All things Knotts Berry Farm

Phrubruh

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I'm glad that Knott's and CF are doing well. That usually ends up being good news for most everybody.

But, one of the things that always seemed to stand out to me when comparing Disneyland to Knott's (and Magic Mountain) was their comparative ride throughput. (Disclaimer - I haven't been to Knott's or MM in well over 5 years) It seemed to me that both those parks constantly ran coasters with less than optimal number of operating trains, leading to longer wait times. Part of it might be due to the ride design itself. Montezuma's Revenge is clearly only going to run one train :) , and other coasters likely don't have as many brake blocks as a ride like Space Mountain, Big Thunder or Screamin'. Otherwise, I suspect it's due to keeping down maintenance costs by running fewer trains less often. It always kind of irked me waiting in line seeing one train dispatched, with no train waiting to roll into the station to replace it.

Is this still the typical M.O.?
I don't really see that practice at Knotts however Magic Mountain does it all the time even when the place is packed. Knott's coasters such as Hang Time has three cars on the track. Silver Bullet, Ghost Rider, Excellerator and Jaguar have two. Obviously Montezuma only has one. I can't see them operating more than that. The rides aren't designed for it.

However over at Magic Mountain, you always see things like Goliath, Riddler's Revenge and Batman have one train on the track. It still takes the employees 4-8 minutes to load/dispatch each train. There seems to be a lot of waiting between people getting on and dispatch. That kind of thing made me mad at Magic Mountain as I watch employees more interested in talking to each other than dispatching trains.

Disneyland's coasters are designed for a large number of trains at the same time. You never see this at other parks. They dispatch trains ever thirty seconds or so. It's pretty amazing. That is the kind of thing I wish I could see more of at other parks. Why can't coasters be designed for 3-4 trains at the same time? Even Chase the Baby can do four trains at once.
 

RobWDW1971

Well-Known Member
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I don't really see that practice at Knotts however Magic Mountain does it all the time even when the place is packed. Knott's coasters such as Hang Time has three cars on the track. Silver Bullet, Ghost Rider, Excellerator and Jaguar have two. Obviously Montezuma only has one. I can't see them operating more than that. The rides aren't designed for it.

However over at Magic Mountain, you always see things like Goliath, Riddler's Revenge and Batman have one train on the track. It still takes the employees 4-8 minutes to load/dispatch each train. There seems to be a lot of waiting between people getting on and dispatch. That kind of thing made me mad at Magic Mountain as I watch employees more interested in talking to each other than dispatching trains.

Disneyland's coasters are designed for a large number of trains at the same time. You never see this at other parks. They dispatch trains ever thirty seconds or so. It's pretty amazing. That is the kind of thing I wish I could see more of at other parks. Why can't coasters be designed for 3-4 trains at the same time? Even Chase the Baby can do four trains at once.
The only time I see this at Knott's is on the mine train - I have been there a couple of times where it goes several minutes with no train in the station for no apparent reason.
 

NobodyElse

Well-Known Member
I don't really see that practice at Knotts however Magic Mountain does it all the time even when the place is packed. Knott's coasters such as Hang Time has three cars on the track. Silver Bullet, Ghost Rider, Excellerator and Jaguar have two. Obviously Montezuma only has one. I can't see them operating more than that. The rides aren't designed for it.

However over at Magic Mountain, you always see things like Goliath, Riddler's Revenge and Batman have one train on the track. It still takes the employees 4-8 minutes to load/dispatch each train. There seems to be a lot of waiting between people getting on and dispatch. That kind of thing made me mad at Magic Mountain as I watch employees more interested in talking to each other than dispatching trains.

Disneyland's coasters are designed for a large number of trains at the same time. You never see this at other parks. They dispatch trains ever thirty seconds or so. It's pretty amazing. That is the kind of thing I wish I could see more of at other parks. Why can't coasters be designed for 3-4 trains at the same time? Even Chase the Baby can do four trains at once.
Apparently GhostRider has three trains, but they only run two (presumably performing maintenance on the third, then rotating it back in while rotating another out). Couldn't they safely run at lest three trains if they desired (and had the stock)?
 

