News Avatar Experience coming to Disneyland Resort

[Disneyland/DCA]

Disney Florida Adventure
Spring Break Land - beach party of co-eds - the ride and beer gardens
Alligator Bayou Land - with Swamp Thing/Man Thing - the ride and Alligator petting
Retirement Land - Trailer park with old people - Trapped in a Retirement home - the ride!, Hurricane - the ride!, DVC - the sales pitch - the ride!
Theme park Land - biggest land celebrating theme parks with miscellaneous copies of rides from Disney World, Sea World, Universal, Bush Gardens and Legoland

Goofy's Bath Salt Adventure! - A VR Experience

 

[Basketbuddy101]

I just want great attractions and the other lands to feel immersive like Cars Land. I think the CA theme holds the park back because of its restrictions, and expecting GCH to be the reason the CA theme or Grizzly remains is too hopeful. The more the park moves away from CA the better it becomes and the more park attendance rises.
Don't get me wrong, a California theme could've worked if done more thoughtfully, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

Could not disagree more. California Adventure was arguably at its peak 2015-2016, that is, before Mission Breakout came around. The park today is a cautionary tale in botched potential; just a dumbed-down shell of what it really should've been. Simply building attractions that draw the masses like cattle (IncrediCoaster, Coco, Avatar, etc.) doesn't make it a good park. Not to mention, the idea that a California theme is inherently-detrimental to a theme park's success is nonsense; Disney was just too cheap to do it right in 2001, and their fixation on exploiting their IPs is what killed any chance of the park ever being a truly great Disney park in the vein of DisneySea. I maintain that it all went downhill when they closed what was arguably DCA's crown jewel in Tower of Terror. Beyond its superficial popularity, I've yet to hear a compelling argument for how Mission Breakout is anything less than a downgrade seven years into its existence.

 

[DLR92]

I beg to differ. I am born and raised in SoCal. California has rich history and culture. Celebrating this great state is worthy as Disneyland takes on romanticism of America.

 

[mickEblu]

Could not disagree more. California Adventure was arguably at its peak 2015-2016, that is, before Mission Breakout came around. The park today is a cautionary tale in botched potential; just a dumbed-down shell of what it really should've been. Simply building attractions that draw the masses like cattle (IncrediCoaster, Coco, Avatar, etc.) doesn't make it a good park. Not to mention, the idea that a California theme is inherently-detrimental to a theme park's success is nonsense; Disney was just too cheap to do it right in 2001, and their fixation on exploiting their IPs is what killed any chance of the park ever being a truly great Disney park in the vein of DisneySea. I maintain that it all went downhill when they closed what was arguably DCA's crown jewel in Tower of Terror. Beyond its superficial popularity, I've yet to hear a compelling argument for how Mission Breakout is anything less than a downgrade seven years into its existence.

I think it could have worked for sure with the right execution but by the time they realized their mistakes the IP revolution was in full swing. I think the theme is just too limiting for a company like Disney with such a large catalogue of IP to exploit. Not to mention all the studios they have purchased in the meantime. I think even if had they got it right the first time in 2001 the park would probably look much different today. All that Star Wars, Marvel and Pixar IP has to go somewhere. And if you re going to somehow try and force some paper thin connection to California with Pixar and Marvel IP what’s the point of having the California theme anyway?

 

[Professortango1]

You're reaching there. The point is TDS is not themed to just Tokyo or Japan, its a broadly themed park that isn't locked into just one locale.

Bottom line, you aren't going to change my opinion here. Having DCA locked into "California" as a theme is dumb to me, it limits what they can do with it. I'm glad you like the theme, but I'm not sad that they have moved away from being locked into it.

The other example I can give you is Knotts. Knotts is a theme park themed to California.

Calico Ghost Town
Wilderness Area
Camp Snoopy
Fiesta Village
Knott's Air Field (now Car Culture themed)
Roarin' 20's (now Boardwalk themed)

They made it work without Disney's craftsmanship and funding. Imagine what Disney could have created?

 

[Disney Irish]

The other example I can give you is Knotts. Knotts is a theme park themed to California.

