Building a 3rd park is a mistake

[dingleborder]

Universal Studios and Islands of Adventure are great. They've gotten so much better over the years, and they're continually doing so.
However, I feel like the plans for a third park are a big misstep on Universal's part. US and IoA are too outdated and need to be brought up to date before another park is considered.
Here are my biggest flaws with the current two parks.

Universal Studios
-It has a bit of an identity crisis. It has city themed areas (NYC, San Francisco, London [Diagon Alley]), and then Springfield? Woody Woodpecker's KidZone? Is it trying to be like Epcot's World Showcase?
-Woody Woodpecker's Kidzone is so outdated. Curious George and Barney are not reasons for families to go to a theme park. Universal should've continued with the plans to make that section Nintendo themed, and maybe made a Tokyo facade as the entrance to continue with the city theme. Or, to make Springfield feel less out of place as a fictional city, make Woody Woodpecker's KidZone Bikini Bottom from Spongebob. Universal seems to have a good relationship with Paramount/Viacom, so it would make for a more relevant fit.
-Fear Factor Live has got to go. There are so many cool properties that could replace it as a show, but yet it hasn't happened. Something like Indiana Jones Stunt Spectacular from Hollywood Studios would be cool, but obviously based on a Universal property. A Jason Bourne stunt show could work!

Islands of Adventure
-What even is The Lost Continent? Everything there is cheesy and outdated (despite my love of The Eighth Voyage of Sindbad). Redesigning the area as Berk from How To Train Your Dragon would be much more relevant and engaging. Or, Hyrule from The Legend of Zelda.
-Jurassic Park is very outdated, in my opinion. Jurassic World is being talked about as a land/area at the proposed third park, but Jurassic Park should just be rethemed and updated as Jurassic world.
-Seuss Landing could still work and be better, but Universal doesn't have the complete theatrical rights for Seuss's works. Although Universal has done How the Grinch Stole Christmas (live action), The Cat In The Hat (live action), The Lorax (animated), and the upcoming The Grinch (animated), Blue Sky Studios (20th Century Fox) did Horton Hears a Who! in 2008, and Warner Bros. has plans for an animated The Cat In The Hat. It would be very disjointing to have character designs from the different studio's adaptations for any potential update, despite any good relationships Universal has with Warner Bros. and Fox.
-Toon Lagoon is outdated as well. The cartoons featured in the area are "classics", but haven't been held to the prestige of Disney's classics. Peter Pan's Flight works at Magic Kingdom despite being so old, but Dudley Do-Right’s Ripsaw Falls just feels dated. A Pokémon land would fit much better here (or in Seuss Landing)
-Marvel Super Hero Island has got to go. Disney needs to just buy Universal out of their contract. They have the money, and they could do so much better. Things like Doctor Doom’s Fearfall are such a waste of space and generic to any theme park across the states. Universal should attempt to get the theme park rights to DC characters (which I believe are held by Six Flags currently) and do something cool there.

Does anyone else have thoughts on the current state of the parks/the third park?

 

[lebeau]

Strongly disagree.

Universal is ready to expand beyond its current footprint. As it stands, they have to replace old attractions in order to bring in new ones. The three-park solution would have allowed us to keep Jaws and have Diagon Alley too. While I am sure there will be logistical hurdles to overcome and I don't want to see Universal turned into the nightmare that Disney World is with packed buses carting you all over the place, I definitely think the need some room to grow.

Additionally, I have faith that Universal will continue updating the existing parks while building the new one. Yes, there are areas that could use an update, but I don't think the parks are nearly as dated as you seem to think they are. And no, Universal should not nor will they ever let Marvel go.

Nothing we can do but wait and see how this plays out, but I have confidence that Universal's plan for the resort will be worth waiting for.

 

[OG Runner]

I completely agree with lebeau. Universal has access to so many properties and attendance figures in Florida, make the
opening of an additional park a logical next step. I am sure we will question each step and anything put into a new
park and how it will be presented, (more screen rides!), but it is definitely something that should be done.

 

[JoeCamel]

Universal Studios and Islands of Adventure are great. They've gotten so much better over the years, and they're continually doing so.
However, I feel like the plans for a third park are a big misstep on Universal's part. US and IoA are too outdated and need to be brought up to date before another park is considered.
Here are my biggest flaws with the current two parks.

