BLACKFISH

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JPatton

Active Member
Original Poster
And that was one of my issues with the documentary -- it has a very narrow view of the ethical issue of animals in captivity. Is it more ethical to keep large sharks in aquariums? They aren't expected to perform, but they're kept in a relatively confined space.

Gabriela Cowperthwaite did not set out to make a film about the "ethical issue of animals in captivity."

A performing orca killed its trainer. She simply asked, "Why?"

The subject of sharks in aquariums is a different movie that someone else can make.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Gabriela Cowperthwaite did not set out to make a film about the "ethical issue of animals in captivity."

A performing orca killed its trainer. She simply asked, "Why?"

The subject of sharks in aquariums is a different movie that someone else can make.
And yet, she formed a conclusion.

She edited that in.

The last few clips...after an editing roller coaster...

Lets review the clips of about 15 minutes in from the end...after just talking about a park incident with sad people with subtitles...who must be abused wage slaves, because they don't speak english and they are sad (which is the implication with the editing).

First, a damning accusation that it was Sea World's fault from an "OSHA Expert" (no, he's not a representative from OSHA, he was a whale researcher called upon as an OSHA witness. One of a list of people called upon during the hearings. He is not THE expert, nor the SOLE expert. And, he doesn't represent OSHA in any way.

But, the film doesn't clarify that, does it. Rather, it presents him as something more than a Whale Researcher. Here is a guy who is an "OSHA" guy. Also, even if he was an official from OSHA, OSHA has no jurisdiction there.

It's conflating the issue. As I stated before.

I really don't want to break down this movie, it's too painfully obvious...but if you make me, I will.

Just let it go. The movie was well put together, it was well produced, and overall, it's crap.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Gabriela Cowperthwaite did not set out to make a film about the "ethical issue of animals in captivity."

A performing orca killed its trainer. She simply asked, "Why?"

The subject of sharks in aquariums is a different movie that someone else can make.
I'll add...first, I don't care how silly her name is. I give her movie props where it is due, and criticize it where it is stupid (not silly, stupid).

And, this is coming from the man with dolphins in his avatar...

Not that I don't have one too.

I assume I am also part of the "oppression" of marine life?
 

OFTeric

Well-Known Member
Gabriela Cowperthwaite did not set out to make a film about the "ethical issue of animals in captivity."

A performing orca killed its trainer. She simply asked, "Why?"

The subject of sharks in aquariums is a different movie that someone else can make.

So when is she making a film about the Elephant who just killed it's trainer at a Zoo in Missouri in October?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/12/john-bradford-elephant-de_n_4088681.html

She profited off a sensational death. And it is repugnant.
 

CaptainessKylie

Active Member
Ok I finally gave in and watched Blackfish 2 days ago and I have finally stopped laughing at it enough to type.

What the bloody hell did I just watch and why are people referring to it as a documentary, it will furthermore be known as a Mockumentary in my book.

I could literally pull apart that thing scene by scene and show how flawed it is but I won't. I decided at 5 years old when I was picked to be a part of the shamu show that I was going to be a killer whale trainer. Whatever happened. My dad wanted to make sure I was well researched in my future ambition so regularly updated me with documentaries and reports (didn't even have dial up internet at that point). I had always been well aware of Tilli's presence at the SeaLand death of Keltie. I was always aware that the 2 female pregnant females. I remember watching a documentary on sky one were they went over the injury where the whale landed on the trainer and then delved further into the captivity history. There were eye witnesses then that said that Tilli stayed well away the other side of the pool thrashing around no where near the others. I can't find this documentary now for love nor money I have tried!

So the two women they used: what the hell kind of disrespect was that? They giggled their way through their reporting of someone's death. Those huge smiles on their face. I was so embarrassed by them, I couldn't work out why they had used those two women, it was really distrubing to watch them smile about seeing a young girl die.

Ok now the bald trainer; the "i only stayed because no one else would care for Tilli" trainer. Let me get this straight; you are saying that Dawn wasn't a good trainer? you are complaining that they disrespected her by blaming her but within a breath you then say you only stayed becayse only you would care for that whale? get your head out of your butt. you forgot to mention that you only stayed because you loved your job (and were getting a pay check) you loved Tilli (and needed to pay your rent)

Ok now curly haired obnoxious trainer, (did anyone else want to see their employee files and see why they were so scorned and if they quit or were fired?) When she said she was upset sea world didn't tell her about the previous 70 injuries she didn't know these until after. YEAH RIGHT. see above, I've known about these injuries since I was 5 (I'm even surprised they didn't use the san diego footage where the orca is dragging the trainer down then jumping on him when he is at the surface - that one scared me. So I really can't believe this woman! You are admitting to a global audience that you cared so little about the whales you were caring for that you didn't even take the time to do any work research? ok. sure.
 

