MK Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[Brer Oswald]

People are getting off track again.

Just like Strip the King Weathers when Chick Hicks knocked him off in the Piston Cup race.

 

[mickEblu]

And now let’s turn to the book of Rohde for one of my favorite passages….

“
Now, we theme park designers do not build temples or churches, and our stories are not sacred, but the underlying logic of the Eternal Return still applies to the best of narrative placemaking.

The real world is brutally amoral and relentless in its rate of destruction and replacement. There are few refuges from this assault. Theme parks, at their best, can be such places, secular though they are. People step out of the chaos and into an ordered ceremonial world where time is arrested. Beloved important moments are re-enacted in a space that is outside of history.

That's why it's such a shock when time intrudes, either with changes, or more tellingly with new events that are too anchored in contemporary relevance.”

Great quote. Don’t think I’ve ever seen it. And since he’s still affiliated with the company I’ll say the part he can’t…

“That's why it's such a shock when time intrudes, either with changes, or more tellingly with new events that are too anchored in contemporary relevance OR SOMETHING INFERIOR.”

 

[Jayspency]

well now were sorta back on track

 

[Streetway Again]

People are getting off track again.

How will the rivers of America being replaced by cars affect LeBron’s legacy?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Back to ride vehicles - Disney has never mentioned this will be trackless correct?

 

[James Alucobond]

Back to ride vehicles - Disney has never mentioned this will be trackless correct?

Footage from D23 Brazil was posted here that indicates (or at least suggests, if you want to err on the side of skepticism) trackless.

 

[Fox&Hound]

They can literally build whatever they want, wherever they want. They turned swampland into theme parks and resorts. They can expand the park however they want to. But they're choosing to do it this way instead.

Ummm not true at all.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Footage from D23 Brazil was posted here that indicates (or at least suggests, if you want to err on the side of skepticism) trackless.

I’ve seen that. But I don’t think that shows it’s trackless - I believe those are just ATV vehicles being driven through a track. It’s testing what different banks and such feel like.

 

[Nickm2022]

All the concept art shows no tracks even when rides like new test track show the tracks

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

All the concept art shows no tracks even when rides like new test track show the tracks

There’s definitely concept art for radiator springs racers that doesn’t show a track.

 

[JoeCamel]

Ummm not true at all.

If money is not a consideration they probably can

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

Ummm not true at all.

How not? Maybe it takes money, but it's possible!

 

[lazyboy97o]

But if the effect the river has is operating at a subconscious level, surely its replacement could do the same?

The Rivers of America is the central organizing element of Frontierland and Liberty Square. Its replacement is specifically being designed to not be that, it is intentionally being hidden.

It’s the same reason the Main Street bypasses are not the same experience as Main Street proper even though in both cases you’re ostensibly walking along walls. Even if the walls were significantly plussed it still wouldn’t be the same. The visual permeability of different edge conditions changes our perception of them. A wall with street level windows is perceived differently than one without. People drive faster when subdivisions don’t have street trees because, despite the actual edge, the curb of the road, being similar, the perceived edges of the space are different.

The Rivers of America are an edge condition but visually transparent. The obvious anachronism of cartoon cars zipping around means what we’ve been shown, a new edge condition that is visually opaque. These are opposite things and people will not respond the same to these starkly different conditions. This visual openness is also important to the story of Liberty Square and Frontierland. Adventureland is also laid out along an edge, that is also water, but its edge is opaque. The buildings of Adventureland do not follow the contour of this edge, they follow their own pattern culminating in a plaza, a space that was defined by the buildings, not the wilderness. This is because, despite being played for laughs, the wilderness of Adventureland is inhospitable and untamed, it is something kept at a distance. Frontierland is the opposite story, it is the embrace and conquering of the wilderness. The buildings follow the contour of the river, they work with it, not ignoring its presence. It’s big and open, not closed and confined which is being proposed. Without that defining feature the entire space loses the thing along which it is shaped, along which its central story is centered.