Universal Studios
-It has a bit of an identity crisis. It has city themed areas (NYC, San Francisco, London [Diagon Alley]), and then Springfield? Woody Woodpecker's KidZone? Is it trying to be like Epcot's World Showcase?
-Woody Woodpecker's Kidzone is so outdated. Curious George and Barney are not reasons for families to go to a theme park. Universal should've continued with the plans to make that section Nintendo themed, and maybe made a Tokyo facade as the entrance to continue with the city theme. Or, to make Springfield feel less out of place as a fictional city, make Woody Woodpecker's KidZone Bikini Bottom from Spongebob. Universal seems to have a good relationship with Paramount/Viacom, so it would make for a more relevant fit.
-Fear Factor Live has got to go. There are so many cool properties that could replace it as a show, but yet it hasn't happened. Something like Indiana Jones Stunt Spectacular from Hollywood Studios would be cool, but obviously based on a Universal property. A Jason Bourne stunt show could work!

Islands of Adventure
-What even is The Lost Continent? Everything there is cheesy and outdated (despite my love of The Eighth Voyage of Sindbad). Redesigning the area as Berk from How To Train Your Dragon would be much more relevant and engaging. Or, Hyrule from The Legend of Zelda.
-Jurassic Park is very outdated, in my opinion. Jurassic World is being talked about as a land/area at the proposed third park, but Jurassic Park should just be rethemed and updated as Jurassic world.
-Seuss Landing could still work and be better, but Universal doesn't have the complete theatrical rights for Seuss's works. Although Universal has done How the Grinch Stole Christmas (live action), The Cat In The Hat (live action), The Lorax (animated), and the upcoming The Grinch (animated), Blue Sky Studios (20th Century Fox) did Horton Hears a Who! in 2008, and Warner Bros. has plans for an animated The Cat In The Hat. It would be very disjointing to have character designs from the different studio's adaptations for any potential update, despite any good relationships Universal has with Warner Bros. and Fox.
-Toon Lagoon is outdated as well. The cartoons featured in the area are "classics", but haven't been held to the prestige of Disney's classics. Peter Pan's Flight works at Magic Kingdom despite being so old, but Dudley Do-Right’s Ripsaw Falls just feels dated. A Pokémon land would fit much better here (or in Seuss Landing)
-Marvel Super Hero Island has got to go. Disney needs to just buy Universal out of their contract. They have the money, and they could do so much better. Things like Doctor Doom’s Fearfall are such a waste of space and generic to any theme park across the states. Universal should attempt to get the theme park rights to DC characters (which I believe are held by Six Flags currently) and do something cool there.

Does anyone else have thoughts on the current state of the parks/the third park?

Umm, why can't we have both?
That is what is happening. Not like they stop working on the original or it's younger sibling when the third offspring is built. Do you do that with kids?

 

[erikjp]

I would have to disagree. No park is ever 'perfect', even every Disney World park has something outdated, and directly compared to Disney World Universal's parks are much more updated on average. Not to mention, Universal can update its parks while still building a third as earlier posters said... and its highly doubtful Universal will allow its old parks to slowly die in favor of the new parks. They know that they have to keep the overall park standards up or else everyone will just only go to the new parks instead of the old ones. They can't pull what Disney is doing with Hollywood Studios, which should honestly just be closed until Star Wars/Toy Story lands are finished since it barely qualifies as a theme park at this point.

Your also getting a bit ahead of yourself, while a third park is definitely happening no one knows exactly what will go in it, or what exact changes will be made at the other parks. No one concretely knows if SNW is going in the new park or is replacing Kidzone. No one knows if Ministry of Magic is replacing Fear Factor Live (or going over to Hogsmeade) or going to the new park.