Calico Ghost Town
Wilderness Area
Camp Snoopy
Fiesta Village
Knott's Air Field (now Car Culture themed)
Roarin' 20's (now Boardwalk themed)

They made it work without Disney's craftsmanship and funding. Imagine what Disney could have created?

Again I think you're reaching here, especially Camp Snoopy as it exists in multiple Six Flags across the country and all themed pretty much the same with no indication its specifically in California. Heck at Knott's it replaced even a California specific themed attraction in The Cable Car. So they went away from "California" to a generic Snoopy themed land.

Anyways I've already said you're not going to change my opinion here. I think theming a Park to a single locale like "California" is dumb and limiting. I'm happy you like it, but I'm not sad that Disney is going away from it. So lets just agree to disagree here and move on.

 

[Professortango1]

Again I think you're reaching here, especially Camp Snoopy as it exists in multiple Six Flags across the country and all themed pretty much the same with no indication its specifically in California. Heck at Knott's it replaced even a California specific themed attraction in The Cable Car. So they went away from "California" to a generic Snoopy themed land.

Anyways I've already said you're not going to change my opinion here. I think theming a Park to a single locale like "California" is dumb and limiting. I'm happy you like it, but I'm not sad that Disney is going away from it. So lets just agree to disagree here and move on.

Not reaching. Just evident. I don't think it was a conscious effort, but the Knott's family built a park that spoke to the community they were serving. The draw of Calico Ghost Town. The expansion with Bigfoot Rapids featuring a California cryptid. The early days had the "Gyp*y Camp" that was replaced by the Roarin' 20's, so that became more California-centric after time. The parachute ride and plane themes around the back end of the park. Fiesta Village embracing the Mexican influence and culture over our area.

As for the Six Flags allusion, that's funny considering they added the High Sierras Territory to Magic Mountain when I was a kid. Once again...California inspired.

Just seems like Disney might have built the most expensive and least interesting version of the concept. All the more reason to move away from it and rebrand with Pandora.

 

[Disney Irish]

Not reaching. Just evident. I don't think it was a conscious effort, but the Knott's family built a park that spoke to the community they were serving. The draw of Calico Ghost Town. The expansion with Bigfoot Rapids featuring a California cryptid. The early days had the "Gyp*y Camp" that was replaced by the Roarin' 20's, so that became more California-centric after time. The parachute ride and plane themes around the back end of the park. Fiesta Village embracing the Mexican influence and culture over our area.

As for the Six Flags allusion, that's funny considering they added the High Sierras Territory to Magic Mountain when I was a kid. Once again...California inspired.

Just seems like Disney might have built the most expensive and least interesting version of the concept. All the more reason to move away from it and rebrand with Pandora.

Well the Knott's Family doesn't own the Park anymore, its now owned by the new Six Flags, as you know. And they don't appear to be continuing to lean into whatever "California" theme long term you believe was there previously. And even if they did, I'm not a fan which is why I don't frequent the Park very often.

I'm not sure what you want here. I'm sorry your childhood dream of having a completely "California" centric themed Disney Park is ruined. You seem like you want to keep on this "What if" or "What could've been" topic, something I think is best had elsewhere like in the Imagineering forum. As I said I believe the theme is dumb and limiting, and that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. You can like, love, or whatever all you want, its not going to change my opinion. I'm not sure why you can't accept that.

 

[Professortango1]

Well the Knott's Family doesn't own the Park anymore, its now owned by the new Six Flags, as you know. And they don't appear to be continuing to lean into whatever "California" theme long term you believe was there previously. And even if they did, I'm not a fan which is why I don't frequent the Park very often.

I'm not sure what you want here. I'm sorry your childhood dream of having a completely "California" centric themed Disney Park is ruined. You seem like you want to keep on this "What if" or "What could've been" topic, something I think is best had elsewhere like in the Imagineering forum. As I said I believe the theme is dumb and limiting, and that is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. You can like, love, or whatever all you want, its not going to change my opinion. I'm not sure why you can't accept that.

