Big Thunder Mountain Railroad vs Pirates of the Caribbean

[celluloid]

I often wonder about the Original Part, I mean. PoTC's large change came in the "We want the Red Head" part which depicts human trafficking along with the less serious, fat shaming. Selling women for gold? Yes, I know it was funny back when society wasn't as rightfully focused on the difference between right and wrong. I was upset as well until I realized that my daughters are women and the idea of them being sold off to anyone kind of gags me now. So I am happy with the depiction of that Red Head as being equally as "bad a$$" as the rest of the Pirates. That part became less a joke and more of a glorification of what may or may not have been an actual process. I know others do not agree, but that is how I am feeling at this point. I liked the addition of Capt. Jack (one of the most realistic physical depiction of the movie character Disney has ever done) and I don't think it took anything away from the storyline at all. In fact, I think it gave it an even clearer storyline. Change isn't always a bad thing.

I don't want my sons as well as daughters involved in looting and burning down villages. That is the issue. Pirates are not good guys.
The change is awful.

Adding Jack in fact changed a lot. Now we are depicting pirates as antihero or heroes instead of pirates, and he is there more frequently than any other particular pirate and not in the same style. He and the other style changes date the attraction more than any other change, as now the movie changes tie it directly as an attraction based on the series.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

The Disneyland version is 15 minutes long vs. the 8 minutes at WDW. But even before I rode the one at Disneyland I always called Pirates of WDW my favorite ride ever (maybe along with Haunted Mansion). And I've always thought Thunder Mountain was the best coaster out of any in Disney, but that being said this is Pirates. I am just surprised the poll is tied.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

I’m shocked that this is so close. PotC has massive, elaborate set pieces and is overall excellent. BTMRR is great too but nothing beats Pirates.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

I often wonder about the Original Part, I mean. PoTC's large change came in the "We want the Red Head" part which depicts human trafficking along with the less serious, fat shaming. Selling women for gold? Yes, I know it was funny back when society wasn't as rightfully focused on the difference between right and wrong. I was upset as well until I realized that my daughters are women and the idea of them being sold off to anyone kind of gags me now. So I am happy with the depiction of that Red Head as being equally as "bad a$$" as the rest of the Pirates. That part became less a joke and more of a glorification of what may or may not have been an actual process. I know others do not agree, but that is how I am feeling at this point. I liked the addition of Capt. Jack (one of the most realistic physical depiction of the movie character Disney has ever done) and I don't think it took anything away from the storyline at all. In fact, I think it gave it an even clearer storyline. Change isn't always a bad thing.

I think this is the problem with our current generation. They take things too seriously. By the way, when it comes to human trafficking do we really think we live in a society today that knows right from wrong? P. Diddy anyone? That's in 2024, and nothing will come out of it. Human trafficking is a serious crime and most people today ignore it. Most people are too distracted to notice the signs. But you never walked out of Pirates back then and wanted to round up a bunch of red heads and sell them. The point of Pirates is that these guys are hooligans. They are drunkards, looters, fighters and in a way arsonists. We enjoy the ride because we can laugh at it but it was never meant to be taken seriously. It is the same with Country Bears and the old version of songs that had some things in it. It was literally meant to be comedy, nothing more.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I think this is the problem with our current generation. They take things too seriously. By the way, when it comes to human trafficking do we really think we live in a society today that knows right from wrong? P. Diddy anyone? That's in 2024, and nothing will come out of it. Human trafficking is a serious crime and most people today ignore it. Most people are too distracted to notice the signs. But you never walked out of Pirates back then and wanted to round up a bunch of red heads and sell them. The point of Pirates is that these guys are hooligans. They are drunkards, looters, fighters and in a way arsonists. We enjoy the ride because we can laugh at it but it was never meant to be taken seriously. It is the same with Country Bears and the old version of songs that had some things in it. It was literally meant to be comedy, nothing more.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I can guarantee that anyone that currently sees Pirates for the first time have the same feeling for it that we had when we first saw it. It is one scene that delt with the auctioning of humans and it is only important to us because we saw it the old way first. It means nothing that it is missing because they, for the most part, never saw the original. It is just our problem because, yes, we just thought it was funny and no, we didn't go out and try and round up red heads. But that was then and this is now. It not only symbolizes human trafficking, but also slavery. Neither one are particularly funny now. Why, because we are aware of those things that currently exist or did exist in the past. The rest of it depicts pillaging and drunkenness but no actual harm is depicted or seen. It's a different world.

