Avatar Land...think Disney regrets the idea?

DVCOwner

A Long Time DVC Member
Here is what I think is going to happen:

- Pandora will open and the crowds are going to be so large even Disney is surprised.
- The new Movie comes out and is another big box office (not as large as #1 but close).
- After both these have happen, Disney release that Pandora will expand and add a third major attraction.

This is just my guess, will have to wait and see if I am right on this one.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
simple really
avatar is a movie that has an environment conducive to a theme park setting, titanic a movie about 1500 people drowning is not
I don't know about that. I think there is actually more people interested in experiencing the world seen in Titanic than Avatar. Walking the decks of the ship and seeing the interiors is a thing a lot of people are interested in. In fact there actually was a Titanic exhibit in I Drive and also Disney Sea's SS Columbia attraction shows how something like that could be achieved in a theme park. I think both Titanic and Avatar could easily be recreated in very creative ways in a theme park setting, however I think both only have a marginal fan following.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
why does it have to be either or why not both
i ve said this before you open up a star wars park i open up a star wars, marvel and avatar park, i can guarantee you my park has many more people diversity will always win in this case
also, star wars in no way fits remotely into DAK where as Avatars central theme coincides perfectly with the theme of DAK, living in harmony with nature and conservation

It's exhausting when people don't get the nuance and nitpick.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Yes, yes, yes! I feel as though we have entered a new age of communication. The question... and the answer. After many tries, we have finally succeeded, and instead of criticizing each other's delivery, we can have a more meaningful discussion.

I think your second, third, maybe fourth, and sixth bullets represent a big lack of faith in imagineering to do something original themselves. I do not have that lack of faith, but whether you and I do or do not is indeed irrelevant. Because I think we can both agree that Bob Iger and other execs have shown that lack of faith through their words and actions (look at some of Tom Staggs's early Avatar comments when it was announced if you disagree). And since the question is whether Disney regrets their decision, those points are very very good ones. I can picture Bob and Tom still thinking Avatar provides a huge advantage in those areas. So yes, you have given a good answer, thank you!

Before, I was staring at the bottom of the mountain, wondering how we could ever reach new heights. But now we are at the top, and over the horizon I can see a whole vast land of new topics which are waiting to be debated. I see a great future.

Also, sure the ignore option is there, but I'd hate to be put on ignore for any reason, especially this. That's why I felt the need to apologize.

So it's late in my realm and I have to go. Tomorrow, I can give some reasons as to why I disagree (not personally but from Disney's perspective) with certain things you said, if you'd like. But today, I don't have time, and it's not necessary. Today, I am glad to end on a high note and start the week in a new light. You have answered the question and made my day. I hate to say it, but it is true, today will be a day long remembered.
I'm glad I made your day:) Feel free to reply and disagree. We still have a long time to go before the land opens so all we can do is discuss possibilities.

I'm not sure it's just a lack of faith in imagineering, but a general feeling that they needed a land based on IP similar to Harry Potter or Carsland as opposed to a generic land based on Australia or mythical creatures. Iger was following a trend in the industry instead of thinking outside the box. In a lot of ways it was a safe play and in line with what Iger excels at. That's another reason he probably doesn't regret it. It's so him,.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Some very good points - Avatar ticked a lot of boxes. I would add that WDW has a uniquely international clientele, and I believe I remember reading somewhere that Avatar was more of a phenomenon outside the US, like Brazil, etc. I know from the music business that Americans can have a skewed perspective about what is popular - people think if someone doesn't have huge follow-up hits in the US that they aren't popular, when they may in fact be hugely popular in Europe, Australia, etc.

And there are certainly different levels of "regret," which may be where some folks got hung up here. I don't think anyone suggested a hand-wringing, life altering regret, just more of a shouldn't have had that second piece of chocolate cake kind of regret.

Or, more apropos: I splurged on that new coat a few months ago, which seemed like a no-brainer at the time; but then I bought a new car, and that car payment would be easier if I didn't also have the credit card payment for that coat. In retrospect, I might not have gone for the coat, I might have just put that money towards the car, and then I wouldn't have had to cut out HBO and Showtime.

The coat is Avatar, the car is Star Wars.

