Angels tell Anaheim they're opting out of their lease on Angel Stadium

[NobodyElse]

I grew up following the California Angels and rather have that name back.

I used to consider the "California Angels" to be almost insultingly vague. Then, somebody decided football should be slightly more specific with the "Southern California Sun".

 

[Jiggsawpuzzle35]

Angels agree to stay in Anaheim through 2050, stadium to be sold for $325 million

Team owner Arte Moreno and partners would buy the stadium and land.

www.ocregister.com

>>While they’re still working out some details of a deal that will last decades, city information describes provisions including:

• Commitment of the team to play in Anaheim through 2050, with optional extensions adding up to 15 more years.
• Sale of 153 acres, including parking lots and the 45,483-seat stadium, to SRB Management for $325 million.
• Community benefits including affordable housing, parkland in addition to what’s already required of new developments, and a local hire agreement for construction; the housing and parks would be given a dollar value that would be subtracted from the land’s selling price.
• As the stadium’s owner, Moreno’s partnership would be required to provide parking at the current level of 12,500 spaces, which will likely require building a costly parking garage as development moves forward; the team also would be solely responsible for either making millions in stadium repairs or building a new venue.
• Other impacts to the city’s bottom line, such as canceling its annual stadium maintenance fund payment of about $700,000; Anaheim would still be on the hook to pay about $523,000 in debt left over from an ill-fated addition of exhibit space in the late 1980s.<<

What's your personal opinion on whether they renovate the aging out of date stadium or build a brand new smaller stadium?

 

[Darkbeer1]

What's your personal opinion on whether they renovate the aging out of date stadium or build a brand new smaller stadium?

My educated guess. The Angels will spend much of 2020 and 2021 working with the city to iron out all the details on the entire project, Stadium, housing, parking structure, etc. The facility will operate as normal during that period.

Then a New stadium will be built close to ARTIC, while the current stadium still operates. Parking will have to come into play, so unless the city gives a short term waiver in exchange for using the Honda Center lots and other short term stuff, such as off site employee parking, the structure is step A, the Ballpark next, then when the new park is operating, then the old one will come down, and the development of the housing, retail, parks, etc. will start.

Remember the Olympics are coming in 2028, and the connected Sports complex plus the train station is key for all parties. And of course, the new development also gains due to the event. So that is a key completion date.

But the "new" stadium can be used by the team to negotiate all the other pieces to the deal with the city. So the team won't commit to it until a full deal is signed.

A lot of the pieces of the puzzle have been in development in the last couple of years, and that is all I can really say about that.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Councilmember Trevor O'Neil -

>>Exciting news to share! This deal keeps the Angels in Anaheim through at least 2050 and is expected to generate funds now and in the future that will help enhance public safety, improve neighborhoods and parks, and pay down our unfunded pension obligations.

With this deal, we will also be building on the vision of the Platinum Triangle by creating a world-class sports and entertainment complex that will be a destination for all of Orange County. This deal is a win, win, win - a deal which benefits the residents and taxpayers first, as well as the city and the team.

Congratulations to Mayor Harry Sidhu and our negotiating team for hitting a home run of a deal for Anaheim. I look forward to the public review process and a vote by the Anaheim City Council later this month.<<

 

[DanielBB8]

Moreno buying the stadium and land means Anaheim is out of the subsidizing business. Moreno pockets all profits. The city gets sales taxes and more.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Proposal: Angels through 2050-plus, stadium, land sale, community benefits

ANAHEIM, Calif. (Dec. 4, 2019) — A three-step proposed agreement would keep Angels Baseball in Anaheim through at least 2050, see a land and stadium sale valued at $325 million and potential development including affordable housing and parks.

The city’s negotiating team today announced a proposed agreement with SRB Management LLC, a company of Angels Baseball LP owner Arte Moreno. The proposal would go before Anaheim’s City Council for consideration in stages later this month and in spring 2020.

“After years of uncertainty, we have a path forward for baseball in Anaheim,” said Mayor Harry Sidhu, the Anaheim City Council’s representative on the city’s negotiating team. “This proposal reflects what we’ve heard from our community by keeping the Angels in Anaheim, bringing money for our neighborhoods and the prospect of more affordable housing, parks and jobs for Anaheim.”