Now I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but if the more common opinion is, yes, it was intended as a joke, but todays world is a whole lot different than it was in 1967 and we need to take off our blinders and recognize the less than funny that depiction is and decide, like I did, that the depiction of a strong "bad a$$" woman is more with todays depiction of a women's roll and quite probably the women, of that time, as well. Where was the protest when they switched the scenes where pirates were chasing woman to woman chasing the pirates. Wasn't that funny when we first saw it or is that something that I witnessed because I am older than dirt. If you never saw it the way it was before than you know first hand how insignificant one scene is to an attraction of that size.

 

[Hockey89]

I don't necessarily disagree, but I can guarantee that anyone that currently sees Pirates for the first time have the same feeling for it that we had when we first saw it. It is one scene that delt with the auctioning of humans and it is only important to us because we saw it the old way first. It means nothing that it is missing because they, for the most part, never saw the original. It is just our problem because, yes, we just thought it was funny and no, we didn't go out and try and round up red heads. But that was then and this is now. It not only symbolizes human trafficking, but also slavery. Neither one are particularly funny now. Why, because we are aware of those things that currently exist or did exist in the past. The rest of it depicts pillaging and drunkenness but no actual harm is depicted or seen. It's a different world.

Now I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but if the more common opinion is, yes, it was intended as a joke, but todays world is a whole lot different than it was in 1967 and we need to take off our blinders and recognize the less than funny that depiction is and decide, like I did, that the depiction of a strong "bad a$$" woman is more with todays depiction of a women's roll and quite probably the women, of that time, as well. Where was the protest when they switched the scenes where pirates were chasing woman to woman chasing the pirates. Wasn't that funny when we first saw it or is that something that I witnessed because I am older than dirt. If you never saw it the way it was before than you know first hand how insignificant one scene is to an attraction of that size.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

I don't necessarily disagree, but I can guarantee that anyone that currently sees Pirates for the first time have the same feeling for it that we had when we first saw it. It is one scene that delt with the auctioning of humans and it is only important to us because we saw it the old way first. It means nothing that it is missing because they, for the most part, never saw the original. It is just our problem because, yes, we just thought it was funny and no, we didn't go out and try and round up red heads. But that was then and this is now. It not only symbolizes human trafficking, but also slavery. Neither one are particularly funny now. Why, because we are aware of those things that currently exist or did exist in the past. The rest of it depicts pillaging and drunkenness but no actual harm is depicted or seen. It's a different world.

Now I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, but if the more common opinion is, yes, it was intended as a joke, but todays world is a whole lot different than it was in 1967 and we need to take off our blinders and recognize the less than funny that depiction is and decide, like I did, that the depiction of a strong "bad a$$" woman is more with todays depiction of a women's roll and quite probably the women, of that time, as well. Where was the protest when they switched the scenes where pirates were chasing woman to woman chasing the pirates. Wasn't that funny when we first saw it or is that something that I witnessed because I am older than dirt. If you never saw it the way it was before than you know first hand how insignificant one scene is to an attraction of that size.

It doesn't change the ride per se, but these little things are stuff that add up to something like Splash Mountain being removed. A woman chasing a pirate who is stealing is funny. The pirates chasing the women, well, still funny. It is chaotic and meant to be. We take things too literally these days. I think we are as blind as we ever have been when it comes to slavery and/or human trafficking to be honest, nothing has changed that way. But I think as a society we tend to pretend we are more sophisticated and such these days.

Bottom line is this, it comes down to "if you give an inch they take a mile" mindset. One of the greatest attractions in the history of Disney was replaced over political correctness and manufactured anger. Not to mention outside of "When You Wish Upon a Star" there was probably not a more well known Disney song than "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Da". Both are gone as if they never existed and it is too bad because they are both miles better than anything Disney does today. That's the issue I have with these nagging complaints. It leads to much worse. Granted the execs at the top changed Splash Mountain because they knew it would save them money, but the point of the matter is they let people think it was over this political correctness and there are far too many people in the Disney company today that actually have this nanny state mentality with the classics. We need to be careful what we wish for.

 

[Goofyernmost]

It doesn't change the ride per se, but these little things are stuff that add up to something like Splash Mountain being removed. A woman chasing a pirate who is stealing is funny. The pirates chasing the women, well, still funny. It is chaotic and meant to be. We take things too literally these days. I think we are as blind as we ever have been when it comes to slavery and/or human trafficking to be honest, nothing has changed that way. But I think as a society we tend to pretend we are more sophisticated and such these days.