CaptainessKylie

Active Member
Ok now my main issue with the captivity shizz (btw massive lover of orcas, have tattoos of them, visit sea world regularly, been saving since 14 to go do a big whale watching/kayaking trip in canada)
Why is keeping a whale in captivity any different from keeping a dog in your home? Is it because it happened so long ago when it became acceptable that it no longer counts?

Orcas like Tilli were taken away from their mums: Ok because you have your dog, it's mum, it's dad, it's brothers and sisters from it's litter, its entire pack? you didn't go in there and take a social animal and turn it into a lone animal, let it cry through the night at 6-8 weeks old because you had taken it away from its mum?

Orcas like Tilli should be free to swim in the ocean not kept in a concrete bath tub: Because your dog has the acres of land it would love to run wild over? you take it to an enclosed dog park for an hour a day if it's lucky. You crate it and make it sleep where you want it to sleep at night, go where you want it to go during the day. Yeah that's different?

They shouldn't have to perform tricks for food: Paw, sit, stay, close, beg, pee outside, pee in this spot...all little tricks aren't they. They get little rewards when they are good and they don't when they are bad. and even when they are good you don't give them the meat they would have got in the wild no you give them manufactured food ok!

One orca killed a human, they should all be released: ok several pet dogs have killed several humans, when are they getting released?

I want to note that I am totally for pets and I am totally for sea world and the animals in captivity. But really, the only people against animal captivity that I think have a good enough opinion that I will listen to are the ones that are totally against it, not the ones that say hey I can keep my dog like this and my bird in that cage and my goldfish in that bowl but condem you for keeping that orca in that tank. me no likey hypocrites.
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
No, it dilutes the message.

It's, as you well put it, "snuff" films like this that make the underlying REAL discussion more difficult, as they insert half-truthes, misrepresentations and emotions into a more complex issue.

Orca trapping is no longer legal, hasn't been for a long time. So the film didn't serve that purpose. So, what was it's message exactly? Except to garnish self-serving attention for the production team?

I watched it, months ago. It was a well done movie. Well edited, good emotional music. The production values were top notch, and really tug at the heart strings.

All that being said, there are a few telling points. I highly doubted that the more "loyal" interviewees statements were not reviewed by a writer for alliteration and review. They were too scripted, too well stated, and fit far too well to tie together the "story" of the film.

The one that stuck out to me the most was towards the end of the movie where they had interviews with someone a bit defensive of SeaWorld and their mission...and the answers to his questions (in defense of Sea World) were cut off, to be "countered" by others. I won't review the whole movie at this point to get his name...but I can if you care to debate.

The fact is, like a Mike Moore movie, this is extremely well done, and has some excellent points, but misses any real social value, because it has no solution. It doesn't foster discussion, it is merely accusation.

Meaningful change does not come through accusation and rhetoric alone. It comes through understanding and discussion. If only accusation and rhetoric is used, then all that happens is tyranny of the prevailing opinion.

Some are happy with that. I, personally, am not.

Had the show ended with a "Here's what we suggest for the Orca's" moment...I would have felt differently.

But, it didn't. Therefore, it's a hit piece intent on basking it's creators and blind followers in their own "glory" for being "morally" correct for an issue they have created for themselves.
Excuse me, but Sea Workd knew this film was being made, was contacted for interviews to express their point of view, and surprise, surprise, surprise, they refused.
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
And yet, she formed a conclusion.

She edited that in.

The last few clips...after an editing roller coaster...

Lets review the clips of about 15 minutes in from the end...after just talking about a park incident with sad people with subtitles...who must be abused wage slaves, because they don't speak english and they are sad (which is the implication with the editing).

First, a damning accusation that it was Sea World's fault from an "OSHA Expert" (no, he's not a representative from OSHA, he was a whale researcher called upon as an OSHA witness. One of a list of people called upon during the hearings. He is not THE expert, nor the SOLE expert. And, he doesn't represent OSHA in any way.

But, the film doesn't clarify that, does it. Rather, it presents him as something more than a Whale Researcher. Here is a guy who is an "OSHA" guy. Also, even if he was an official from OSHA, OSHA has no jurisdiction there.

It's conflating the issue. As I stated before.

I really don't want to break down this movie, it's too painfully obvious...but if you make me, I will.

Just let it go. The movie was well put together, it was well produced, and overall, it's crap.
Ahhh, "crap" is it? That sort of film that gets one star reviews and is not nominated for multiple major awards? Yeah, that describes Blackfish all right.