Liberty Square and Frontierland also tell a story that is intentionally bookended. They didn’t just plop things down because there wasn’t an idea of what to do with the space. The Haunted Mansion and Thunder Mesa were intentional bookends to one story. The lack of a berm is also intentional, an opportunity that remains unique to the Magic Kingdom. The Haunted Mansion is the old haunted house on the hill, its presentation was setup as something isolated. Thunder Mesa was the intended weenie for the entire two land sequence, a culmination of the story of conquering the wilderness of the frontier, a massive edifice dotted with bits of human activity. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad ended up filling that space and while visually smaller, is still something that exists as an isolated element, not something in the center of activity. These spaces are the ends of where we inhabit with more beyond our reach. Breaking this intentional bookend should also be done for strong storytelling purposes, not just perceived operational efficiencies. Efficiency is the last Key for a reason, and there are plenty of times where what operations wants is bad show. Theme parks are storytelling through built space and therefore the creation of space should have first and foremost a storytelling purpose. As much as operations gets input there’s a reason they don’t get to do the design work.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Fine. So you’re the master planner now. The park wants to build 4 new attractions as well as dining and shops. You’re told you need to maintain as much future flexibility as possible. What would you do?

Like I said earlier, I’m not doing free work. Plenty of people have outlined different paths, not to mention other pads and underutilized spaces that are not central design elements. The inability to replace Stitch’s Great Escape is what actually hurts future flexibility because the organization hast lost the ability to work with smaller and layered spaces. They need a massive greenfield instead of being able to infill, and the poor layout of that new space will in turn hinder future infilling.

My point was that shrinking the river in order to develop the northwest corner of the park presents more significant water management challenges than those encountered in Anaheim. Am I wrong?

Everything at Walt Disney World presents more significant water management challenges compared to Anaheim. It’s a swamp that gets about four times as much rain per year. That they’re spending a lot to do this doesn’t really prove anything when they so often poorly spend money.

You can't keep enough of the river to be worth it in almost an idea i can come up with, the boat has no clearance to move and you have to build infrastructure for the river that doesn't exist.

What infrastructure? It’s a simple guide track. And because the boat is on a track its clearance requirements are much less than a real boat. The river edge also doesn’t have to be gradual and can instead be vertical.

Yeah, because MK's and pre-2016 Disneyland's rivers are exactly the same. Except for the canal next to MK's Big Thunder meaning a bridge would be needed to connect the path in front of Big Thunder to that expansion plot. Except for the lack of space for a path next to Haunted Mansion meaning the ROA would need to be shortened on the Liberty Square side. Except that adding a small path to the left of Haunted Mansion will create a bigger bottleneck than there already is there with people trying to get to Villains or Haunted Mansion. The ROA were always going to be altered as soon as Beyond Big Thunder was announced. Let's not spend the next 3-4 years repeating the same arguments

The Magic Kingdom already has bridges. They relatively recently built a guest bridge over that very same canal. The bridge wouldn’t even need to open when guests are in the park like they do every day at Epcot. Just altering bits of the Rivers of America isn’t what would be an issue nor would that remove them as a central design element.

 

[Agent H]

We’ve entered the bargaining phase I see?

“Disney I’ve come to bargain”

 

[Stripes]

Neither is having Cars fill that spot. I would upset regardless with ROA leaving but I would understand if it was an IP that fit Frontierland.

The theme of the land or park doesn't matter to many anymore. They just want their IP they grew up with.

You won’t be able to see or hear the cars. Although part of Frontierland (because the Cars area will be too small to call it a proper land and because it fits the geography and spirit of the American frontier), it will be very disconnected.

And now let’s turn to the book of Rohde for one of my favorite passages….

“
Now, we theme park designers do not build temples or churches, and our stories are not sacred, but the underlying logic of the Eternal Return still applies to the best of narrative placemaking.

The real world is brutally amoral and relentless in its rate of destruction and replacement. There are few refuges from this assault. Theme parks, at their best, can be such places, secular though they are. People step out of the chaos and into an ordered ceremonial world where time is arrested. Beloved important moments are re-enacted in a space that is outside of history.

That's why it's such a shock when time intrudes, either with changes, or more tellingly with new events that are too anchored in contemporary relevance.”

I love this quote. It’s so true.

It is a shock to lose the Rivers of America, just as it was a shock to lose many attractions over the years. But, I stand by my position that it’s a good decision.

The Rivers of America is the central organizing element of Frontierland and Liberty Square. Its replacement is specifically being designed to not be that, it is intentionally being hidden.

It’s the same reason the Main Street bypasses are not the same experience as Main Street proper even though in both cases you’re ostensibly walking along walls. Even if the walls were significantly plussed it still wouldn’t be the same. The visual permeability of different edge conditions changes our perception of them. A wall with street level windows is perceived differently than one without. People drive faster when subdivisions don’t have street trees because, despite the actual edge, the curb of the road, being similar, the perceived edges of the space are different.