With regards to the state of the parks now, I actually think Islands of Adventure is great (and is definitely my single favorite theme park in Orlando). I agree that Jurassic Park area needs a refreshing (although I would hate if they removed the Discovery Center from the first films), and I think the Jurassic Falls ride should be changed. I agree that the Marvel area needs a refreshing but only on the surface, it has amazing rides already (Spiderman/Hulk), but of course new rides are always welcome. I don't really spend any time in Seuss Landing as its more geared towards kids. And I actually love the Toon Lagoon area and Dudley Do Right falls is an amazing ride. The only land in Islands of Adventure I think is a complete miss is the Lost Continent/Sinbad area. They could replace it with Zelda (which would completely cement this park as my favorite as I LOVE Zelda) or with Berk from How To Train Your Dragon and I would be happy.

With regards to Universal Studios I agree, the overall theme is a mess (something that I don't agree with regards to Islands of Adventure, whose overall theme works) and it's definitely the most disjointed and outdated park. You have the Production Central/New York/Hollywood areas which are fun to walk around and have some fun rides (Mummy, Minions, and Rip Ride it Rocket is fun but feels oddly out of place) but definitely needs a refresher. I LOVE Springfield and its ride, and of course Diagon Alley/rides are amazing. And the World Plaza place has the MIB ride which I like but its just an odd space. And the kidzone area I've never explored cause I'm not a kid or have kids but the bikini bottom idea actually sounds great. Between that and making a big change, like 2 new rides and a completely refurbished area, near production central/Hollywood/new York/san Francisco, Universal Studios would be rejuvenated.

Overall with regards to how "updated" a park is in Orlando (between Universal and Disney) I think it would go:

Hollywood Studios -> Epcot -> Universal Studios -> Animal Kingdom -> Magic Kingdom -> Islands of Adventure

 

[Coaster Lover]

Said it before and I'll say it again, adding a third gate is less about having room to expand/improve current parks and more about driving the narrative that (like Disney), you should be able nicely fill an entire vacation without ever having to leave Universal Property.

The average American vacation is about one week. If you cannot be perceived to have enough content to nicely fill a week long vacation, people are going to start looking for other ways to fill their trip. If they are looking for other ways to fill their trip, they'll likely get a rental car and may be more likely to stay off property. If they have a rental car and stay off property, they are more likely to have more meals off property and more likely to do shopping off property.

Universal and Disney don't want that. Universal and Disney spend lots of advertising money to get you to come to Orlando, so when you get to Orlando, Universal and Disney would ultimately like to get 100% of the money you spend while you are there (or as close to 100% as possible).

Disney set's up a wonderful narrative... they have four parks (most "average" tourists will assume one park per day), two water parks, a huge shopping area, and plenty of other smaller activities around property. If you watch their planning video, you will note that on multiple occasions they really push that you should plan "at least two days at the Magic Kingdom". They push this narrative that if you come to Disney, you'll have PLENTY to fill up a full week vacation (without ever directly saying it that way). I guarantee you that, despite the fact that Hollywood Studios is arguably a half day park now, most people visiting Disney still plan a full day for the park. They push all of the benefits of staying on property and note the convenience of Magical Express. In reality, Magical Express is all part of the "plan". By running the narrative that you can "let Disney do all of the driving" and that you can get from the airport all around property for free on Disney transportation, it further drives the narrative that you don't need to rent a car (which would just be an opportunity for you to get off property to spend money elsewhere). It really is a beautiful marketing plan that Disney has created over the years to ensure the greatest spending per guest.

It's much harder for Universal to drive that narrative with just two parks. No matter how big the park or how recently you have replaced the aging rides, it's always going to be tough to drive the narrative that you can make a full week's vacation from just two parks. Adding Volcano Bay helped for sure, but adding a third gate will make the "full week" narrative much easier to convince people of.

 

[UCF]

I wish they fill up the existing parks as they work on the new land. The new land will have some sort of a park plus who knows but it will have a theme park. Looked like Universal was full steam a head with everything till Mario got stuck in a pipe. If Nitendoland was under way and a replacement for Fear Factor was being planned I would be happy. Something every year is about all you can expect from a theme park operator. Fast and Furious is going to open soon and Dueling Dragons replacement is under way so there is activity in the "old" parks.

My problem with a new park a bus ride. I don't like how spread out Disney is and the fact that Universal isn't spread out like that is a big plus for me. We'll have to see what happens?

