A sequel? Nah, not this one

[Dan Deesnee]

I’m guessing that one or both of the Chinese parks will have part of their ownership stake sold, or there will be no 50th anniversary at MK aside from banners.

This is likely it (if it's Park being sold related).

 

[lazyboy97o]

Right!? That's crazy. Could have done it for a third of that just using an off the shelf coaster and some VR gear. Not ideal but hellalot cheaper. Although 450 still seems like a ballooned amount. I can't imagine Disney "OKing" that budget. Crazy to think. What a waste.

Even large, custom coasters from the top manufacturers tend to be about $15 million. Since Disney has higher operational requirements a premium is expected, but even then the coaster itself is a small fraction of the cost.

*boggles* How is that even possible?!

Disney's biggest problems boil down to "too many cooks in the kitchen" and "design by committee." Too many committees in the kitchen? It's a problem all organizations face as they grow. Bob Gurr left in the 60s because he thought he was spending too much time in meetings and not enough time doing. On the one hand it makes some sense. When there is only one park and a couple of hotel, then fewer people can be responsible but as things grow more responsibility means more delegation, but people want to be involved. There are also plenty of stories of Walt Disney Imagineering delivering something that just does not work operationally, so you seek to avoid that by bringing in operators but at some point you've brought in so many stakeholder and their bosses and their bosses bosses that you have too many people involved. Things slow down or get radically changed when they're finally presented to the person with enough authority. It's one big delegation problem not just internally but also with the many vendors who are involved and are micromanaged. Actually delegating is now a huge risk as you are putting hundreds of millions of dollars on the line, top executives are involved in a way that is considered negative in movies (studio meddling), and the tasks of actually doing that streamlining has, until recently, successively been passed from executive-to-executive with no relevant experience.

How much of this 450 goes to paying the actors? Are they given royalties when doing something like theme park attractions, or is it a part of their movie deals?

Anyone have any insight as to how that part of these attractions play out?

TRON Light Cycle Power Run is also in the hundreds of millions of dollars. This is not one attraction that is exorbitantly expensive. Across the board, Disney's costs have risen dramatically.

If Chapek is known as the bean counter, how is it that his projects are beyond reasonable in cost? Seems ironic.

Furthermore, I would bet they bid everything out...how can it be that high Competitively?

How do you streamline a process with which you have absolutely no experience?

While Disney is great at seeking out as much as possible from vendors they also do not utilize the typical design-big-build process. Many attractions at least use elements of fast track project delivery where construction starts before design is complete, meaning the contractor is hired beforehand and paid for their work as it is performed. It also means the contractor is more than happy to rip out work because someone changed their mind. Work that is bid out is also incredibly micromanaged, in a lot of ways negating the benefits of bidding out the work in the first place.

 

[DVCakaCarlF]

Even large, custom coasters from the top manufacturers tend to be about $15 million. Since Disney has higher operational requirements a premium is expected, but even then the coaster itself is a small fraction of the cost.


Disney's biggest problems boil down to "too many cooks in the kitchen" and "design by committee." Too many committees in the kitchen? It's a problem all organizations face as they grow. Bob Gurr left in the 60s because he thought he was spending too much time in meetings and not enough time doing. On the one hand it makes some sense. When there is only one park and a couple of hotel, then fewer people can be responsible but as things grow more responsibility means more delegation, but people want to be involved. There are also plenty of stories of Walt Disney Imagineering delivering something that just does not work operationally, so you seek to avoid that by bringing in operators but at some point you've brought in so many stakeholder and their bosses and their bosses bosses that you have too many people involved. Things slow down or get radically changed when they're finally presented to the person with enough authority. It's one big delegation problem not just internally but also with the many vendors who are involved and are micromanaged. Actually delegating is now a huge risk as you are putting hundreds of millions of dollars on the line, top executives are involved in a way that is considered negative in movies (studio meddling), and the tasks of actually doing that streamlining has, until recently, successively been passed from executive-to-executive with no relevant experience.


TRON Light Cycle Power Run is also in the hundreds of millions of dollars. This is not one attraction that is exorbitantly expensive. Across the board, Disney's costs have risen dramatically.


How do you streamline a process with which you have absolutely no experience?

While Disney is great at seeking out as much as possible from vendors they also do not utilize the typical design-big-build process. Many attractions at least use elements of fast track project delivery where construction starts before design is complete, meaning the contractor is hired beforehand and paid for their work as it is performed. It also means the contractor is more than happy to rip out work because someone changed their mind. Work that is bid out is also incredibly micromanaged, in a lot of ways negating the benefits of bidding out the work in the first place.

Are you saying cost overruns are due to change orders and rework?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Are you saying cost overruns are due to change orders and rework?

Some. A lot of changes also happen during the design phase, which is why things can end up looking differently than concept art (although they have become better about using promotional art that is developed later in the process). Look at the Ratatouille expansion where the restrooms and stroller parking were relocated to add the crêperie after permits had been filed.