An overview of the proposal:

2050: The Angels would commit to play in Anaheim for the next 30 years with options for an additional 15 years.

$325 million: SRB Management would buy 153 acres of city land, including 45,483-seat Angel Stadium of Anaheim. At $2.1 million an acre, the sale’s value would be at market rate and at the high end of Anaheim’s commissioned appraisal for baseball with parking and potential development.

Stadium: SRB Management would commit to and finance any renovation of Angel Stadium of Anaheim or the building a new stadium.

Development: Land around the stadium could see apartments, condominiums, hotels and entertainment uses in the next 30 years as part of Anaheim’s planning for the area known as the Platinum Triangle. As land gives way to new uses, conservative estimates project at least $7 million in net yearly city revenue from hotel, property and sales taxes.

Community benefits: The city could seek that any development includes affordable housing and park and public spaces beyond what is required or typically seen. Anaheim is also seeking union construction jobs with priority hiring for Anaheim residents.

Adjustment: The proposal includes a potential adjustment to the final cash payment for land and the stadium. The adjustment would reflect fair market value impact for affordable housing, added parks and public spaces and a workforce agreement if requested by the city and included in community benefits.

Stadium sale

Under the proposal, Anaheim would sell Angel Stadium. The proposal reflects a trend toward private ownership, as with Dodger Stadium and Chase Center in San Francisco, the new home of the Golden State Warriors.

Selling the Big A, as the stadium is known, would relieve the city of yearly payments toward improvements, currently at $700,000 and at $17 million through 2038, as well as annual administrative costs to oversee a stadium lease and agreements with neighboring businesses.

At the same time, the city would forego revenue sharing on ticket sales and parking, which was $1.3 million — and $581,200 after expenses — for the 12 months through June 2019.

Any revenue lost stands to be offset by savings from the end of a stadium lease.

Anaheim also would be free of long-term decisions about the stadium. SRB Management would be solely responsible for maintenance, improvements, renovations or the building of a new stadium.

“The future of a stadium, renovated or new, would rest with the Angels,” Sidhu said. “Anaheim taxpayers aren’t being asked to pay for anything.”

Future development

Land around the stadium could see development as part of Anaheim’s planning for the area.

Development could include homes, hotels and entertainment uses as part of Anaheim’s vision for the Platinum Triangle, the 820-acre area including and around Angel Stadium.

Planning for the Platinum Triangle envisions a downtown for all of Orange County built around sports with urban-style homes, restaurants, shopping, entertainment, offices and transit.

As land gives way to new uses, future development could, by conservative estimate, bring $7 million in ongoing, net yearly revenue for Anaheim from hotel, sales and property taxes.

Development would undergo city and environmental review as plans are submitted.

Affordable housing, parks

As part of any development, Anaheim could seek affordable housing and park space beyond what the city normally sees. We could also seek a workforce agreement with union construction jobs and priority hiring for Anaheim residents.

To meet these critical city priorities, an agreement could include a to-be-determined adjustment to the final cash payment for the stadium and land. As with the stadium and land sale, any adjustment would be at fair market value impact for the community benefits requested and provided as part of the agreement.

The goal would be to ensure significant affordable housing and much-needed park space in the Platinum Triangle as part of a stadium land master plan, while still preserving ample land sale proceeds for the city to invest in the community.

“This is a great proposal, but people will ask, ‘What’s the catch?’” Sidhu said. “There is one, and it’s great. The biggest hurdles to affordable housing and parks are finding land and getting developers to build. We would ask the Angels ownership to do more than others have in the Platinum Triangle, with credit for doing so.”

Anaheim’s City Council will publicly consider a land and stadium sale agreement in a special meeting on Dec. 20.

A disposition and development agreement, potentially including an adjustment for affordable housing and parks, is expected to be publicly considered by the City Council in spring 2020.

You can learn more at Anaheim.net/BigA.

 

[Jiggsawpuzzle35]

My educated guess. The Angels will spend much of 2020 and 2021 working with the city to iron out all the details on the entire project, Stadium, housing, parking structure, etc. The facility will operate as normal during that period.

Then a New stadium will be built close to ARTIC, while the current stadium still operates. Parking will have to come into play, so unless the city gives a short term waiver in exchange for using the Honda Center lots and other short term stuff, such as off site employee parking, the structure is step A, the Ballpark next, then when the new park is operating, then the old one will come down, and the development of the housing, retail, parks, etc. will start.