The Knotts family hasn't owned it for awhile, since they sold to Cedar Faire in 1997. I'm just trying to understand your position here better. You clearly enjoy themed entertainment and parks, as you are here. But the California idea doesn't appeal to you. I wondered if it was because you were thinking too contemporary, like Disney did with DCA, and ignoring all of the rich interesting history and lore tied to the state. You then stated you didn't care about the history or lore, it was too restrictive a theme. So them I wondered if you were thinking about the theme too literally and used Disney Seas as an example of taking the spirit without being a theme park dedicated to the ocean or California verbatim. You didn't see the comparison between the parks so I compared to another local and beloved park, Knotts, which is very much rooted in California in terms of theme.

I'm not trying to troll you or poke holes, I honestly am just trying to understand your argument. And I may never understand it. That's okay. But I was just seeing how you felt about Disney Sea being a park themed around what can be a narrow theme or about Knotts being a park themed around California. Dumb and limiting doesn't tell me about why you believe something, so I was trying to explore why you felt that way. Sorry to bother you, didn't mean you any harm.

 

[Disney Irish]

The Knotts family hasn't owned it for awhile, since they sold to Cedar Faire in 1997. I'm just trying to understand your position here better. You clearly enjoy themed entertainment and parks, as you are here. But the California idea doesn't appeal to you. I wondered if it was because you were thinking too contemporary, like Disney did with DCA, and ignoring all of the rich interesting history and lore tied to the state. You then stated you didn't care about the history or lore, it was too restrictive a theme. So them I wondered if you were thinking about the theme too literally and used Disney Seas as an example of taking the spirit without being a theme park dedicated to the ocean or California verbatim. You didn't see the comparison between the parks so I compared to another local and beloved park, Knotts, which is very much rooted in California in terms of theme.

I'm not trying to troll you or poke holes, I honestly am just trying to understand your argument. And I may never understand it. That's okay. But I was just seeing how you felt about Disney Sea being a park themed around what can be a narrow theme or about Knotts being a park themed around California. Dumb and limiting doesn't tell me about why you believe something, so I was trying to explore why you felt that way. Sorry to bother you, didn't mean you any harm.

Disney Seas is not themed to one location, ie its not themed to Tokyo or Japan. It has a broad theme around the seas, the location of which doesn't matter. So its not limiting in what they can do with it, ie they don't have to make sure that everything they do is themed to anything other than something to so with the seas.

With DCA themed to California, you think that is a broad theme or at least broad enough so its not limiting in your mind. I don't feel that way. I don't need everything in that Park themed around a location. I find that very limiting as you can't do a lot of things because if its not tied to "California" it wouldn't make sense, example the topic of this thread Avatar. We've been debating over and over how they can get Avatar into DCA if it doesn't fit "California", that is what I consider limiting. I rather have the Park be broadly themed, like the seas or some other similar concept that doesn't limit it to asking "how does this happen in California". For example if DCA was themed to the seas like TDS you can easily say "Hey Avatar fits because Way with Water deals with the seas in Pandora".

That is my point, that is my opinion, that will not change.

 

[MistaDee]

While you and many classic fans of the original parks may feel this way, you are dramatically in the minority. Star wars and Harry potter have a massive presence in theme parks around the country because of their success and popularity. Marvel is bigger than both put together. While I wish they would have had the patience creating avengers campus that they did when they started the MCU, hopefully the 2 new attractions will make the land worthy of the fan base.

This is only true if you're comparing nominal box office numbers, which given inflation, you really shouldn't be doing. It also doesn't capture interest expressed through merchandise, books, comics, video games etc.

The MCU is actually smaller than both Star Wars and Harry Potter when accounting for all that over the lifetime of the property. This method is also imperfect though as you're comparing franchises that haven't been around the same length of time, but very interesting! Crazy how well Pokemon and Winnie the Pooh seem to do.

As far as the CA theme. Eh. I think it can still keep the overall them by using Hollywood land as a gateway to the imagination coming out of the magic of Hollywood. Leave GRR and soarin alone. No need to change the name either.

 

[MistaDee]

Disney Seas is not themed to one location, ie its not themed to Tokyo or Japan. It has a broad theme around the seas, the location of which doesn't matter. So its not limiting in what they can do with it, ie they don't have to make sure that everything they do is themed to anything other than something to so with the seas.