Bottom line is this, it comes down to "if you give an inch they take a mile" mindset. One of the greatest attractions in the history of Disney was replaced over political correctness and manufactured anger. Not to mention outside of "When You Wish Upon a Star" there was probably not a more well known Disney song than "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Da". Both are gone as if they never existed and it is too bad because they are both miles better than anything Disney does today. That's the issue I have with these nagging complaints. It leads to much worse. Granted the execs at the top changed Splash Mountain because they knew it would save them money, but the point of the matter is they let people think it was over this political correctness and there are far too many people in the Disney company today that actually have this nanny state mentality with the classics. We need to be careful what we wish for.

Who knows, that might be true, but times change, attitudes change, we as a society change. Sometimes for the good and way to many times for the bad. Yes, they buckled on many things. I objected a number of time about Splash Mountain being changed. I objected due to the reasons that were given. It was another twisted reality. It was mistakenly portrayed as from the movie "Song of the South". Although that movie did include the Brer' story, it wasn't originated with Disney. Those stories were established in the late 1800's and it was about black heritage and not suppression. As usual, it was spun to be a negative when in truth it was part of the way of trying to determine right and wrong and the musings of a wise old, uneducated black man. Guess which race won that argument.

Splash and Pirates both expressed attitudes that existed at the time of their creation. Most of the depiction were from folklore and imagined situations. The new version might actually be more accurate then the old one, but in either case, it is just a part of a fantasy ride in a damn theme park. Neither depiction is that important but why showcase a situation that is still happening today in an attempt to find something humorous in a depiction of something that currently still exists.

With that said, I am aware that there is no way that any of what I have stated is going to be mind changing for anyone. But, even though I was never previously vocal on my approval of the new depiction it is how I feel and after seeing PoC from the very beginning of it's existence in WDW. I cannot say that I have lost any of my enjoyment of the ride and feel that the auction scene change did not alter most peoples enjoyment of it. I see the inclusion of Capt. Jack as a plus because it is some small part of the attraction that people living today can identify and understand. With that I'll end my part of this discussion.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

Who knows, that might be true, but times change, attitudes change, we as a society change. Sometimes for the good and way to many times for the bad. Yes, they buckled on many things. I objected a number of time about Splash Mountain being changed. I objected due to the reasons that were given. It was another twisted reality. It was mistakenly portrayed as from the movie "Song of the South". Although that movie did include the Brer' story, it wasn't originated with Disney. Those stories were established in the late 1800's and it was about black heritage and not suppression. As usual, it was spun to be a negative when in truth it was part of the way of trying to determine right and wrong and the musings of a wise old, uneducated black man. Guess which race won that argument.

Splash and Pirates both expressed attitudes that existed at the time of their creation. Most of the depiction were from folklore and imagined situations. The new version might actually be more accurate then the old one, but in either case, it is just a part of a fantasy ride in a damn theme park. Neither depiction is that important but why showcase a situation that is still happening today in an attempt to find something humorous in a depiction of something that currently still exists.

With that said, I am aware that there is no way that any of what I have stated is going to be mind changing for anyone. But, even though I was never previously vocal on my approval of the new depiction it is how I feel and after seeing PoC from the very beginning of it's existence in WDW. I cannot say that I have lost any of my enjoyment of the ride and feel that the auction scene change did not alter most peoples enjoyment of it. I see the inclusion of Capt. Jack as a plus because it is some small part of the attraction that people living today can identify and understand. With that I'll end my part of this discussion.

I don't think Pirates is worse per se without the "red head" scene. Far too much to appreciate otherwise in the ride to have that be a back breaker. Adding Sparrow, I get it, that movie was epic and very popular. Disney hit one of the park there. And the 4 sequels that followed did something that rarely happens, they didn't disappoint either. They were all good movies, all 5 of them. Give the original one the nod, but still good movies. Because of that they had to add Sparrow in there. He's too popular not to at least have him show up. I am just concerned that the more.....................uhhh, how do I say it..............modern types have very little appreciation in story telling and more focus on whether or not they check off diversity boxes or do whatever makes people not offended. It is those little things that add up, and because of this Splash Mountain is gone. I mean think about it, this was a ride that you assumed would be there until the cows came home and now it isn't. These little changes to appease people despite millions going on the ride as it is with nary a complaint is not the direction I like Disney taking. And the loud minority tends to be heard with this.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I don't think Pirates is worse per se without the "red head" scene. Far too much to appreciate otherwise in the ride to have that be a back breaker. Adding Sparrow, I get it, that movie was epic and very popular. Disney hit one of the park there. And the 4 sequels that followed did something that rarely happens, they didn't disappoint either. They were all good movies, all 5 of them. Give the original one the nod, but still good movies. Because of that they had to add Sparrow in there. He's too popular not to at least have him show up. I am just concerned that the more.....................uhhh, how do I say it..............modern types have very little appreciation in story telling and more focus on whether or not they check off diversity boxes or do whatever makes people not offended. It is those little things that add up, and because of this Splash Mountain is gone. I mean think about it, this was a ride that you assumed would be there until the cows came home and now it isn't. These little changes to appease people despite millions going on the ride as it is with nary a complaint is not the direction I like Disney taking. And the loud minority tends to be heard with this.