Remember the Olympics are coming in 2028, and the connected Sports complex plus the train station is key for all parties. And of course, the new development also gains due to the event. So that is a key completion date.

But the "new" stadium can be used by the team to negotiate all the other pieces to the deal with the city. So the team won't commit to it until a full deal is signed.

A lot of the pieces of the puzzle have been in development in the last couple of years, and that is all I can really say about that.

When you say close to the station, do you mean on the side of the current stadium or on the opposite side of the 57. If so, aren’t the Ducks already developing that land.

 

[Darkbeer1]

When you say close to the station, do you mean on the side of the current stadium or on the opposite side of the 57. If so, aren’t the Ducks already developing that land.

I am talking about the current Angel Stadium parking lot area basically north (left Field) of the current stadium.

So you have the Actual ARTIC building, then the train tracks, and the new stadium would be close to the tracks.

Of course, there will have to be a good walkable pathway from the station to the new housing, retail, etc.

 

[Jiggsawpuzzle35]

I am talking about the current Angel Stadium parking lot area basically north (left Field) of the current stadium.

So you have the Actual ARTIC building, then the train tracks, and the new stadium would be close to the tracks.

Of course, there will have to be a good walkable pathway from the station to the new housing, retail, etc.

I am talking about the current Angel Stadium parking lot area basically north (left Field) of the current stadium.

So you have the Actual ARTIC building, then the train tracks, and the new stadium would be close to the tracks.

Of course, there will have to be a good walkable pathway from the station to the new housing, retail, etc.

Ok gotcha. I usually park next to the Shell Station on Katella and walk across the street and underneath the train tracks to get to the stadium. Having the Ducks and Angels developing the area is going to be amazing. The Ducks have never had an All Star game or Outdoor game in Anaheim, but this new massive Entertainment/Retail/Business complex will be a game changer.

 

[Phroobar]

I am talking about the current Angel Stadium parking lot area basically north (left Field) of the current stadium.

So you have the Actual ARTIC building, then the train tracks, and the new stadium would be close to the tracks.

Of course, there will have to be a good walkable pathway from the station to the new housing, retail, etc.

So a new stadium is still on the same side of the freeway?

 

[choco choco]

Proposal: Angels through 2050-plus, stadium, land sale, community benefits

ANAHEIM, Calif. (Dec. 4, 2019) — A three-step proposed agreement would keep Angels Baseball in Anaheim through at least 2050, see a land and stadium sale valued at $325 million and potential development including affordable housing and parks.

The city’s negotiating team today announced a proposed agreement with SRB Management LLC, a company of Angels Baseball LP owner Arte Moreno. The proposal would go before Anaheim’s City Council for consideration in stages later this month and in spring 2020.

“After years of uncertainty, we have a path forward for baseball in Anaheim,” said Mayor Harry Sidhu, the Anaheim City Council’s representative on the city’s negotiating team. “This proposal reflects what we’ve heard from our community by keeping the Angels in Anaheim, bringing money for our neighborhoods and the prospect of more affordable housing, parks and jobs for Anaheim.”

An overview of the proposal:

2050: The Angels would commit to play in Anaheim for the next 30 years with options for an additional 15 years.

$325 million: SRB Management would buy 153 acres of city land, including 45,483-seat Angel Stadium of Anaheim. At $2.1 million an acre, the sale’s value would be at market rate and at the high end of Anaheim’s commissioned appraisal for baseball with parking and potential development.

Stadium: SRB Management would commit to and finance any renovation of Angel Stadium of Anaheim or the building a new stadium.

Development: Land around the stadium could see apartments, condominiums, hotels and entertainment uses in the next 30 years as part of Anaheim’s planning for the area known as the Platinum Triangle. As land gives way to new uses, conservative estimates project at least $7 million in net yearly city revenue from hotel, property and sales taxes.

Community benefits: The city could seek that any development includes affordable housing and park and public spaces beyond what is required or typically seen. Anaheim is also seeking union construction jobs with priority hiring for Anaheim residents.

Adjustment: The proposal includes a potential adjustment to the final cash payment for land and the stadium. The adjustment would reflect fair market value impact for affordable housing, added parks and public spaces and a workforce agreement if requested by the city and included in community benefits.