Phrubruh

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The only time I see this at Knott's is on the mine train - I have been there a couple of times where it goes several minutes with no train in the station for no apparent reason.
I think that is pretty rare. Every time I've been there, there is always a train unloading as the other loads. That is the reason they wait on the outside tressel to see if the unload area is clear. I think they run at least three trains and maybe even four sometimes.
 

Phrubruh

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Apparently GhostRider has three trains, but they only run two (presumably performing maintenance on the third, then rotating it back in while rotating another out). Couldn't they safely run at least three trains if they desired (and had the stock)?
One loading. One unloading and one on the track. It means they only have the ride time to get that train dispatched before the next one comes into the waiting area.
 

NobodyElse

Well-Known Member
One loading. One unloading and one on the track. It means they only have the ride time to get that train dispatched before the next one comes into the waiting area.
See, I told you it's been a while for me. :) So, they have separate load and unload zones? If so, that implies to me that they could have two in the station, one on the lift hill, one on the course, and one in the final brake run if desired. (I could also be misunderstanding how modern coasters safely and efficiently operate.)

EDIT: I found this on Quora:
"An example of a longer attraction with no block breaks is Ghost Rider at Knott's Berry Farm - they can only have one train on and one train loading. The one in the station cannot dispatched until the one on the track he reached the final brake run. As an example of one with many block zones, picture Big Thunder Mountain at Disneyland . Each of its 3 lift hills act as a block/hold zone, Counting the final brake run, they have 4 hold zones - of which one must remain clear so vehicles can advance - and 2 loading stations, so they are able to run up to 5 trains."

That doesn't seem like the best design for Ghostrider, but oh well.
 
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Phrubruh

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
See, I told you it's been a while for me. :) So, they have separate load and unload zones? If so, that implies to me that they could have two in the station, one on the lift hill, one on the course, and one in the final brake run if desired. (I could also be misunderstanding how modern coasters safely and efficiently operate.)
In the case of Ghost Rider and Hang Time there is one loading, one final break area and one on the track. Excellerator only has two. One loading and other in the final break area. Coast Rider is a wild mouse like Goofy's Sky school. Cars are constantly moving on a conveyor belt and dispatched as the leave the loading area. They also have a large break area so multiple cars can wait at once. I would love to see Knotts build something like Big Thunder or Space Mountain where multiple trains are on the track at once. That kind of ride is rare outside of Disney.
 

DavidDL

Active Member
My experience with Knott's/Magic Mountain regarding grouping (which Disney pretty much always staffs regardless) has been: Knott's has them which keeps things going smoothly but tends to not staff the position on days/seasons they anticipate to be slow. On those days, there's usually just an employee telling you to take any row you want.

However, every time I have been to Magic Mountain, the latter has always been the case regardless of crowd level (minus the interaction of telling folks to spread out). Even on very busy days they will never have an employee assigning Guests to rows and instead will just let folks fend for themselves, sometimes with no communication or attention paid whatsoever. It's especially frustrating when you realize that most of the time, the reason their more popular coasters have 2-3 hour waits is because Guests aren't filling the middle rows and are instead creating a back up for everyone behind them because the majority of them refuse to take any row that isn't the very front or the very back. I can only imagine how much more efficient those rides would be and how much shorter the wait times would be if they'd simply keep the grouper position staffed.

Those are just my experiences, though. I don't visit the parks nearly as much as the Disney ones so I can't speak to all 365 days worth of operation.
 

Phrubruh

Well-Known Member
Original Poster

Nirya

Well-Known Member
Knotts needs a maze in the red barn themed to boxing and wrestling. Imagine being body slammed by undead wrestlers.
No joke this would be my favorite maze of all-time if it ever happened.

Too bad they went and put Curse of Calico there last year and that the maze was so good, because it won’t be leaving for a good while.
 

cmwade77

Active Member
Cedar Fair Press Release

>>Cedar Fair Reports Record Results for 2019; Declares Quarterly Cash Distribution

  • Strong performance driven by increases in attendance (+8%), in-park per capita spending (+1%) and out-of-park revenues (+11%)
  • Company sees significant increase in sale of 2020 season passes and all-season products
  • Company sets new long-term annual Adjusted EBITDA1 target of $600 million2 by 2024
Cedar Fair Entertainment Company (NYSE: FUN), a leader in regional amusement parks, water parks and immersive entertainment, today reported record net revenues for its full-year and fourth-quarter 2019 results. The Company also announced a new long-term Adjusted EBITDA growth target.