I agree, but Splash has been talked about for at least a decade. The only reason it wasn't changed when they first let the rumor circulate was because they couldn't find a way to use the existing building and track in a way that could be, at least, half way interesting. They finally found the Princess and the Frog and they could proceed. Tiana's Bayou Adventure could be able to connect to the water ride and nothing was going to stand in their way. I'm sorry that Splash is missing because I liked it a lot and in spite of hating drops like that it kept me coming back again and again. I haven't had the chance to see Tiana in person, but from what I've seen that would also draw me in. I guess it's just me, but I like change. Change is what keeps all of us alive. I remember when my friends and I would work, for credit, in the cafeteria scrapping out plates into the garbage singing "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah". I will never forget that song but the world will continue to turn even if no one else does.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

I agree, but Splash has been talked about for at least a decade. The only reason it wasn't changed when they first let the rumor circulate was because they couldn't find a way to use the existing building and track in a way that could be, at least, half way interesting. They finally found the Princess and the Frog and they could proceed. Tiana's Bayou Adventure could be able to connect to the water ride and nothing was going to stand in their way. I'm sorry that Splash is missing because I liked it a lot and in spite of hating drops like that it kept me coming back again and again. I haven't had the chance to see Tiana in person, but from what I've seen that would also draw me in. I guess it's just me, but I like change. Change is what keeps all of us alive. I remember when my friends and I would work, for credit, in the cafeteria scrapping out plates into the garbage singing "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah". I will never forget that song but the world will continue to turn even if no one else does.

The issue I have is not that Tiana got a ride. That was at least a decent enough movie with a decent enough following to get some sort of attraction. It isn't a must by any means as it wasn't THAT popular (eg. Bambi, Jungle Book, Mary Poppins among others don't have an attraction) but they could have built one. But what Disney is doing is not utilizing their space properly, at least at WDW where they have tons of it. You can't take away one of your greatest attractions and replace it with one that is inferior. Tiana would be a good ride and probably still is, but word on the street is that it is not a good substitute for Splash. So it is always going to be compared to his superior predecessor. If you polled people prior to Splash being taken away and asked if they felt it should be gone the overwhelming majority would have thought you were crazy for asking. Modern Disney is not even listening to the fans.

 

[Goofyernmost]

The issue I have is not that Tiana got a ride. That was at least a decent enough movie with a decent enough following to get some sort of attraction. It isn't a must by any means as it wasn't THAT popular (eg. Bambi, Jungle Book, Mary Poppins among others don't have an attraction) but they could have built one. But what Disney is doing is not utilizing their space properly, at least at WDW where they have tons of it. You can't take away one of your greatest attractions and replace it with one that is inferior. Tiana would be a good ride and probably still is, but word on the street is that it is not a good substitute for Splash. So it is always going to be compared to his superior predecessor. If you polled people prior to Splash being taken away and asked if they felt it should be gone the overwhelming majority would have thought you were crazy for asking. Modern Disney is not even listening to the fans.

I agree with all but one thing. It is not always going to be compared to Splash. We will compare it because that is what we had looked at for many years, me since it was first opened. However by the next generation no one will have seen the original and Splash will not even be thought of in their minds. Disney and as far as all Theme Parks go, they have to change up because of what happened to EPCOT Ctr. That was a great park within a year of it's opening. The ideas were new the style of presentation was different and the theme was edutainment. The problem was that since there were a limited number of actual attractions many people including myself only saw it as a memory boost and not something new and exciting. Then it became a place were people said... "Hey, I'm here on vacation, I've already been to school". It was still great but only to a lot of new visitors, but with the advent of the internet, it was all old news. I loved EPCOT and it was my favorite park for a long time and then I started to just get bored with seeing the same thing over and over. Then many people, like myself, stopped making it a point to go to them. We'd still go but not on every visit. The lines dwindled down a lot and it lacked the sparkle it had when we first saw it. I other words it no longer paid for itself unless they were pushing food and alcohol, which brought the wonderful EPCOT Ctr. down to a "Drink around the world" place mostly happening in the World Showcase portion of it.