Stadium sale

Under the proposal, Anaheim would sell Angel Stadium. The proposal reflects a trend toward private ownership, as with Dodger Stadium and Chase Center in San Francisco, the new home of the Golden State Warriors.

Selling the Big A, as the stadium is known, would relieve the city of yearly payments toward improvements, currently at $700,000 and at $17 million through 2038, as well as annual administrative costs to oversee a stadium lease and agreements with neighboring businesses.

At the same time, the city would forego revenue sharing on ticket sales and parking, which was $1.3 million — and $581,200 after expenses — for the 12 months through June 2019.

Any revenue lost stands to be offset by savings from the end of a stadium lease.

Anaheim also would be free of long-term decisions about the stadium. SRB Management would be solely responsible for maintenance, improvements, renovations or the building of a new stadium.

“The future of a stadium, renovated or new, would rest with the Angels,” Sidhu said. “Anaheim taxpayers aren’t being asked to pay for anything.”

Future development

Land around the stadium could see development as part of Anaheim’s planning for the area.

Development could include homes, hotels and entertainment uses as part of Anaheim’s vision for the Platinum Triangle, the 820-acre area including and around Angel Stadium.

Planning for the Platinum Triangle envisions a downtown for all of Orange County built around sports with urban-style homes, restaurants, shopping, entertainment, offices and transit.

As land gives way to new uses, future development could, by conservative estimate, bring $7 million in ongoing, net yearly revenue for Anaheim from hotel, sales and property taxes.

Development would undergo city and environmental review as plans are submitted.

Affordable housing, parks

As part of any development, Anaheim could seek affordable housing and park space beyond what the city normally sees. We could also seek a workforce agreement with union construction jobs and priority hiring for Anaheim residents.

To meet these critical city priorities, an agreement could include a to-be-determined adjustment to the final cash payment for the stadium and land. As with the stadium and land sale, any adjustment would be at fair market value impact for the community benefits requested and provided as part of the agreement.

The goal would be to ensure significant affordable housing and much-needed park space in the Platinum Triangle as part of a stadium land master plan, while still preserving ample land sale proceeds for the city to invest in the community.

“This is a great proposal, but people will ask, ‘What’s the catch?’” Sidhu said. “There is one, and it’s great. The biggest hurdles to affordable housing and parks are finding land and getting developers to build. We would ask the Angels ownership to do more than others have in the Platinum Triangle, with credit for doing so.”

Anaheim’s City Council will publicly consider a land and stadium sale agreement in a special meeting on Dec. 20.

A disposition and development agreement, potentially including an adjustment for affordable housing and parks, is expected to be publicly considered by the City Council in spring 2020.

You can learn more at Anaheim.net/BigA.

I'm not sure I understand, if RBS is buying the plot of land, why there are time commitments to the Angels there. The Angels own the land, they can do what they want with it. They can play there into perpetuity. The can sell the land and move somewhere else if they want to, just like any other land sale.

What would even be negotiated after 30 or 45 years? That the Angels would have to give the land back? That's not a sale then, it's a lease. That they would have to change what goes onto the land? Don't property law already protect against sudden zoning changes by cities?

This is the only head-scratcher to an outcome I thought was pretty logical for both parties.

 

[Darkbeer1]

So a new stadium is still on the same side of the freeway?

Yes, the team is buying the entire property, so except for a few properties along the edges, you have Katella, State College, the 57 and Orangewood as the borders. The current City National Grove of Anaheim facility is owned by the city and sounds like part of the deal. So the new Stadium will be near the corner of Katella (train tracks) and the 57 (west side).

The north edge of the current stadium might be an issue. Either tearing down a small section in the center field area while using the rest of the current stadium. Or playing in the new Stadium that might not be totally complete until the old one is closed and torn down.

While the Angels have a vision, the details will have to be worked out. Once the team owns the land, they will, like any private owner, have to make a development plan that the city will have to approve. And of course, there will be a lot of give and take.

The story is just beginning, and it will take a few years to get fully done.

The Ducks building a new parking structure, and even the Eastern Gateway might come into play as possible temporary parking for the fans, and employees of Angel Stadium, along with more bus and train service.

This will be the largest project since the change from Disneyland to a resort 20 years ago, and will help change the city of Anaheim in many ways, and it will impact every part, West to East, North to South.