For the sake of argument, I agree that "the high seas" is the far more expansive theme that can really traverse across the whole coastal-ish globe, time period and fantasy/reality.

With DCA themed to California, you think that is a broad theme or at least broad enough so its not limiting in your mind. I don't feel that way. I don't need everything in that Park themed around a location. I find that very limiting as you can't do a lot of things because if its not tied to "California" it wouldn't make sense, example the topic of this thread Avatar. We've been debating over and over how they can get Avatar into DCA if it doesn't fit "California", that is what I consider limiting. I rather have the Park be broadly themed, like the seas or some other similar concept that doesn't limit it to asking "how does this happen in California". For example if DCA was themed to the seas like TDS you can easily say "Hey Avatar fits because Way with Water deals with the seas in Pandora".

That is my point, that is my opinion, that will not change.

I also agree with you that "California" is an imperfect, limiting choice for a theme park. From a design perspective, it closes far more doors than it opens. That said, I do think the DisneySea comparison is relevant because it demonstrates the level of execution that Imagineering was capable of for two parks that opened the same year.

For me, DCA 1.0's irredeemable failure was not its choice of theme. I think that had Paul Pressler and Eisner been willing to make the investment in DCA that Oriental Land Co were able to for DisneySea we would have a beautiful park that most of us on the forum would be happy with.

Others have offered some ideas for what sort of lands/themes they could go for, but I'm curious: I understand your stance that the choice of "California" was wrong. If we'd gotten a DCA concept executed to the level of DisneySea, do you think you'd enjoy that? I know I would!

 

[AZDLR]

This is only true if you're comparing nominal box office numbers, which given inflation, you really shouldn't be doing. It also doesn't capture interest expressed through merchandise, books, comics, video games etc.

The MCU is actually smaller than both Star Wars and Harry Potter when accounting for all that over the lifetime of the property. This method is also imperfect though as you're comparing franchises that haven't been around the same length of time, but very interesting! Crazy how well Pokemon and Winnie the Pooh seem to do.

View attachment 816632

Funny how you mention books and other media but on that list it only counts the MCU, forgetting about 80 years of comic books video games etc. Also you notltice how spider man is right below the MCU? Kinda part of marvel too you know. Also this graph shows no video games or other revenue for the MCU. So it is that high on the list based only on box office and movie merchandise. This list is also 5 years old so Marvel has continued to be huge when star wars, Harry potter etc have been relatively quiet. Also pokemon, hello kitty etc are far bigger outside the US. So no biggie if you don't like Marvel, but US consumers who vote with their wallets disagree with you and this makes it worthy of a large space in a disney theme park. Fans get excited for these attractions. Cosmic rewind is my current favorite ride in the US. I can't wait for the 2 new avengers campus rides because overall the rides for AC have been disappointing. Especially since I hate elevator drops lol.

 

[Consumer]

I beg to differ. I am born and raised in SoCal. California has rich history and culture. Celebrating this great state is worthy as Disneyland takes on romanticism of America.

Bingo. The "I can just travel California" argument is stupid. I love seeing the places that have inspired Disneyland, but ultimately Disneyland is still Disneyland and that carries a certain air that distinguishes it from its influences. Same goes for DCA. I can go to Los Angeles, Hollywood, and Santa Cruz, but I can't go to Carthay Circle, Hollywood Tower Hotel, and Paradise Pier.

California's great, and I heavily encourage people to travel and see it, but it's still flawed.

 

[waltography]

Bingo. The "I can just travel California" argument is stupid. I love seeing the places that have inspired Disneyland, but ultimately Disneyland is still Disneyland and that carries a certain air that distinguishes it from its influences. Same goes for DCA. I can go to Los Angeles, Hollywood, and Santa Cruz, but I can't go to Carthay Circle, Hollywood Tower Hotel, and Paradise Pier.

What do you mean, don't you experience momentary lapses in consciousness when you hang glide around California listening to movie music on your AirPods?

 

[Disney Irish]

For the sake of argument, I agree that "the high seas" is the far more expansive theme that can really traverse across the whole coastal-ish globe, time period and fantasy/reality.