As for Tiana, yes they could have done one of it's own. However, think about the storyline that they used now then try and put that in something other than the flume ride. Say like small world, a flat unexciting slow boat ride through the story. It would be done in about fifteen seconds. You couldn't have two flume rides in the same park. It wouldn't fit in EPCOT. Maybe DHS but that turned more into a more action type park over the years. Certainly doesn't fit in Animal Kingdom unless the Frog were to take center stage.

They had been getting pressure for a number of years to get rid of Splash because so many, thanks to Disney themselves, connected it to "Song of the South" instead of the much older Uncle Remus books from a hundred years before. They saw Tiana as a perfect opportunity to take a Disney created Theme and fit it into a place where a story that couldn't stand alone, became a nice story, with a flume ride attached giving it a few thrills. And it seems to have worked at least for now. What's done is done, I intend to enjoy it for what it is and just move on. It's not life or death.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

I agree with all but one thing. It is not always going to be compared to Splash. We will compare it because that is what we had looked at for many years, me since it was first opened. However by the next generation no one will have seen the original and Splash will not even be thought of in their minds. Disney and as far as all Theme Parks go, they have to change up because of what happened to EPCOT Ctr. That was a great park within a year of it's opening. The ideas were new the style of presentation was different and the theme was edutainment. The problem was that since there were a limited number of actual attractions many people including myself only saw it as a memory boost and not something new and exciting. Then it became a place were people said... "Hey, I'm here on vacation, I've already been to school". It was still great but only to a lot of new visitors, but with the advent of the internet, it was all old news. I loved EPCOT and it was my favorite park for a long time and then I started to just get bored with seeing the same thing over and over. Then many people, like myself, stopped making it a point to go to them. We'd still go but not on every visit. The lines dwindled down a lot and it lacked the sparkle it had when we first saw it. I other words it no longer paid for itself unless they were pushing food and alcohol, which brought the wonderful EPCOT Ctr. down to a "Drink around the world" place mostly happening in the World Showcase portion of it.

As for Tiana, yes they could have done one of it's own. However, think about the storyline that they used now then try and put that in something other than the flume ride. Say like small world, a flat unexciting slow boat ride through the story. It would be done in about fifteen seconds. You couldn't have two flume rides in the same park. It wouldn't fit in EPCOT. Maybe DHS but that turned more into a more action type park over the years. Certainly doesn't fit in Animal Kingdom unless the Frog were to take center stage.

They had been getting pressure for a number of years to get rid of Splash because so many, thanks to Disney themselves, connected it to "Song of the South" instead of the much older Uncle Remus books from a hundred years before. They saw Tiana as a perfect opportunity to take a Disney created Theme and fit it into a place where a story that couldn't stand alone, became a nice story, with a flume ride attached giving it a few thrills. And it seems to have worked at least for now. What's done is done, I intend to enjoy it for what it is and just move on. It's not life or death.

Change can work, but you don't cut out one of the best attractions you've ever built for a ride no one was asking for. That isn't smart. In 30 years my grandchildren won't ever have known about Splash Mountain. And that is too bad. It was better. Disney is supposed to keep thriving to be better, not water things down and make it worse. Why not make a Tiana ride in a boat a la Pirates of the Caribbean? There is no creativity in Disney anymore.

 

[Hockey89]

The issue I have is not that Tiana got a ride. That was at least a decent enough movie with a decent enough following to get some sort of attraction.

Following? It did terrible from a revenue standpoint. Look, we all know what happened. They wanted to do their pandering thing. They got rid of one the best rides at Disney for a movie very little people cared about and then did a terrible Job with the ride. No one and I mean no one was screaming for a Tiana ride. This is Disney in 2024.

 

[Walt Disney1955]

Following? It did terrible from a revenue standpoint. Look, we all know what happened. They wanted to do their pandering thing. They got rid of one the best rides at Disney for a movie very little people cared about and then did a terrible Job with the ride. No one and I mean no one was screaming for a Tiana ride. This is Disney in 2024.

I wasn't sure of the exact box office numbers. But it is just bad business to cut out one of your best all-time rides for one that no one asked for. This is why Universal keeps edging closer and closer to Disney's attendance numbers.