I am fortunate enough to be part of that process and ensuring every one benefits and how to do it.

Amazing that my life path has brought me to this place.

When I attend Candlelight on Sunday and hear the message of Jesus and Christmas, I will be reflecting on the journey forward, not just for my personal path, but to help lead the city to a better place to live, work and play.

The goal is to be the city to stay at while attending the 2028 Olympics, and beyond.

That includes the Resort Area, here is hoping that RotR delivers the expected new visitors, which is another key piece of the financial puzzle.

 

[Jiggsawpuzzle35]

Yes, the team is buying the entire property, so except for a few properties along the edges, you have Katella, State College, the 57 and Orangewood as the borders. The current City National Grove of Anaheim facility is owned by the city and sounds like part of the deal. So the new Stadium will be near the corner of Katella (train tracks) and the 57 (west side).

The north edge of the current stadium might be an issue. Either tearing down a small section in the center field area while using the rest of the current stadium. Or playing in the new Stadium that might not be totally complete until the old one is closed and torn down.

While the Angels have a vision, the details will have to be worked out. Once the team owns the land, they will, like any private owner, have to make a development plan that the city will have to approve. And of course, there will be a lot of give and take.

The story is just beginning, and it will take a few years to get fully done.

The Ducks building a new parking structure, and even the Eastern Gateway might come into play as possible temporary parking for the fans, and employees of Angel Stadium, along with more bus and train service.

This will be the largest project since the change from Disneyland to a resort 20 years ago, and will help change the city of Anaheim in many ways, and it will impact every part, West to East, North to South.

I am fortunate enough to be part of that process and ensuring every one benefits and how to do it.

Amazing that my life path has brought me to this place.

When I attend Candlelight on Sunday and hear the message of Jesus and Christmas, I will be reflecting on the journey forward, not just for my personal path, but to help lead the city to a better place to live, work and play.

The goal is to be the city to stay at while attending the 2028 Olympics, and beyond.

That includes the Resort Area, here is hoping that RotR delivers the expected new visitors, which is another key piece of the financial puzzle.

Bill Shaikin of the LA Times just stated the Ducks project will be "Consistent with the theme and design of the Irvine Spectrum". If that's the case, then that whole area will soon be the Hub of Orange County.

 

[Darkbeer1]

I'm not sure I understand, if RBS is buying the plot of land, why there are time commitments to the Angels there. The Angels own the land, they can do what they want with it. They can play there into perpetuity. The can sell the land and move somewhere else if they want to, just like any other land sale.

What would even be negotiated after 30 or 45 years? That the Angels would have to give the land back? That's not a sale then, it's a lease. That they would have to change what goes onto the land? Don't property law already protect against sudden zoning changes by cities?

This is the only head-scratcher to an outcome I thought was pretty logical for both parties.

OK. As a condition of the sale, the Angels are saying they will operate a MLB team on the property until 2050, or the city can take back the land. These type of deals are made all the time.

The property is currently zoned for parking and stadium use only. One of the keys of the deal is having the property developed into housing and retail. So that is the change in zoning, and the city has the control over that process.

Yes, the team can do nothing, just use the current stadium and leave the parking as is. But there is no real value in that.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

@Darkbeer1 - Can you elaborate on what you think this means for the Disneyland Resort in terms of expansion? (Attractions, new hotels, etc.)

 

[Travel Junkie]

Good for Anaheim (even though I'm a Dodger fan.) Seems like a good deal all around. New baseball stadiums are being built all over and so I would doubt Moreno is even considering renovating the old stadium.

I never thought that Anaheim has ever really capitalized on what they have. It would nice to see a new stadium complex like they did with the new Atlanta Braves new home.

 

[Darkbeer1]

@Darkbeer1 - Can you elaborate on what you think this means for the Disneyland Resort in terms of expansion? (Attractions, new hotels, etc.)

I am talking more the city's viewpoint. We had planned for more revenue when Galaxy Edge opened, and we'll, we know how this summer went. That is why many of us are hoping RotR is a big success to drive more visitors.

But the Eastern Gateway will deliver parking spaces that could be used during the new Stadium construction. So easier for the DLR to get approval.

As for what the DLR has planned, much of it doesn't need approval from the city once the Eastern Gateway gets approved. Then it is Disney's decisions to make based on the economy, labor and material costs, etc.