There's still a bunch of things in the pipeline in the existing park, but they have almost no expansion room, and Nintendo was being squeezed in there instead of being given the space it deserves. I hate to break it to anyone who thinks building a 3rd park is a mistake, but according to Universal's attorneys in the land lawsuit, they're looking at adding 2 new parks, and they're claiming that the lawsuit has delayed them on both.

 

[Tony Perkis]

One day, people will know that Disney cannot simply buy out the Marvel contract.

Today is not that day.

 

[JT3000]

One day, people will know that Disney cannot simply buy out the Marvel contract.

Today is not that day.

Oh, it can happen. For a hilariously large sum of money. Problem is, a lot of deluded people have this weird notion that Disney is in the driver's seat and can get a favorable deal, just because they're Disney. That will not and cannot happen. Or they just don't mind seeing Disney get sucked dry, which is kind of weird if you're a Disney fan (even more so if you're a stockholder.)

 

[Tony Perkis]

Oh, it can happen. For a hilariously large sum of money. Problem is, a lot of deluded people have this weird notion that Disney is in the driver's seat and can get a favorable deal, just because they're Disney. That will not and cannot happen. Or they just don't mind seeing Disney get sucked dry, which is kind of weird if you're a Disney fan (even more so if you're a stockholder.)

Well, yeah. But that requires an agreement from Universal to sell. That’s the point of my initial post. If they agree to that sale, Disney isn’t just buying the park rights. They are paying a massive premium due to demand + the lost revenue from ride and merchandise closure + the cost of replacement. It frankly makes no sense for Disney to purchase the rights.

I don’t know why theme park fans want Universal to sell the Marvel rights. Nobody wants to lose the Spider-Man ride.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Well, yeah. But that requires an agreement from Universal to sell. That’s the point of my initial post. If they agree to that sale, Disney isn’t just buying the park rights. They are paying a massive premium due to demand + the lost revenue from ride and merchandise closure + the cost of replacement. It frankly makes no sense for Disney to purchase the rights.

I don’t know why theme park fans want Universal to sell the Marvel rights. Nobody wants to lose the Spider-Man ride.

If Disney forces Uni to hand over the rights they will have to redo the annoyingly spectacular Spider-man ride AND then we can get a Wakanda overlay to Gran Fiesta. They have pyramids in Africa...right?

 

[Tony Perkis]

If Disney forces Uni to hand over the rights they will have to redo the annoyingly spectacular Spider-man ride AND then we can get a Wakanda overlay to Gran Fiesta. They have pyramids in Africa...right?

It’s a close as Universe of Energy to a Guardians of the Galaxy film written and directed by a Troma alumni.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I don’t know why theme park fans want Universal to sell the Marvel rights. Nobody wants to lose the Spider-Man ride.

They want the convenience of having all Orlando Marvel stuff at WDW so they don't have to go to UNI ("ew!") and think Disney can do better than what UNI did in the 90s (debatable).

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I know it would never happen, but I would love it if Cartoon World became UNI's 3rd park. That was the one planned before IoA with DC Comics, Looney Tunes, Dr Seuss and Jay Ward/Popeye. They could relocate some attractions there and expand or add to IoA's current themes.

 

[Ragerunner]

It appears a 3rd park is just the beginning. Disney's market share in Orlando is going to take another hit.

 

[Oriolesmagic]

Said it before and I'll say it again, adding a third gate is less about having room to expand/improve current parks and more about driving the narrative that (like Disney), you should be able nicely fill an entire vacation without ever having to leave Universal Property.

The average American vacation is about one week. If you cannot be perceived to have enough content to nicely fill a week long vacation, people are going to start looking for other ways to fill their trip. If they are looking for other ways to fill their trip, they'll likely get a rental car and may be more likely to stay off property. If they have a rental car and stay off property, they are more likely to have more meals off property and more likely to do shopping off property.

Universal and Disney don't want that. Universal and Disney spend lots of advertising money to get you to come to Orlando, so when you get to Orlando, Universal and Disney would ultimately like to get 100% of the money you spend while you are there (or as close to 100% as possible).

