MK Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[Disstevefan1]

That’s not what is commonly meant by scope cutting. Proposals are devised with a budget in mind, and while there might be multiple proposals to pick from with different budgets attached, scope cuts occur after a given proposal and its budget have been approved and are generally the result of overruns, unforeseen issues, etc.

I was told by folks smarter then me here that projects are scope cut when they have run out of money (or will run out ) of the money that was budgeted for a given attraction and they need to scope cut to fit the budget.

I was told its usually not due to a budget cut; they initially were given this much to do something and money was taken away.

If they are forced to stay within the budget here, I suspect there will be scope cuts to stay within budget because the longer it takes to build something, the more it costs to build.

Who knows, maybe the Disney spreadsheeters will let them spend what they need to spend to deliver a world class land and attraction?????

 

[James Alucobond]

I was told by folks smarter then me here that projects are scope cut when they have run out of money (or will run out ) of the money that was budgeted for a given attraction and they need to scope cut to fit the budget.

I was told its usually not due to a budget cut; they initially were given this much to do something and money was taken away.

If they are forced to stay within the budget here, I suspect there will be scope cuts to stay within budget because the longer it takes to build something, the more it costs to build.

The budget is devised as part of the proposal based on the expected spend. The "spreadsheeters", as you call them, do not come up with how much a specific project will cost; they allocate what they are told the budget will be by the designers when a project is approved. Budgets are supposed to account for things like research and development, the build schedule, anticipated pricing changes over time, etc., but they are obviously not always perfect. Scope cuts occur when the costs exceed the original ask.

Who knows, maybe the Disney spreadsheeters will let them spend what they need to spend to deliver a world class land and attraction?????

You act like Imagineering isn't already requesting hundreds of millions for these projects.

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

It's been a while since anyone has talked about the potential ride system here. Are we thinking Test Track with texture, a la Belgium Blocks, to be "offroad?"

 

[James Alucobond]

I agree, WDI does have a bad habit of spending WAY too much money on things that are not needed,

The point is that the upthread suggestion was that the purse strings were held too tightly when, within the context of any given project, they are held exactly as tightly as requested in the proposal. You can argue that others are at fault with regard to total spend on the parks and resorts, but that's a separate issue.

 

[ChrisFL]

It's been a while since anyone has talked about the potential ride system here. Are we thinking Test Track with texture, a la Belgium Blocks, to be "offroad?"

I don't know, but whatever it is, it will probably be closed pretty frequently during the summer(rainy) months

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

I don't know, but whatever it is, it will probably be closed pretty frequently during the summer(rainy) months

Maybe they should have considered that before moving forward on this project...

 

[Disstevefan1]

The budget is devised as part of the proposal based on the expected spend. The "spreadsheeters", as you call them, do not come up with how much a specific project will cost; they allocate what they are told the budget will be by the designers when a project is approved. Budgets are supposed to account for things like research and development, the build schedule, anticipated pricing changes over time, etc., but they are obviously not always perfect. Scope cuts occur when the costs exceed the original ask.

You act like Imagineering isn't already requesting hundreds of millions for these projects.

TBH, I have no idea how it works, but if imagineering could “request” a budget, they would request way more than they need to be able to end up with enough of a budget to do something with.

I do defer to the experts on these boards, but if imagineering “requested” a budget for the world celebration area, WOW did they blow it there! I guess they used up are the money they “requested” on Moana?

Someone correct me but it’s the Disney spreadsheeters who control the budgets, not the creative folks!

Could you imagine what could be built if the creatives were allowed to build their vision with no regard to budget (kinda like Walt did it)?

We can argue about this for the next 3 to 5 years it’s going to take to build whatever they are trying to build in the former RoA area, but my guess it’s money that determines what we get and not creativity.

I can hear the Disney spreadsheeters now-
“Imagineers, you got this much money to make a Cars thing here. Get creatin’”

 

[James Alucobond]

TBH, I have no idea how it works, but if imagineering could “request” a budget, they would request way more than they need to be able to end up with enough of a budget to do something with.

...

Someone correct me but it’s the Disney spreadsheeters who control the budgets, not the creative folks!

You act like they just ask for a random dollar amount with no further elaboration. They show their work in great detail, and if something they ask for is tremendously out of step with reality, they'll of course be questioned about it. Regardless, by the time you as a layperson start seeing plan-based artwork or (especially) a model, everything shown is part of the proposal and has ostensibly been accounted for in the approved budget.

I do defer to the experts on these boards, but if imagineering “requested” a budget for the world celebration area, WOW did they blow it there! I guess they used up are the money they “requested” on Moana?