Oh, wait.............
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
If an unknown filmmaker was doing an expose on Broadway, would you volunteer your time knowing they were out to make you look bad?
Sure would, as long as the facts were on my side. I'm not sure what Sea World had to lose by being interviewed as long as they had all their ducks in a row.
 

BuddyThomas

Well-Known Member
That's my point. How would you KNOW that the filmmaker was going to use facts? How would you KNOW that your words and actions wouldn't get twisted?
Yes, I hear you, but as long as everything that comes out of my mouth is the God's honest truth, I have nothing to worry about. If the truth is on my side, I'm fine. I get what you are saying. Editing can do wonders, but if I have nothing to hide, bring it on.

Anyway, I think that ultimately, people on this thread mainly have their hearts in the right place, whether you are of the "whales do not belong in concrete tanks" or the "Sea World does so much for animals" camp.

There is common ground here and while I do not think my debate skills are expert enough to change someone's mind, I just hope you all might keep a slightly, slightly open mind as to whether it is a great idea to keep some of the most intelligent creatures on this planet (scientifically proven -- they are not domesticated dogs or cats) locked up in pools for tourists.

I don't want Sea World to shut down. I want them to prosper and continue their conservation efforts but as has been said here time and again by those in my camp, the whale show has got to go.
 

919Florida

Well-Known Member
Why do people have to keep attacking SeaWorld for not being in this "documentary" it was a loose loose situation for them. If they don't appear in the film the director will point it out and say they have something to hide and so on if they were interviewed and in the film they would have edited it up to know end to make SeaWorld out to be the bad guy. Gabriel has no intentions of ever showing one positive thing about SeaWorld and her more recent interview where she says she is inspired by the musical acts canceling proves that. So stop saying SeaWorld was bad for not being in it. I don't blame them one bit for not wanting to be a part of this
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
Yes, I hear you, but as long as everything that comes out of my mouth is the God's honest truth, I have nothing to worry about. If the truth is on my side, I'm fine. I get what you are saying. Editing can do wonders, but if I have nothing to hide, bring it on.

Editing could make your interview say whatever the filmmaker wanted you to say. Doesn't matter how truthful you are during the interview. Film is an inherently manipulative medium. It's no wonder SeaWorld declined to be interviewed.
 

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
Orcas like Tilli were taken away from their mums: Ok because you have your dog, it's mum, it's dad, it's brothers and sisters from it's litter, its entire pack? you didn't go in there and take a social animal and turn it into a lone animal, let it cry through the night at 6-8 weeks old because you had taken it away from its mum?

Orcas like Tilli should be free to swim in the ocean not kept in a concrete bath tub: Because your dog has the acres of land it would love to run wild over? you take it to an enclosed dog park for an hour a day if it's lucky. You crate it and make it sleep where you want it to sleep at night, go where you want it to go during the day. Yeah that's different?

On these two points, at least, the filmmakers may have a point. I'm not an orca expert, but there are certain species of animals that are inherently more social and family-oriented than others. Young Florida Scrub-jays (a bird) stay with the family unit for a number of years. Perhaps orcas are hard-wired to be more group-oriented than dogs. The film doesn't do a good job explaining this.

As for the space limitations, some animals need more acreage to roam than others. Again, my expertise lies with birds, but there are raptors that hunt over greater distances than songbirds, which stay in relatively small spaces. Perhaps your average domestic canine don't "need" miles and miles to roam. Again, the film doesn't do a good job explaining how the orcas might differ in this regard from other marine life.

It also doesn't explain how orcas born in captivity differ from orcas captured in the wild on these points.

But, then again, nuance doesn't seem to be the strong point of Blackfish, does it?
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
'I am an attorney practicing in Hartford, Connecticut. A particular focus of mine is the legal needs of the amusement and tourism industry.'


It's a piece by an attorney advertising himself on his website to the amusement park industry.
Haven't you been keeping score?

Former Sea World employees turned activists who contradict your previously-held beliefs: BIASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lawyer who represents amusement parks tearing apart a film critical of an amusement park? Seems legit.

Ok now my main issue with the captivity shizz (btw massive lover of orcas, have tattoos of them, visit sea world regularly, been saving since 14 to go do a big whale watching/kayaking trip in canada)
Why is keeping a whale in captivity any different from keeping a dog in your home? Is it because it happened so long ago when it became acceptable that it no longer counts?
Dogs are domesticated animals; they are genetically distinct from wolves. Friendliness and compatibility with humans have been artificially selected for for literally thousands of years. Orcas are wild animals.
 
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