 

[Darkbeer1]

https://www.anaheim.net/DocumentCenter/View/29120/Stadium-land-appraisal

 

[Darkbeer1]

Anaheim Independent - Civic affairs in OC's largest city.

Civic affairs in OC's largest city.

www.anaheimblog.net

>>Development possibilities for the site include residential, retail, offices and entertainment. It’s estimated development of the site would yield in the neighborhood of $7 million annually.


The Angels have not disclosed whether they intend to build a new stadium, but knowledgeable observers consider it likely. The team has hired HKS Architects, who designed the new Minnesota Vikings stadium and a currently designing a new ballpark for the Texas Rangers – to help figure that out. Either way, the team, and not Anaheim taxpayers, will pay for it.


“For every fan who told us to keep the Angels, this proposal would do exactly that,” Mayor Harry Sidhu said in a statement. “This proposal reflects what we’ve heard from the community – keep the Angels, a fair land price, money for neighborhoods, ongoing revenue, affordable housing, parks and jobs for Anaheim.”


“It will also bring ongoing revenue to our city for years to come,” said Sidhu. “Best of all, there would be no taxpayer stadium funding and no impact to Anaheim’s budget — except to add to it.”


“We appreciate the mayor’s leadership in working to keep the Angels here in Anaheim, which has been our home for over 50 years,” Moreno said in a statement. “Today is the first step in enabling us to invest in our future by building a winning team and delivering a high-quality fan experience.”


Mayor Sidhu is calling a special city council meeting for December 20 to vote on the purchase and sale agreement. If approved, a Disposition and Development Agreement spelling out the details of development and community benefits would be hammered out during the early months of 2020.


The Basics of the Deal

• SRB Management will purchase the 153-acre site for $325 million. That includes the stadium itself and city-owned Grove Theater.
• The stadium purchase agreement is between the City of Anaheim and SRB Management LLC, of which Angels owner Arte Moreno is a partner
• The Angels agree to stay until 2050, with three five-year extension options.
• No taxpayer-funding or subsidies for stadium renovations or building a new stadium.
• The current lease would remain in effect until close of sale – potentially around 2025.
• The Angels would be required to maintain at least the current 12,500 parking spaces. This will almost certainly require the team to build a parking structure in order to develop the land.

What Changes After The Sales Closes

• Angel Stadium would, for the first time, be privately-owned.
• Anaheim taxpayers no longer on the hook: the Angels would be solely responsible for financing the maintenance and renovation of this existing stadium, or construction of a new stadium.
• The City of Anaheim will be out of the stadium business.
• It will cease administering the stadium
• It will no longer pay annual capital expense agreements, currently $700,000 annually.
• It will forgo annual ticket and parking revenue sharing – which netted the city $581,200 in 2018-2019. But anticipated development will yield an estimated $7 million in annual tax revenues.

there would be no taxpayer stadium funding and no impact to Anaheim’s budget — except to add to it.


What Will The Disposition and Development Agreement (DDA) Do?
The purchase and sale agreement (PSA) the city council will vote on this December 20 pertains to the ownership of the stadium site.

• The DDA that will be hammered out in early 2020 will govern how the land is developed. Among the things it covers:
• Development timelines
• Schedule for plan submittal
• Community benefits such as affordable housing, additional park and public amenities, local hiring and other labor agreements.
• A fair-market value will be assigned to city-requested community benefits and applied against the sale price.

Yields Revenue To 2030 Neighborhood Investment Program
At his State of the City speech earlier this year, Mayor Sidhu announced his 2030 Neighborhood Investment Program to invest $250 million in additional revenue into neighborhood improvements during the next decade. The newly-formed non-profit Anaheim First partnered with the city to conduct a series of district-based town halls and online community survey as part of creating an Anaheim Community Assessment. The assessment would serve as a resident-driven blueprint to help guide council decisions on prioritizing the $250 million.


Sidhu is expected to push for using the bulk of stadium sales revenues to fund the Neighborhood Investment Program. Naysayers such as Councilman Jose F. Moreno claimed the mayor would not be able to finance this plan to improve neighborhoods. Once again, they were wrong.<<

 

[Jiggsawpuzzle35]

Has someone gotten a quote yet from Councilman Moreno yet on what he and his Union thugs think?