn’t really work, and resulted in the flippant disregard to the rules you see now.

We didn’t have stay at home orders in Canada. Sure most stayed home and limited their outside contact to grocery stores and essential needs, but most trails, parks, and outdoor public spaces remained open and people welcomed.

Perhaps the American approach has been wrong from the start.

 

[SamusAranX]

Sweden is sort of a mixed bag. Higher death rate than the other Scandinavian countries but lower than others in Europe like UK, Italy and Spain. They limited large groups while keeping schools opened. They didn’t have a mandatory mask mandate or some other really tight restrictions, but their compliance rate for the restrictions they did have in place was and is still really high compared to other countries. And much of it was voluntary. I assume their precautions were just more acceptable to the population overall? I believe their experts think that other countries are using masks as the end all, be all, which causes a false sense of security and people dont think they have to follow other safety measures. They are big on social distancing practices from what I understand. They have admitted the death rate is higher than they would have hoped and testing should have been better. But they also say they would have taken the same route again more or less. While other countries in Europe see a surge, they are not. At least not yet. Would I call it a failure for them? No, not anymore than the rest of Europe. This isn’t over yet, however. I guess will see where they stand by the end of the year.

Swedish PM defends COVID strategy from criticism over death toll

Sweden has chosen the right strategy in fighting the spread of the new coronavirus, Prime Minister Stefan Lofven said on Friday, defending his government's decision not to adopt a strict lockdown as many European countries have done.

www.reuters.com

Sweden’s disease expert says just wearing face masks could be ‘very dangerous’

Sweden’s top infectious disease expert has resisted recommending face masks for the general population — arguing it’s “very dangerous” if people believe the coverings alone …

nypost.com

Couldn’t have said it better myself

 

[Jrb1979]

Interesting how so many states had stay at home
orders and the numbers are still as crazy as they are. I’d argue that perhaps those orders didn’t really work, and resulted in the flippant disregard to the rules you see now.

We didn’t have stay at home orders in Canada. Sure most stayed home and limited their outside contact to grocery stores and essential needs, but most trails, parks, and outdoor public spaces remained open and people welcomed.

Perhaps the American approach has been wrong from the start.

Like I said before the lack of people traveling around Canada has helped too. People are still traveling around the US. Same as Europe as many are still traveling between countries.

 

[JoeCamel]

Perhaps the American approach has been wrong from the start.

I can agree with that!

 

[Disney Analyst]

Like I said before the lack of people traveling around Canada has helped too. People are still traveling around the US. Same as Europe as many are still traveling between countries.

Totally. We basically shut that down until recently. But there is a bunch of travel now in provinces and between.

 

[GoofGoof]

Interesting how so many states had stay at home
orders and the numbers are still as crazy as they are. I’d argue that perhaps those orders didn’t really work, and resulted in the flippant disregard to the rules you see now.

We didn’t have stay at home orders in Canada. Sure most stayed home and limited their outside contact to grocery stores and essential needs, but most trails, parks, and outdoor public spaces remained open and people welcomed.

Perhaps the American approach has been wrong from the start.

It’s all about how the stay at home orders are spun in the media and in the social media echo chambers. The original stay at home orders are referred to as “lock downs” by a large number of people but in almost all cases they were far from it. People could still shop for essential goods, get food from restaurants take out, get necessary medical treatments, still go to work in certain cases and do most outdoor activities. We were hardly “locked down”. I don’t disagree that the orders failed but I think it was mostly because Americans lost interest when Memorial Day rolled around and decided they were done “sacrificing”. The re-opening coming out of lock downs was botched badly in a lot of places due to politics and impatience. That part of the approach was definitely wrong.

According to @Jrb1979 Canada seems to have some restrictions on indoor dining still in place. That’s one of the first things that got challenged in the US and one of the main reasons we had a spike in cases.

 

[Disney Analyst]

It’s all about how the stay at home orders are spun in the media and in the social media echo chambers. The original stay at home orders are referred to as “lock downs” by a large number of people but in almost all cases they were far from it. People could still shop for essential goods, get food from restaurants take out, get necessary medical treatments, still go to work in certain cases and do most outdoor activities. We were hardly “locked down”. I don’t disagree that the orders failed but I think it was mostly because Americans lost interest when Memorial Day rolled around and decided they were done “sacrificing”. The re-opening coming out of lock downs was botched badly in a lot of places due to politics and impatience. That part of the approach was definitely wrong.

According to @Jrb1979 Canada seems to have some restrictions on indoor dining still in place. That’s one of the first things that got challenged in the US and one of the main reasons we had a spike in cases.

Oh definitely restrictions in place for restaurants.

Limited capacity, distancing in place. Maximum 6 guests at a table. Only supposed to get up if needing the restroom.

 

[rowrbazzle]

It’s all about how the stay at home orders are spun in the media and in the social media echo chambers. The original stay at home orders are referred to as “lock downs” by a large number of people but in almost all cases they were far from it. People could still shop for essential goods, get food from restaurants take out, get necessary medical treatments, still go to work in certain cases and do most outdoor activities. We were hardly “locked down”. I don’t disagree that the orders failed but I think it was mostly because Americans lost interest when Memorial Day rolled around and decided they were done “sacrificing”. The re-opening coming out of lock downs was botched badly in a lot of places due to politics and impatience. That part of the approach was definitely wrong.

Yeah. I think the plan (though there were different plans in different places) was okay. The problem was too many people failed to follow the plan.

 

[SamusAranX]

Sweden has a factor of 10-20x more deaths, for a factor of 2 higher in population. We're not talking about slight differences in per capita mortality that can be explained by population differences. Sweden's response was one of complete failure and abdication of responsibility. As was the response of the United States, Brazil and Russia.



Because you can't do this. You can not isolate a large segment of the population from the rest of society to the degree you would need to prevent transmission of a respiratory infection. What you need to do is reduce the overall rate of transmission so that fewer people are transmitting the virus at all.

I said there was a disparity so I agree there.

and call me crazy, but nursing homes can take a ton of precautions (and still are) that can prevent some, but not all outbreaks. No visitors, mandatory masks, and cyclical and frequent testing for the staff. Oh, and don’t mandate they take a COVID positive resident back from the hospital.....

 

[Basil of Baker Street]

Interesting how so many states had stay at home
orders and the numbers are still as crazy as they are. I’d argue that perhaps those orders didn’t really work, and resulted in the flippant disregard to the rules you see now.

We didn’t have stay at home orders in Canada. Sure most stayed home and limited their outside contact to grocery stores and essential needs, but most trails, parks, and outdoor public spaces remained open and people welcomed.

Perhaps the American approach has been wrong from the start.

Probably because there's nothing to do in Canada.