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Brightline/Virgin Trains USA

Victor Kelly

Well-Known Member
Virgin wouldn’t be making money. None of those stations allow for dense real estate development by Virgin. Federal regulations also hinder the development of public transportation that focuses on tourist locations.
The amount of money that both Disney and Virgin can bring to bear will overcome any political barriers. Its called lining pockets. How do you think Disney got God like control over the Florida Project?

Stops along the route allow people to move about. That means more money for everyone. True Disney may not like having people use transit to visit other surrounding areas. But it will make money. If both companies are doing this then they are past the feasibility studies and they have been collaborating for years behind closed doors.

What we are seeing is years of work. The very tip of the iceberg. Nobody knows how deep this goes unless they are a part of it. Especially with UNI saying they highly support it.

The future of transportation is intermodal transport. I used to work for my state's department of transportation. And even I underestimated its importance.
 

TrainChasers

Well-Known Member
Local governments are not allowed to use federal transportation funds for tourist oriented transit.

So? This is a transit system that links a majority of the major cities in the state. Having a station at Disney world doesn’t make it tourist oriented. Said station doesn’t require federal or local funds either.
 

HauntedMansionFLA

Well-Known Member
I never said it was better for the guest ;)

By moving guests to Disney property for free, now guests can be picked up by Disney Busses / Minnie Vans which eliminates Mears. That’s where the benefit for Disney comes in.

Long range plan... Disney could operate busses to resorts on a constant loop. Once guests are delivered to the Brightline Station, they can board trains to the airport, Tampa, Miami, and various direct to cruise terminals. When you think about that... there is a lot of potential there. I’m not guessing what Disney will... but it’s a lot to think about.

I agree that it’s not much better for guests... just different. Marketing wise it probably sounds really good though. Does a monorail from Polynesian get you to magic kingdom any faster than the bus from DAK to Animal Kingdom park? No but the marketing of those sleek monorails helps sell it. Same with Brightline / Virgin “high speed rail”
They could expand the Skyliner from the train station to the resorts
 

Green Fox

New Member
By moving guests to Disney property for free, now guests can be picked up by Disney Busses / Minnie Vans which eliminates Mears. That’s where the benefit for Disney comes in.

Why couldn't Disney get rid of Mears now, if they wanted? I could understand why a company like Disney might not want to bother with running their own bus system at all, but the combination of a Disney owned/operated bus system between parks and hotels and a system run by Mears for the airport transit and some cruise traffic never made sense. Why doesn't Disney either run all of it on their own or contract out the entire system?
 

MaryJaneP

Well-Known Member
Local governments are not allowed to use federal transportation funds for tourist oriented transit.

Is the government of the State of Florida considered a "Local government"? If the train line goes across multiple "Local governments", does this matter? Would it be fair to say that a significant of people travelling within a transit system, particularly in Florida, might be classified as "tourists"? Is the possibility of the train limited exclusively to non-tourist oriented travel, because then it is likely be underused and bypass a significant revenue stream.
 

Victor Kelly

Well-Known Member
Why couldn't Disney get rid of Mears now, if they wanted? I could understand why a company like Disney might not want to bother with running their own bus system at all, but the combination of a Disney owned/operated bus system between parks and hotels and a system run by Mears for the airport transit and some cruise traffic never made sense. Why doesn't Disney either run all of it on their own or contract out the entire system?

The short answer is that it takes a lot of the headaches from Disney and puts it in Mears hands. Drivers, fleet maintenance and upkeep, insurance, and operational costs all fall on Mears. Headache free for Disney which pays Mears as a contractor.
 

Green Fox

New Member
The short answer is that it takes a lot of the headaches from Disney and puts it in Mears hands. Drivers, fleet maintenance and upkeep, insurance, and operational costs all fall on Mears. Headache free for Disney which pays Mears as a contractor.
Are these issues significantly worse with the DME and other routes operated by Mears? I can understand why Disney would want to make it somebody else's problem to own and operate a bus fleet. But doesn't Disney own and operate the park to park, park to hotel, and other on-site routes? It would seem to make more sense to either contract out the entire operation or run the entire system themselves. I don't understand the reason that they keep some routes in-house and contract out others. It's this split that I don't understand and was asking about.
 

TrainChasers

Well-Known Member
Are these issues significantly worse with the DME and other routes operated by Mears? I can understand why Disney would want to make it somebody else's problem to own and operate a bus fleet. But doesn't Disney own and operate the park to park, park to hotel, and other on-site routes? It would seem to make more sense to either contract out the entire operation or run the entire system themselves. I don't understand the reason that they keep some routes in-house and contract out others. It's this split that I don't understand and was asking about.

Well Mears was already operating the service for a fee, so Mears already had the busses and drivers and other logistics up and running. That was probably part of the decision.
 

peter11435

Well-Known Member
Are these issues significantly worse with the DME and other routes operated by Mears? I can understand why Disney would want to make it somebody else's problem to own and operate a bus fleet. But doesn't Disney own and operate the park to park, park to hotel, and other on-site routes? It would seem to make more sense to either contract out the entire operation or run the entire system themselves. I don't understand the reason that they keep some routes in-house and contract out others. It's this split that I don't understand and was asking about.
There’s several factors. On property vs off. Existing airport contracts. Requirements of a very different style fleet. Cost and logistics.
 