I feel like you've raised this exact topic before, but I guess the answer needs repeating. EPCOT's 40th is one of the rare instances of genuine budget cuts after project initiation, resulting from their response to COVID. While Ratatouille, Space 220, Cosmic Rewind, Journey of Water, and CommuniCore East escaped largely unscathed from the original budget plans, everything else was cancelled, delayed indefinitely, or hastily reworked to cost much less (PLAY!, Poppins, Celebration Gardens, Spaceship Earth, Festival Center, etc.). In this case, it had nothing to do with them cutting scope due to running out of the funds that were originally requested; previously allocated funds were pulled back.

 

[Incomudro]

You act like they just ask for a random dollar amount with no further elaboration. They show their work in great detail, and if something they ask for is tremendously out of step with reality, they'll of course be questioned about it. Regardless, by the time you as a layperson start seeing plan-based artwork or (especially) a model, everything shown is part of the proposal and has ostensibly been accounted for in the approved budget.

I feel like you've raised this exact topic before, but I guess the answer needs repeating. EPCOT's 40th is one of the rare instances of genuine budget cuts after project initiation, resulting from their response to COVID. While Ratatouille, Space 220, Cosmic Rewind, Journey of Water, and CommuniCore East escaped largely unscathed from the original budget plans, everything else was cancelled, delayed indefinitely, or hastily reworked to cost much less (PLAY!, Poppins, Celebration Gardens, Spaceship Earth, Festival Center, etc.). In this case, it had nothing to do with them cutting scope due to running out of the funds that were originally requested; previously allocated funds were pulled back.

This is insightful, thank you.

 

[Dreamer19]

TBH, I have no idea how it works, but if imagineering could “request” a budget, they would request way more than they need to be able to end up with enough of a budget to do something with.

I do defer to the experts on these boards, but if imagineering “requested” a budget for the world celebration area, WOW did they blow it there! I guess they used up are the money they “requested” on Moana?

Someone correct me but it’s the Disney spreadsheeters who control the budgets, not the creative folks!

Could you imagine what could be built if the creatives were allowed to build their vision with no regard to budget (kinda like Walt did it)?

We can argue about this for the next 3 to 5 years it’s going to take to build whatever they are trying to build in the former RoA area, but my guess it’s money that determines what we get and not creativity.

I can hear the Disney spreadsheeters now-
“Imagineers, you got this much money to make a Cars thing here. Get creatin’”

This is a good time to promote watching “Disneyland Handcrafted”, that excellent documentary on the construction of Disneyland. Incredible watch, even just for the sheer bravery, risk taking and overall disregard for strict budget of everyone involved. It paid off. They built something great and it only took them a year. Funny how times change and how change isn’t always a good thing.

I don’t know how Cars Land Florida will turn out, but I do know that there are no Walt Disneys working at the Walt Disney Company.

 

[lazyboy97o]

TBH, I have no idea how it works, but if imagineering could “request” a budget, they would request way more than they need to be able to end up with enough of a budget to do something with.

I do defer to the experts on these boards, but if imagineering “requested” a budget for the world celebration area, WOW did they blow it there! I guess they used up are the money they “requested” on Moana?

Someone correct me but it’s the Disney spreadsheeters who control the budgets, not the creative folks!

Could you imagine what could be built if the creatives were allowed to build their vision with no regard to budget (kinda like Walt did it)?

We can argue about this for the next 3 to 5 years it’s going to take to build whatever they are trying to build in the former RoA area, but my guess it’s money that determines what we get and not creativity.

I can hear the Disney spreadsheeters now-
“Imagineers, you got this much money to make a Cars thing here. Get creatin’”

If you have no idea how it works then why keep making comments about it?

Walt had budgets. They were painfully obvious at times. The Matterhorn didn’t get fully finished interior scenes until a decade after Walt’s death.

There is an entire phase of design called Feasibility. This phase comes after Blue Sky and Concept Design where the actual design on whether or not to build a project is made. While Walt Disney Imagineering doesn’t set or control project funding they have their own team of estimators who have already been working on and reviewing the project. The Concept Design is reviewed and vetted and Walt Disney Imagineering determines if it is feasible and requests official permission to proceed.

Fans talk about concept art and things being vague, but a full Concept Design package is a lot more than just some vague artwork. It is a comprehensive presentation of the creative intent of the project. There is of course concept art, but also written treatments, drawing packages for showset design, architecture and sometimes engineering. If there aren’t engineering drawings, there’s at least narratives describing the systems involved. Ride systems have been selected. It’s often at least a year of work.