You mentioned nothing has changed, but then referenced Star Wars at the end. In my opinion, that is what has changed. I think Star Wars more directly responded to the Harry Potter question – more precisely than Avatar did.

So if part of the motivation for avatar was a response to Harry Potter, Star Wars was a better response which made it in hindsight less necessary, at least in that one respect.

I think we are really more or less on the same page here.
If Iger went to the board and said we want to build Star Wars Land in CA and FL and they said sorry, FL is already getting Avatar so no money for Star Wars in FL I think he would be regretting Avatar big time. Luckily for all of us that didn't happen. I agree that Star Wars has the kind of mass appeal that Harry Potter has and much more of a following than Avatar. Some people will plan a visit to WDW just for Star Wars (like some did/do for Harry Potter). I definitely think SW fits better in DHS anyway. It could be argued that 2 Star Wars lands (one in DHS and one in AK) could have been built.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
No sequels coming out is a blow. But they will come out ... gives the attraction a long term future. If you can find one solitary downer over Harry Potter at Universal is that the once they finished it, only one movie was left to be released. The books are ever lasting, but the hype around those early years was unparralleled and Universal just came at the end of the ride.

At least with Avatar there is a long term hoopla over the attraction. To many people are blazay over this movie - you have to remember it's the biggest ever box office movie in all of history. Even beating Star Wars.
for now. There is still more areas from the books to revisit.
They still have the Ministry of Magic and St. Mungos.

Also the Azkaban tower and some of the areas where Voldemort put magical items (horcruxes) for safekeeping.

Then, we will get new movies and books.
 

flyerjab

Well-Known Member
I'm glad I made your day:) Feel free to reply and disagree. We still have a long time to go before the land opens so all we can do is discuss possibilities.

I'm not sure it's just a lack of faith in imagineering, but a general feeling that they needed a land based on IP similar to Harry Potter or Carsland as opposed to a generic land based on Australia or mythical creatures. Iger was following a trend in the industry instead of thinking outside the box. In a lot of ways it was a safe play and in line with what Iger excels at. That's another reason he probably doesn't regret it. It's so him,.

What is good news is that we are edging closer to one year away from opening (my belief anyway).
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Just my opinion but this has been some of the most civil dialogue ive seen on this board when a disagreement occurs
well done folks
image.jpeg
 
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No Name

Well-Known Member
@egg If people are annoyed by this back and forth they can put us both on ignore. No need to apologize for having a discussion or an argument if you prefer to call it that. Since you keep asking I'll try to answer your question. I assume this is the one you want me to try to answer:

To answer question #1, in my opinion Disney probably decided to buy the rights to Avatar for some of the following reasons and there are probably others I'm forgetting:
  • It was the highest grossing film of all time with sequels on the way
  • The deal affords Disney the opportunity to work directly with James Cameron and his Lightstorm Entertainment people as creative consultants
  • The movie was known for having stunning visual effects (especially 3D) which translate well into a theme park ride
  • The movie had a highly recognizable setting that if done correctly should be visually stunning in a theme park environment
  • The movie has some underlying themes of conservation which is one of the core themes of AK
  • AK needed an addition with several people eating rides that could be enjoyed at night as well as during the day to anchor its expansion to a full day park.
  • This deal blocked Universal from buying theme park rights to Avatar and potentially building it down the road from WDW
For question # 2 in my opinion they probably don't regret the decision so I'm not sure how to answer that. I'll say that they probably don't regret the choice because none of the items listed above have changed. I'm trying to avoid further frustrating you or not making sense but in my view something usually has to happen or change for you to regret a decision. Kraft foods regrets having Bill Cosby as its spokesperson for Jello Pudding pops because the allegations against Cosby became public. Pete Carrol regrets not running the ball in the Super Bowl since the pass got picked off and they lost the game. People get drunk or just do stupid spontaneous things all the time and regret it, but this was not a spontaneous move it was thought out and vetted by the people involved. I'm sure they considered alternatives at the time. Obviously, if the land bombs like @s8film40 thinks and nobody shows up then I'm sure they will regret the decision but as of right now, as I sit here typing this, there is nothing that has changed that would cause regret (budget overruns aside).