I also agree with you that "California" is an imperfect, limiting choice for a theme park. From a design perspective, it closes far more doors than it opens. That said, I do think the DisneySea comparison is relevant because it demonstrates the level of execution that Imagineering was capable of for two parks that opened the same year.

For me, DCA 1.0's irredeemable failure was not its choice of theme. I think that had Paul Pressler and Eisner been willing to make the investment in DCA that Oriental Land Co were able to for DisneySea we would have a beautiful park that most of us on the forum would be happy with.

Others have offered some ideas for what sort of lands/themes they could go for, but I'm curious: I understand your stance that the choice of "California" was wrong. If we'd gotten a DCA concept executed to the level of DisneySea, do you think you'd enjoy that? I know I would!

I appreciate your opinion, as I do the Professor there, and I agree that DCA 1.0 was just a pathetic attempt at a Park due to many factors but specifically execution. However with that said while its possible I would have enjoyed a TDS level of theming execution for DCA had it been done, we're back to the "What if"/"What could've been" discussion. Its a futile exercise that ends up just upsetting people. In the end I still stand by my opinion that no matter the level of execution "California" is just a limiting theme for a Park, ie I don't need to be sold on the idea which it appears many tries to do when this topic comes up. I appreciate broad themes not locale themes. As there is so much more that you be done with a broadly themed Park then one themed to a specific locale, again just my opinion. That doesn't mean anyone that likes the "California" theme is wrong, its just what I like vs dislike.

 

[Disney Irish]

Bingo. The "I can just travel California" argument is stupid. I love seeing the places that have inspired Disneyland, but ultimately Disneyland is still Disneyland and that carries a certain air that distinguishes it from its influences. Same goes for DCA. I can go to Los Angeles, Hollywood, and Santa Cruz, but I can't go to Carthay Circle, Hollywood Tower Hotel, and Paradise Pier.

No one here called it stupid if you like the "California" theming, so not sure why you have to call other's opinions stupid just because they don't like it and provided reasons why. Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean you have to disrespect them.

I've traveled and lived in different locations within the state as well as outside the state for more years than you've been alive, all places are flawed. But that doesn't mean I want a fantasized version of them just because they are flawed. The concept has its merits but its also still very limiting in my opinion. And if I'm going to spend my money on a theme park vacation I rather spend it on a place that isn't themed to a specific locale but is themed to a broad theme.

 

[coffeefan]

I appreciate your opinion, as I do the Professor there, and I agree that DCA 1.0 was just a pathetic attempt at a Park due to many factors but specifically execution. However with that said while its possible I would have enjoyed a TDS level of theming execution for DCA had it been done, we're back to the "What if"/"What could've been" discussion. Its a futile exercise that ends up just upsetting people. In the end I still stand by my opinion that no matter the level of execution "California" is just a limiting theme for a Park, ie I don't need to be sold on the idea which it appears many tries to do when this topic comes up. I appreciate broad themes not locale themes. As there is so much more that you be done with a broadly themed Park then one themed to a specific locale, again just my opinion. That doesn't mean anyone that likes the "California" theme is wrong, its just what I like vs dislike.

Well, the conversation will keep coming around because of the Grizzly area, and the park will remain a disjointed piecemeal park until Disney goes all-in on a Movie/IP park experience. That is why many of us would prefer a reimagined Avatar land for Grizzly. And if the layout is improved the space may even be big enough for an Endor land there too.

 

[Disney Irish]

Well, the conversation will keep coming around because of the Grizzly area, and the park will remain a disjointed piecemeal park until Disney goes all-in on a Movie/IP park experience. That is why many of us would prefer a reimagined Avatar land for Grizzly. And if the layout is improved the space may even be big enough for an Endor land there too.

Don't kid yourself, the conversation will keep coming up no matter what happens with Grizzly Peak or what Disney does with the rest of the Park.

 

[Mr. Sullivan]

and the park will remain a disjointed piecemeal park until Disney goes all-in on a Movie/IP park experience.

I really hope this is eventually what happens.

I can appreciate the charm of what is left of the California theme, but it's just not going to work the more this park continues to grow. I think it would genuinely help the park overall to not have to be caught between two different identities like it currently is.