 

[scpergj]

WDI needs to adopt an Agile methodology - the transition would be slow and difficult but the results could, if done correctly, be amazing.
This is the methodology that Spacex is using quite successfully. It does require a very involved and knowledgable management team, however....

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Some. A lot of changes also happen during the design phase, which is why things can end up looking differently than concept art (although they have become better about using promotional art that is developed later in the process). Look at the Ratatouille expansion where the restrooms and stroller parking were relocated to add the crêperie after permits had been filed.

You'd think they'd want to stop bleeding money in such a fashion, though...it's possible so long as you're willing to give the proper people authority over projects and are willing to be more hands-off.

 

[DVCakaCarlF]

Some. A lot of changes also happen during the design phase, which is why things can end up looking differently than concept art (although they have become better about using promotional art that is developed later in the process). Look at the Ratatouille expansion where the restrooms and stroller parking were relocated to add the crêperie after permits had been filed.

So, ultimately, the excessive cost is due to the Disney premium and the number of people that have to be involved, correct?

 

[DVCakaCarlF]

You'd think they'd want to stop bleeding money in such a fashion, though...it's possible so long as you're willing to give the proper people authority over projects and are willing to be more hands-off.

Some parts of the construction industry are just hard and expensive to work in...working in active schools and airports requires hours during the nights and weekends, which results in overtime, etc.

I wonder if Disney has so many requirements and conditions for work, that those costs are just inherent to working there? Also, does Disney “cost” their property into each attraction? I have to think any utility upgrades are also factored in.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You'd think they'd want to stop bleeding money in such a fashion, though...it's possible so long as you're willing to give the proper people authority over projects and are willing to be more hands-off.

They do, which is exactly how Guardians of the Galaxy – Mission: Breakout! and Pixar Pier came into existence. It’s why Shanghai Disneyland was supposed to be this lean, Universal approach to building a park (although that different circumstances and Universal has become a lot more like Disney). The big question is who? Who do you give that much authority? Who do you decide to cut out of the process? A lot of those people became involved in the process for a reason. More fundamentally you can’t do that if you think anyone who would chose to work in the business is an idiot.

 

[DVCakaCarlF]

They do, which is exactly how Guardians of the Galaxy – Mission: Breakout! and Pixar Pier came into existence. It’s why Shanghai Disneyland was supposed to be this lean, Universal approach to building a park (although that different circumstances and Universal has become a lot more like Disney). The big question is who? Who do you give that much authority? Who do you decide to cut out of the process? A lot of those people became involved in the process for a reason. More fundamentally you can’t do that if you think anyone who would chose to work in the business is an idiot.

That’s interpretive - everything Joe Rohde has done is exceptional (sans dinoland), but I don’t know who the genius is currently behind Epcot.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That’s interpretive - everything Joe Rohde has done is exceptional (sans dinoland), but I don’t know who the genius is currently behind Epcot.

What’s interpretive?

 

[DVCakaCarlF]

What’s interpretive?

Referring to your comment as to who to trust in charge, etc.

 

[pheneix]

After being in Epcot yesterday its a sad sad park, was almost on the verge of depressing to me. Disney made an absolute mess for themselves with the unnecessary demolition. Nothing is open except the main rides, there is no atmosphere anymore, no entertainment (for all the reasons we know of course), only about four table service dining options etc, we ate the coral reef and it was totally empty. With all the circumstances going on plus the stupidity choices they made for changes its had the life sucked out of it. even the stores are not open anymore except for maybe one side or spot in each pavilion, the rest are shuttered.

Also of course this horrendous heat is not helping either and like already mentioned no park hopping and the headache of dealing with a park reservation. There is just no incentive to go passholder or not. Disney has a deep valley to climb its way out of with this park and its clearly not going to be any time soon. Sure its nice with no crowds but its the worst Ive ever seen it. It was a way too quiet ghost town. yet the line for frozen extends to china, that was the only exciting thing fun to watch. They could at least bring back impressions a few times during the day, no one is bothering with the lame singalong.

and regarding the polynesian tower, I really do hope that is truly canceled, they are just going to keep ruining the beautiful original surroundings. Is the plan still on to turn the grand floridian into a princess suites hotel?

Literally the only two things the park will have going for it are Ratatouille and Guardians. And the Guardians ride is really going to deliver. Rumors of giant planetarium domes similar in scale to the old Horizons space scenes. Show scenes in between. It's Revenge of the Mummy x100. It's probably the only thing about the parks I am bullish on tbh.

Others have commented that the core of FW is being redesigned. @marni1971 definitely closer to what's going on than I am. I know they intended to have temporary paths laid down by early 2021 at the latest. Maybe sooner if the park doesn't close.

Some more words on Epcot: the attractions there blow and everyone knows it. New Test Track did not age well. I did some ride thrus with guests in 2019 because my first ride had unexpected "LOL that was boring and basically sucked" convos on the exit run. Did another couple of laps... same outcome. The ride sucks. The high speed loops outside are the only thing going for it.

New Soarin is not that well regarded by normie theme park guests. Bad movie. Aging tech. Can't help the latter. I worked at Back to the Future. It sucks guys, but these rides age slowly and then very abruptly. Flights of Passage aged Simpsons and Soarin an extra 20 years just by existing.