The Rivers of America are an edge condition but visually transparent. The obvious anachronism of cartoon cars zipping around means what we’ve been shown, a new edge condition that is visually opaque. These are opposite things and people will not respond the same to these starkly different conditions. This visual openness is also important to the story of Liberty Square and Frontierland. Adventureland is also laid out along an edge, that is also water, but its edge is opaque. The buildings of Adventureland do not follow the contour of this edge, they follow their own pattern culminating in a plaza, a space that was defined by the buildings, not the wilderness. This is because, despite being played for laughs, the wilderness of Adventureland is inhospitable and untamed, it is something kept at a distance. Frontierland is the opposite story, it is the embrace and conquering of the wilderness. The buildings follow the contour of the river, they work with it, not ignoring its presence. It’s big and open, not closed and confined which is being proposed. Without that defining feature the entire space loses the thing along which it is shaped, along which its central story is centered.

Liberty Square and Frontierland also tell a story that is intentionally bookended. They didn’t just plop things down because there wasn’t an idea of what to do with the space. The Haunted Mansion and Thunder Mesa were intentional bookends to one story. The lack of a berm is also intentional, an opportunity that remains unique to the Magic Kingdom. The Haunted Mansion is the old haunted house on the hill, its presentation was setup as something isolated. Thunder Mesa was the intended weenie for the entire two land sequence, a culmination of the story of conquering the wilderness of the frontier, a massive edifice dotted with bits of human activity. Big Thunder Mountain Railroad ended up filling that space and while visually smaller, is still something that exists as an isolated element, not something in the center of activity. These spaces are the ends of where we inhabit with more beyond our reach. Breaking this intentional bookend should also be done for strong storytelling purposes, not just perceived operational efficiencies. Efficiency is the last Key for a reason, and there are plenty of times where what operations wants is bad show. Theme parks are storytelling through built space and therefore the creation of space should have first and foremost a storytelling purpose. As much as operations gets input there’s a reason they don’t get to do the design work.

The story of Liberty Square and Frontierland can adapt to a new story.

Liberty Square’s story can change from a town with established river trade to one sat on the last settled edge of the colonies, surrounded by forested cliffs and waterfalls.

The Haunted Mansion is the grand estate on the edge of the wild, untouched woods. It’s been said that spirits roam the woods. Those who have dared to venture into the woods have perished, but their spirits live on…somewhere.

Instead of following a river into the unknown, guests will traverse a rocky mountain pass, key obstacles in America’s westward expansion, emphasizing the resilience of America’s pioneers.

Frontierland, once a prosperous boom town, now struggles without the river, lost in a natural disaster, that brought it such prosperity. Remnants of the river’s past—dry riverbeds, abandoned docks, and ghost town ruins—tell the story of a town that once thrived but is now adapting to a harsher, more isolated landscape. Some locals blame the disaster on the supernatural, such as vengeful spirits.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The story of Liberty Square and Frontierland can adapt to a new story.

Liberty Square’s story can change from a town with established river trade to one sat on the last settled edge of the colonies, surrounded by forested cliffs and waterfalls.

The Haunted Mansion is the grand estate on the edge of the wild, untouched woods. It’s been said that spirits roam the woods. Those who have dared to venture into the woods have perished, but their spirits live on…somewhere.

Instead of following a river into the unknown, guests will traverse a rocky mountain pass, key obstacles in America’s westward expansion, emphasizing the resilience of America’s pioneers.

Frontierland, once a prosperous boom town, now struggles without the river, lost in a natural disaster, that brought it such prosperity. Remnants of the river’s past—dry riverbeds, abandoned docks, and ghost town ruins—tell the story of a town that once thrived but is now adapting to a harsher, more isolated landscape. Some locals blame the disaster on the supernatural, such as vengeful spirits.

Talk about missing the point. The issue isn’t that a backstory can’t be concocted.

 

[Stripes]

Talk about missing the point. The issue isn’t that a backstory can’t be concocted.

I simply thought your critiques of how the existing story of Frontierland follows the river was the stronger argument and focused my response on that. As for the other bit…

You are assuming that the only good spatial organization for Frontierland is one based on openness. This notion that enclosure is bad ignores how intimate and denser environments, such as Disneyland’s Frontierland, can tell stories successfully. In fact, I much prefer Disneyland’s Frontierland to Magic Kingdom’s. A completely open space removes the intrigue and surprise from the experience and it dilutes the contrast between the achievement of civilization and the struggle of the wilderness.