There are literally hundreds of possible alternatives Disney could have picked instead of Avatar. Those same alternatives existed in 2011 and 2014 and still do now. I have a hard time believing that any of those alternatives would cause Iger to regret the decision now because he could have just picked one of those in 2011 with no money down and no formal announcement. The one exception could be Star Wars since Disney didn't buy Lucas Films until a year later, but I think they are happy with Star Wars anchoring the DHS reboot.

So hopefully that qualifies as an answer to your question.

Okay, so here are my thoughts. Sorry if some is repetative from before, but since those previous posts are a jumbled mess worth forgetting about, I'll lay my thoughts out nicely here:

Bob Iger likes synergy. Synergy, if anyone doesn't know, is basically different parts of the company promoting eachother to create greater value in the end. So, for example, the Frozen ride in Norway will not only being popularity to that pavillion, but the ride will also bring popularity to the Frozen francise, and in the end, that means dollar bills for Bob. But Avatar is problematic, because synergy doesn't work both ways here. Avatar is supposed to make the land more popular, but in return, the land (if done well) will inevitably bring more popularity to Avatar. And especially now that the first sequel is coming out after the land opens, I feel like Bob Iger thinks "how unfair, our land is basically a real-life advertisement for your sequel!" He expected the land to open after the sequel in 2011, and could not foresee that Cameron would delay it 4 times.

And on top of that, Avatar is in somewhat of a competition with Star Wars. Or with Marvel. Or with Disney's movie division as a whole. So does Bob Iger really want Avatar 2 to succeed? If it does, that means a competing studio and a competing company's francise is succeeding in Bob's favorite division. If Avatar 2 doesn't succeed, then it likely spells doom for Avatar land in Iger's mind. Sure, realistically the land should be able to do just fine without the movie, but Bob places such a high importance on the value of IP that I doubt he'd see that.

So basically those two paragraphs are saying that Avatar is a double-edged sword. Does he want it to succeed or not? I don't think that Bob Iger foresaw in 2011 how much competition Disney would be in with Avatar years later, directly or indirectly. It's like, do you root for your lifelong favorite NFL team, or the one that your brother plays on? Tough call, and in the end, you probably wish that your brother could just be on your favorite team.

Another big concern is fans. Fans of Avatar, I mean. Oh wait, you can't find them? Yeah neither can I, and neither can Bob, because there are so very few die-hard Avatar fans. Bob is probably comparing Pandora to WWoHP in his head since this is his "revenge" or "comback" project in a certain way (at least I think so). So he's probably been thinking about WWoHP's opening day quite a bit. If you recall, that opening day had so many fans packed everywhere, there were lines and backups across the entire resort. A lot of these people were superfans (dare I say, geeks?) of Harry Poter who came in droves to be there at opening. But for Avatar, I don't see those same type of people. I don't see, other than theme park entusiasts, who would make that type of effort to visit on opening day. I think Iger is definitely concerned that the news won't see pictures of a huge crowd of dressed up superfans on opening day, but rather, a normal day's crowd of normal looking people. And that that lack of momentum and lack of true fans might carry over how popular the land is. In 2011, I don't think enough time had passed for him to see how few potter-caliber fans there are for Avatar.

Very few people 18 and under have seen Avatar, and in an effort to attract all ages, that's gotta be concerning to him a bit. If children do not have much interest or have no knowledge of the IP, will parents be inclined to book a trip for it? I don't know if Bob thinks like that but his spreadsheets and pie charts must indicate this concern somehow. After all, Disney made such an effort in 2009 and 2010 to appeal to boys, with buying marvel, taking Cinderella's name out of the carousel and replacing it with Prince Charming, and then finally, changing their plans for New Fantasyland by getting rid of the snow white ride and adding a seven dwarfs ride instead. Sure, this age issue with Avatar hasn't changed much since 2011, but I don't think Iger saw every problem clearly back then.

I think he's worried about merchandise as well, especially that the merchandise sales won't be high enough to make up for that percentage (still don't know how much) Disney is giving to Cameron. But that's been discussed and I have no evidence or thoughts to prove this one, so I'll skip it.