Additionally, DME has peaks and valleys in ridership throughout the year that don’t exist in the routes Disney currently operates in house. This means that during peaks nearly ever bus Mears owns is in service, while the rest of the time it’s just a handful. With an operation that large (peaks can get as high as 25,000/day), it would be a massive headache for Disney to do in house. The reason why Mears can manage it and keep it cost effective is by using their drivers and equipment working on other contracts when DME/DCL slow down
 
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admiralDax

Member
Source? I’m not saying Disney gets coke free as a fact, I’ve heard they get it free or next to free. The syrup that is. I’m not talking about bottled products.

I think Virgin is trying to do many things... but if Virgin wants a stop at Disney, they maybe need to offer Disney something in return? Like an airport transfer service. Lol. No Virgin isn’t trying to get into that business... but if it gets them what they want... they’ll do it.
There was an article in the Orlando Sentinel some years ago that did some math and tried to show that after Coke pays Disney for advertising and sponsorship(s), and Disney pays Coke for their product, it was almost a break-even, prompting the idea that Disney gets Coke products (syrup) for free. But in reality, Disney pays Coke a bulk rate for the syrup. I'm sure it's about as low as Coke will go because of the quantity. I tried to locate the article but failed so this is just my opinion then.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The amount of money that both Disney and Virgin can bring to bear will overcome any political barriers. Its called lining pockets. How do you think Disney got God like control over the Florida Project?

Stops along the route allow people to move about. That means more money for everyone. True Disney may not like having people use transit to visit other surrounding areas. But it will make money. If both companies are doing this then they are past the feasibility studies and they have been collaborating for years behind closed doors.

What we are seeing is years of work. The very tip of the iceberg. Nobody knows how deep this goes unless they are a part of it. Especially with UNI saying they highly support it.

The future of transportation is intermodal transport. I used to work for my state's department of transportation. And even I underestimated its importance.
Florida in the 1960s is not the federal government today.

There is a difference between the feasibility of the Tampa expansion and your proposed transit plan.

The plans are not a secret. Virgin has submitted public documents to the Florida Department of Transportation because they wish to use the existing right-of-way along I-4.

So? This is a transit system that links a majority of the major cities in the state. Having a station at Disney world doesn’t make it tourist oriented. Said station doesn’t require federal or local funds either.
I wasn’t talking about Virgin building their stops, but the idea of them building additional stops at tourist destinations and local governments then building their transit around those tourist destinations

Is the government of the State of Florida considered a "Local government"? If the train line goes across multiple "Local governments", does this matter? Would it be fair to say that a significant of people travelling within a transit system, particularly in Florida, might be classified as "tourists"? Is the possibility of the train limited exclusively to non-tourist oriented travel, because then it is likely be underused and bypass a significant revenue stream.
I am not familiar with all of the details but the state also counts as local. The general rule is the federal funds have to be used to serve locals and not tourists. This is why so many tourist areas have transit systems that are kind of wonky and don’t seem to go where everyone is going, to avoid being rejected for funding over serving tourists even though all the locals work there.

Well Mears was already operating the service for a fee, so Mears already had the busses and drivers and other logistics up and running. That was probably part of the decision.
Mears also has significant political clout in the area. Contracting to them means they are not going to oppose the system.
 

TrainChasers

Well-Known Member
I wasn’t talking about Virgin building their stops, but the idea of them building additional stops at tourist destinations and local governments then building their transit around those tourist destinations

Who suggested that? Besides Lynx already serves Disney so there must not be a problem with that.

Edit - oh I see the suggestion your were referring to now. Talking about other tourist stopes.
 
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UCF

Active Member
Some slight non-movement on this topic: Brightline and FDOT/CFX/other entities extended their negotiation period for an additional 90 days before trying to come to an agreement. FDOT says Brightline's current plans were inadequate for them to figure out how Brightline's plans for the corridor will impact the construction of I-4 in this same territory. They likely need to figure out if and exactly where the train is really entering Disney's property within 90 days in order to get it leased (or else they will need another extension, which seems likely). So with some luck, hopefully we'll hear some news in March.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0191227-oeqfxbimrndorbi6bbu745ukwy-story.html
 

Victor Kelly

Well-Known Member
Some slight non-movement on this topic: Brightline and FDOT/CFX/other entities extended their negotiation period for an additional 90 days before trying to come to an agreement. FDOT says Brightline's current plans were inadequate for them to figure out how Brightline's plans for the corridor will impact the construction of I-4 in this same territory. They likely need to figure out if and exactly where the train is really entering Disney's property within 90 days in order to get it leased (or else they will need another extension, which seems likely). So with some luck, hopefully we'll hear some news in March.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0191227-oeqfxbimrndorbi6bbu745ukwy-story.html
A small movement. The whole Disney property thing is the issue.
 

imarc

Well-Known Member
If anyone is taking the drive out towards Cape Canaveral, land clearing along the Beachline is visible near Innovation Way. The Innovation Way overpass was built to accommodate the train.

Is that also what they're doing along the south side of 528 between 436 and Narcoossee?

I wonder how they're going to handle it around the 417 exchange. There is new housing right there that really compresses that space and they need to continue that 3rd lane to the exit.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member

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