Disney set's up a wonderful narrative... they have four parks (most "average" tourists will assume one park per day), two water parks, a huge shopping area, and plenty of other smaller activities around property. If you watch their planning video, you will note that on multiple occasions they really push that you should plan "at least two days at the Magic Kingdom". They push this narrative that if you come to Disney, you'll have PLENTY to fill up a full week vacation (without ever directly saying it that way). I guarantee you that, despite the fact that Hollywood Studios is arguably a half day park now, most people visiting Disney still plan a full day for the park. They push all of the benefits of staying on property and note the convenience of Magical Express. In reality, Magical Express is all part of the "plan". By running the narrative that you can "let Disney do all of the driving" and that you can get from the airport all around property for free on Disney transportation, it further drives the narrative that you don't need to rent a car (which would just be an opportunity for you to get off property to spend money elsewhere). It really is a beautiful marketing plan that Disney has created over the years to ensure the greatest spending per guest.

It's much harder for Universal to drive that narrative with just two parks. No matter how big the park or how recently you have replaced the aging rides, it's always going to be tough to drive the narrative that you can make a full week's vacation from just two parks. Adding Volcano Bay helped for sure, but adding a third gate will make the "full week" narrative much easier to convince people of.

This is very well written and pretty much sums up almost all of my thoughts on this. I'll also add that, at this current time, Universal can't really get away with doing large, sweeping changes to their two original parks as you suggest here. Simply because of the fact that they don't have as many properties to spread guests out to while that necessary construction happens. Disney has the "luxury" of closing half of DHS while construction takes place because they have three other parks and entertainment on property to move these "displaced" guests to.

TL;DR: These changes that you're asking for at the two original Universal parks won't be able to happen until a third park exists to shoulder some of the load.

 

[JohnD]

Said it before and I'll say it again, adding a third gate is less about having room to expand/improve current parks and more about driving the narrative that (like Disney), you should be able nicely fill an entire vacation without ever having to leave Universal Property.

The average American vacation is about one week. If you cannot be perceived to have enough content to nicely fill a week long vacation, people are going to start looking for other ways to fill their trip. If they are looking for other ways to fill their trip, they'll likely get a rental car and may be more likely to stay off property. If they have a rental car and stay off property, they are more likely to have more meals off property and more likely to do shopping off property.

Universal and Disney don't want that. Universal and Disney spend lots of advertising money to get you to come to Orlando, so when you get to Orlando, Universal and Disney would ultimately like to get 100% of the money you spend while you are there (or as close to 100% as possible).

Disney set's up a wonderful narrative... they have four parks (most "average" tourists will assume one park per day), two water parks, a huge shopping area, and plenty of other smaller activities around property. If you watch their planning video, you will note that on multiple occasions they really push that you should plan "at least two days at the Magic Kingdom". They push this narrative that if you come to Disney, you'll have PLENTY to fill up a full week vacation (without ever directly saying it that way). I guarantee you that, despite the fact that Hollywood Studios is arguably a half day park now, most people visiting Disney still plan a full day for the park. They push all of the benefits of staying on property and note the convenience of Magical Express. In reality, Magical Express is all part of the "plan". By running the narrative that you can "let Disney do all of the driving" and that you can get from the airport all around property for free on Disney transportation, it further drives the narrative that you don't need to rent a car (which would just be an opportunity for you to get off property to spend money elsewhere). It really is a beautiful marketing plan that Disney has created over the years to ensure the greatest spending per guest.

It's much harder for Universal to drive that narrative with just two parks. No matter how big the park or how recently you have replaced the aging rides, it's always going to be tough to drive the narrative that you can make a full week's vacation from just two parks. Adding Volcano Bay helped for sure, but adding a third gate will make the "full week" narrative much easier to convince people of.

Yeah. Earlier I bought into the Disney narrative with a WDW resort stay May 27 - June 2 but day-tripping to Universal in-between. But as I continued planning, I realized that to get maximum benefit out of the UOR parks, including early admission, it would be better for me to stay on-site at Universal. Even then, it's not a full week.

Now my trip is:

• May 27-29: WDW (Ep F&G Festival, SWGN, AK)
• May 29-June 1: Universal (Anything and I everything I can do at USF, IOA, and CityWalk)
• June 1-3: WDW (Mixed bag but mostly MK, AK, and HS)

The silver lining for Universal is that they got a three-night on-site resort stay out of me rather than no stay at all.