Bob doesn't understand theme parks very well, and doesn't understand what makes a certain thing in a park popular. I think his main motivation to sign that deal was Avatar's glowing theater numbers. However, and you may disagree, but I truly think it's shocking and unpredictable to him and many others how the top-grossing movie of all time (by a landslide) has completely disappeared from people's radars. Not saying people hate the movie, but nobody really talks about it in normal conversation. It feels gone. Finding Nemo wasn't the top-grossing film, but it's one movie and yet it's still highly known and talked about today. Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory flopped in theaters and yet everyone uses it for memes. Avatar is dead, in my opinion, and I don't think Bob is optimistic enough to put a ton of faith in it being revived,

We all know what happens when we're angry. Sometimes it comes out, but other times, we just move swiftly and in our own path, and we don't look at the full picture. Not saying Bob reached what we can call anger, but I think Harry Potter's success came at such a surprise to him that he was thrown off, and so he responded. I believe the newness of the situation and his lack of theme park knowledge caused him to look at it all with foggy glasses when he was signing his name in 2011, but now he's had time to sit back and think about whether it was a good idea. And the things I said above lead me to believe he isn't totally happy.

So your points are good and I didn't attack them because, to be honest, they are true and I don't have anything to say against them. I don't agree with them personally but Bob Iger probably still does, and that's what we're talking about here. I just think that the negatives are more overwhelming. My argument is putting a lot of faith in Bob Iger (and his executive minions) having time to sit back and think, as well as now being able to see the double-edged sword that might've been too far off in 2011. So yeah, that's my (very long) argument, and I hope I have talked in terms of Bob and Disney execs' opinions rather than my own. I hope what I've said is discussable if anyone wants to take a stab at it.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
they re not at least in regards to star wars
I don't think either would put their respective movies on the same opening date. They're both going to want to get as many screens as possible and don't want to split it. At the rate they're going Avatar could come out sometime around the same time as Episode IX though, just not the same week or probably even month.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Okay, so here are my thoughts. Sorry if some is repetative from before, but since those previous posts are a jumbled mess worth forgetting about, I'll lay my thoughts out nicely here:

Bob Iger likes synergy. Synergy, if anyone doesn't know, is basically different parts of the company promoting eachother to create greater value in the end. So, for example, the Frozen ride in Norway will not only being popularity to that pavillion, but the ride will also bring popularity to the Frozen francise, and in the end, that means dollar bills for Bob. But Avatar is problematic, because synergy doesn't work both ways here. Avatar is supposed to make the land more popular, but in return, the land (if done well) will inevitably bring more popularity to Avatar. And especially now that the first sequel is coming out after the land opens, I feel like Bob Iger thinks "how unfair, our land is basically a real-life advertisement for your sequel!" He expected the land to open after the sequel in 2011, and could not foresee that Cameron would delay it 4 times.

And on top of that, Avatar is in somewhat of a competition with Star Wars. Or with Marvel. Or with Disney's movie division as a whole. So does Bob Iger really want Avatar 2 to succeed? If it does, that means a competing studio and a competing company's francise is succeeding in Bob's favorite division. If Avatar 2 doesn't succeed, then it likely spells doom for Avatar land in Iger's mind. Sure, realistically the land should be able to do just fine without the movie, but Bob places such a high importance on the value of IP that I doubt he'd see that.

So basically those two paragraphs are saying that Avatar is a double-edged sword. Does he want it to succeed or not? I don't think that Bob Iger foresaw in 2011 how much competition Disney would be in with Avatar years later, directly or indirectly. It's like, do you root for your lifelong favorite NFL team, or the one that your brother plays on? Tough call, and in the end, you probably wish that your brother could just be on your favorite team.

Another big concern is fans. Fans of Avatar, I mean. Oh wait, you can't find them? Yeah neither can I, and neither can Bob, because there are so very few die-hard Avatar fans. Bob is probably comparing Pandora to WWoHP in his head since this is his "revenge" or "comback" project in a certain way (at least I think so). So he's probably been thinking about WWoHP's opening day quite a bit. If you recall, that opening day had so many fans packed everywhere, there were lines and backups across the entire resort. A lot of these people were superfans (dare I say, geeks?) of Harry Poter who came in droves to be there at opening. But for Avatar, I don't see those same type of people. I don't see, other than theme park entusiasts, who would make that type of effort to visit on opening day. I think Iger is definitely concerned that the news won't see pictures of a huge crowd of dressed up superfans on opening day, but rather, a normal day's crowd of normal looking people. And that that lack of momentum and lack of true fans might carry over how popular the land is. In 2011, I don't think enough time had passed for him to see how few potter-caliber fans there are for Avatar.