Despite all of that work it’s still nowhere near enough information to actually build the project. The phases of design, which are not unique to Disney, progressively add more detail. A strong concept design has the creative intent and general forms determined. Any estimate when a project is approved is based on educated guesses. These are highly custom, one off projects; not a McDonald’s. Estimates are based on as close as possible comparisons. They also include contingencies as well as try to account for external factors like cost escalation.

One of the positive changes since Iger took over is that Walt Disney Imagineering was afforded greater flexibility when it came to allocating resources to specific aspects of a larger project. This is the source of big scope cuts of entire programmatic elements like an entire dining venue or ride. The determination is that it’s better to do one thing well instead of two things poorly, so something might get cut to free up funding to plus something else.

That doesn’t mean that Walt Disney Imagineering is without criticism. There’s plenty to criticism about their project management process and the bloated bureaucracy involved in completing a project. There’s also plenty to criticize about their creative decisions. But they aren’t just given a random number and told to build a ride. They are very much involved in the process.

 

[Nickm2022]

Permits

 

[Disstevefan1]

You act like they just ask for a random dollar amount with no further elaboration. They show their work in great detail, and if something they ask for is tremendously out of step with reality, they'll of course be questioned about it. Regardless, by the time you as a layperson start seeing plan-based artwork or (especially) a model, everything shown is part of the proposal and has ostensibly been accounted for in the approved budget.

I feel like you've raised this exact topic before, but I guess the answer needs repeating. EPCOT's 40th is one of the rare instances of genuine budget cuts after project initiation, resulting from their response to COVID. While Ratatouille, Space 220, Cosmic Rewind, Journey of Water, and CommuniCore East escaped largely unscathed from the original budget plans, everything else was cancelled, delayed indefinitely, or hastily reworked to cost much less (PLAY!, Poppins, Celebration Gardens, Spaceship Earth, Festival Center, etc.). In this case, it had nothing to do with them cutting scope due to running out of the funds that were originally requested; previously allocated funds were pulled back.

Complaining on these boards is my copium for losing the fountain of Nations

You as the expert tell us Imagineering requests an amount for a given project with great detail.

Thanks for the info.

Since you as the expert, know Imagineering made the right estimate they will use both their excellent budget calculation skills as well as their excellent creative skills to build a world class land.

Oh yea, thanks for reminding me, EPCOT's world celebration was a rare budget cut, and although I was corrected on these boards and told it was a scope cut (drink em if you got em) I will defer to your expert knowledge.

As a regular know nothing, I will just wait and see what happens. Sadly it will be a long wait...

 

[James Alucobond]

I have no inside knowledge of Imagineering. I am just sharing very basic information about the design process. I never claimed to know the budget calculations for Piston Peak or Villains, and I likewise never indicated any opinion about whether or not their proposal requested sufficient funding (since I obviously have no idea what they requested and would not have the necessary expertise to second-guess them anyway). In fact, I criticized the outcome for their spend on Cosmic Rewind just a page ago.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I have no inside knowledge of Imagineering. I am just sharing very basic information about the design process. I never claimed to know the budget calculations for Piston Peak or Villains, and I likewise never indicated any opinion about whether or not their proposal requested sufficient funding (since I obviously have no idea what they requested and would not have the necessary expertise to second-guess them anyway). In fact, I criticized the outcome for their spend on Cosmic Rewind just a page ago.

I will tell you, if this Cars thing goes south, I will not blame imagineering for misquoting the budget or making design mistakes, I will always blame the Disney spreadsheeters because if just feels right to me.

 

[FigmentFan82]

I’m crossing my fingers that when this land opens, it will have at least one if not too quick serve type food offerings that are nicely themed to the cars IP.

 

[James Alucobond]

I’m crossing my fingers that when this land opens, it will have at least one if not too quick serve type food offerings that are nicely themed to the cars IP.

Snacks will potentially happen, but I'm almost positive there will be no large quick service.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Walt had budgets. They were painfully obvious at times.

he spent his own cash sometimes too…. Steam Trains, Riverboat, monorail are examples.

 

[James Alucobond]

Easier to retheme Pecos Bill. I do expect dining in Villain Land.

It feels like each land is supposed to have one signature quick service, so you've got Casey's Corner, Cosmic Ray's, Village Haus, Columbia Harbor House, Pecos Bill, and the now-missing Adventureland Veranda. Since Piston Peak is part of Frontierland, it is very unlikely they'd include one due to redundancy, plus the footprint we've seen thus far just doesn't seem to support it. For Villains, I'm thinking they'll perhaps forgo quick service in favor of table service and snacks, or if there is a QS, it'll lack a significant seating area like some of the lesser ones elsewhere in the park.

 

[BrianLo]

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