Full-year 2019 results are not directly comparable with full-year 2018, as 2019 includes results from the operations of the two Schlitterbahn water parks since their July 1, 2019 acquisition date. For purposes of same-park discussions, current year data excludes the results of the Schlitterbahn water parks.

2019 Highlights

  • Net revenues increased 9% to a record $1.47 billion; same-park net revenues were up 6%.
  • Attendance at Cedar Fair's parks increased 8% to a record 27.9 million guests; same-park attendance increased 5%.
  • In-park per capita spending increased 1% to a record $48.32; in-park per capita spending on a same-park basis was up 1%.
  • Out-of-park revenues were up 11% to a record $169 million; same-park out-of-park revenues increased 8%.
  • Net income increased 36%, or $46 million, to $172 million and Adjusted EBITDA increased 8%, or $37 million, to $505 million. On a same-park basis, net income increased 27%, or $34 million, and Adjusted EBITDA3 increased 5%, or $21 million.
  • Through Dec. 31, 2019, sales of 2020 season passes and related all-season products, are up more than 40% from the same time last year.
<<
And Knotts is their highest performing park at present.
 

cmwade77

Active Member
I'm glad that Knott's and CF are doing well. That usually ends up being good news for most everybody.

But, one of the things that always seemed to stand out to me when comparing Disneyland to Knott's (and Magic Mountain) was their comparative ride throughput. (Disclaimer - I haven't been to Knott's or MM in well over 5 years) It seemed to me that both those parks constantly ran coasters with less than optimal number of operating trains, leading to longer wait times. Part of it might be due to the ride design itself. Montezuma's Revenge is clearly only going to run one train :) , and other coasters likely don't have as many brake blocks as a ride like Space Mountain, Big Thunder or Screamin'. Otherwise, I suspect it's due to keeping down maintenance costs by running fewer trains less often. It always kind of irked me waiting in line seeing one train dispatched, with no train waiting to roll into the station to replace it.

Is this still the typical M.O.?
It depends, if it isn't a busy day, they may only run one train, otherwise where possible multiple will run.
 

cmwade77

Active Member
Are there any planned closures for a week from today?
Here are the currently scheduled closures as listed on their website:
Mystery Lodge
Closed for refurbishment

Balloon Race
2/20/2020 – 2/21/2020

La Revolucion
2/17/2020 - 2/21/2020

Xcelerator
2/18/2020 - 2/28/2020

Linus Launcher
2/24/2020 - 2/28/2020

Jaguar!
2/24/2020 - 3/6/2020
 

cmwade77

Active Member
I think that is pretty rare. Every time I've been there, there is always a train unloading as the other loads. That is the reason they wait on the outside tressel to see if the unload area is clear. I think they run at least three trains and maybe even four sometimes.
I have seen up to 5 on the mine train.
 

PiratesMansion

Well-Known Member
Mystery Lodge was closed back in October with no reopening date given on the site at the time. Is this still the same closure?

Any word on what's being done?

Unrelated note, my current wish list for Knott's: Go back to the old logs on the Log Ride and add it back to Fastlane. Swapping it out for Calico Rapids was NOT an upgrade.
 

Phrubruh

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Mystery Lodge was closed back in October with no reopening date given on the site at the time. Is this still the same closure?

Any word on what's being done?

Unrelated note, my current wish list for Knott's: Go back to the old logs on the Log Ride and add it back to Fastlane. Swapping it out for Calico Rapids was NOT an upgrade.
It is still the same closure. It's been closed since last summer.
Also no sign of the Ghost Town expansion yet.
 

cmwade77

Active Member
Mystery Lodge was closed back in October with no reopening date given on the site at the time. Is this still the same closure?

Any word on what's being done?

Unrelated note, my current wish list for Knott's: Go back to the old logs on the Log Ride and add it back to Fastlane. Swapping it out for Calico Rapids was NOT an upgrade.
The log Ride has Fastlane, at least it did the other day.

Calico Rapids also has Fastlane.

Edit: I just checked the app and it does indeed list that it accepts Fastlane.
 

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