Very few people 18 and under have seen Avatar, and in an effort to attract all ages, that's gotta be concerning to him a bit. If children do not have much interest or have no knowledge of the IP, will parents be inclined to book a trip for it? I don't know if Bob thinks like that but his spreadsheets and pie charts must indicate this concern somehow. After all, Disney made such an effort in 2009 and 2010 to appeal to boys, with buying marvel, taking Cinderella's name out of the carousel and replacing it with Prince Charming, and then finally, changing their plans for New Fantasyland by getting rid of the snow white ride and adding a seven dwarfs ride instead. Sure, this age issue with Avatar hasn't changed much since 2011, but I don't think Iger saw every problem clearly back then.

I think he's worried about merchandise as well, especially that the merchandise sales won't be high enough to make up for that percentage (still don't know how much) Disney is giving to Cameron. But that's been discussed and I have no evidence or thoughts to prove this one, so I'll skip it.

Bob doesn't understand theme parks very well, and doesn't understand what makes a certain thing in a park popular. I think his main motivation to sign that deal was Avatar's glowing theater numbers. However, and you may disagree, but I truly think it's shocking and unpredictable to him and many others how the top-grossing movie of all time (by a landslide) has completely disappeared from people's radars. Not saying people hate the movie, but nobody really talks about it in normal conversation. It feels gone. Finding Nemo wasn't the top-grossing film, but it's one movie and yet it's still highly known and talked about today. Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory flopped in theaters and yet everyone uses it for memes. Avatar is dead, in my opinion, and I don't think Bob is optimistic enough to put a ton of faith in it being revived,

We all know what happens when we're angry. Sometimes it comes out, but other times, we just move swiftly and in our own path, and we don't look at the full picture. Not saying Bob reached what we can call anger, but I think Harry Potter's success came at such a surprise to him that he was thrown off, and so he responded. I believe the newness of the situation and his lack of theme park knowledge caused him to look at it all with foggy glasses when he was signing his name in 2011, but now he's had time to sit back and think about whether it was a good idea. And the things I said above lead me to believe he isn't totally happy.

So your points are good and I didn't attack them because, to be honest, they are true and I don't have anything to say against them. I don't agree with them personally but Bob Iger probably still does, and that's what we're talking about here. I just think that the negatives are more overwhelming. My argument is putting a lot of faith in Bob Iger (and his executive minions) having time to sit back and think, as well as now being able to see the double-edged sword that might've been too far off in 2011. So yeah, that's my (very long) argument, and I hope I have talked in terms of Bob and Disney execs' opinions rather than my own. I hope what I've said is discussable if anyone wants to take a stab at it.
AVATAR is the highest grossing movie of all time, that cannot be dismissed.

With that in mind though, it's true that the fan community for Avatar is totally different than most other franchises that have had their own dedicated land. Harry Potter has a rabid fan base. Cars and Toy Story both have rabid (albeit younger) fan bases. Star Wars has a rabid fan base. Avatar's fan base is not rabid. I'd argue that it's similar to Jurassic Park. It's something that people wholeheartedly enjoyed and wanted to experience. The difference is neither Avatar nor Jurassic Park have a built in audience that will plan vacations around the franchise. That being said, if it's well executed the franchise will help in the promotion of the new land. It gives people something to grasp on to that they understand. That is the appeal of intellectual property based attractions.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
AVATAR is the highest grossing movie of all time, that cannot be dismissed.

With that in mind though, it's true that the fan community for Avatar is totally different than most other franchises that have had their own dedicated land. Harry Potter has a rabid fan base. Cars and Toy Story both have rabid (albeit younger) fan bases. Star Wars has a rabid fan base. Avatar's fan base is not rabid. I'd argue that it's similar to Jurassic Park. It's something that people wholeheartedly enjoyed and wanted to experience. The difference is neither Avatar nor Jurassic Park have a built in audience that will plan vacations around the franchise. That being said, if it's well executed the franchise will help in the promotion of the new land. It gives people something to grasp on to that they understand. That is the appeal of intellectual property based attractions.
I have seen far more merchandise and fan engagement with Jurassic Park than Avatar.
 

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