Mission: Space -- nobody cares about this damn ride. WDI has a weird affinity for the thing. They got the same weird attachment to MouseGear and some of the other modern Epcot things that frankly, totally suck. I don't get it. Seems like they rammed the Space restaurant next to the ride in a last ditch effort to keep the building relevant.

Not sure on Grand Flo but they already wrecked the old Mizner's bar and upscale shops didn't they?

 

[pheneix]

If that were the case it would be closed by now.

GS is actually high for the park at the moment.

GSATs are at record levels all over Orlando because of the lower crowds. The parks don't feel like a power plant that's going critical.

 

[DVCakaCarlF]

Literally the only two things the park will have going for it are Ratatouille and Guardians. And the Guardians ride is really going to deliver. Rumors of giant planetarium domes similar in scale to the old Horizons space scenes. Show scenes in between. It's Revenge of the Mummy x100. It's probably the only thing about the parks I am bullish on tbh.

Others have commented that the core of FW is being redesigned. @marni1971 definitely closer to what's going on than I am. I know they intended to have temporary paths laid down by early 2021 at the latest. Maybe sooner if the park doesn't close.

Some more words on Epcot: the attractions there blow and everyone knows it. New Test Track did not age well. I did some ride thrus with guests in 2019 because my first ride had unexpected "LOL that was boring and basically sucked" convos on the exit run. Did another couple of laps... same outcome. The ride sucks. The high speed loops outside are the only thing going for it.

New Soarin is not that well regarded by normie theme park guests. Bad movie. Aging tech. Can't help the latter. I worked at Back to the Future. It sucks guys, but these rides age slowly and then very abruptly. Flights of Passage aged Simpsons and Soarin an extra 20 years just by existing.

Mission: Space -- nobody cares about this damn ride. WDI has a weird affinity for the thing. They got the same weird attachment to MouseGear and some of the other modern Epcot things that frankly, totally suck. I don't get it. Seems like they rammed the Space restaurant next to the ride in a last ditch effort to keep the building relevant.

Not sure on Grand Flo but they already wrecked the old Mizner's bar and upscale shops didn't they?

So what’s the tipping point to close Epcot? Why not just allow park hopping? If the vaccine comes out in the next 30-60 days, will park hopping be allowed? Capacities elevated? Looks like the restaurants are starting to open up.

 

[DVCakaCarlF]

Btw, the vaccine comment is towards anyone with any pulse on the thoughts of MGMT. are they hopping this will “open things up?”

 

[lumberguy5]

WDI needs to adopt an Agile methodology - the transition would be slow and difficult but the results could, if done correctly, be amazing.
This is the methodology that Spacex is using quite successfully. It does require a very involved and knowledgable management team, however....

Agile was originally for software development, while teams can do agile during R&D, concept, and design, building construction is inherently waterfall. Also SpaceX isn't risk averse, the loss of a single engine or even a Falcon booster is acceptable. Disney can't afford a unmitigated safety failure on anything inside the parks. If a ride causes a major injury the PR fallout would be immense.

Also Agile is fail fast, fail often, and repair/replace. One could argue that WDI are masters of agile as they waste immense amounts of project funds on rapid changes of construction projects and often have to make significant revisions during the build/QA process.

 

[Parker in NYC]

So what’s the tipping point to close Epcot? Why not just allow park hopping? If the vaccine comes out in the next 30-60 days, will park hopping be allowed? Capacities elevated? Looks like the restaurants are starting to open up.

30-60 days? Are we talking people years or dog years?

 

[SpaceMountain77]

Not sure on Grand Flo but they already wrecked the old Mizner's bar and upscale shops didn't they?

Ivy Trellis became a Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique, so, still a salon, but different target audience.

Commander Porter's was a loss, both thematic and in its offerings. Mens and womens travel wear shops are a staple in upscale hotels.

Curiouser Clothiers, which was Summer Lace, was tastefully reimagined. The carpeting, modern taper candle sconces, and wallpaper evoke feelings of a sophisticated, upscale boutique.

Mizner's Lounge was tired, but Enchanted Rose was the wrong reimagining. Personally, I think the forest room is unnecessary and the two added lobby-facing walls lack moulding details that match the original walls.

Overall, one win, two losses, and a net zero.

 

[Ldno]

450 Million for the ride? , that’s half of what GE’s cost. I am sooo expecting to find Avengers Campus East hidden under that building, seriously. I know we have seen the ”endgame” for the ride but damn I’m still waiting to walk in there and at least see myself in “knowhere” to say the least.

I saw a fake Uncle Disney article about disney moving to Texas the more I see what’s going on WDW and DL the more I hope they relocate for real, hehehe oh well.

Disney’s California’s Adventure sucked me and my family to go last year just to witness Soarin over California while they had the event going, witnessed the Electrical Parade for the limited amount of time, I feel sad for Epcot, might As well just re theme the whole area as Wakanda at this point heh. Talk about the future.