Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Indy_UK]

They must be running both systems.

I can't see them doing all this rebranding and the app updates so people can book in advance and then decide to take it all away. Although I would prefer they did a single more expensive option, going from free fastpass, to paid Genie+ to $200 or so Universal type pass would send the casuals into meltdown

 

[SoFloMagic]

It could, but unless sales were very low it would severely limit capacity available for LLMP because you would need to hold back capacity for the premium product and still have some left for standby. It’s possible but there are already gripes about rides not being available and this would make it much worse.

An alternative would be to eliminate LLMP, but add more rides to individual LL. So maybe all tier 1s go to individual and they would be priced accordingly and when they sell out they sell out. Then people who don’t buy the premium product can pick and choose which rides they want to skip the line. So for example if they want a 50/50 split between LL and standby and they know how many premium passes were sold they can release the rest of the 50% of LL capacity into an individual ride product.

As a local, I endorse this model. Would love to buy a single ride for, say, $8-10

 

[C33Mom]

I think you and @Touchdown have good points here, let me interject a few random thoughts as the caffeine hasn't hit me yet.

1. Would Disney have the data of the following:
   1. People who have done the VIP tour and wouldn't again because of the cost?
   2. People who may have inquired about the VIP tour but passed on it because of the cost?
   3. People who have purchased G+ or LLMP who have higher spend profiles (club level, deluxe stays, high income, large ticket packages, high spend in merch/dining, frequent visitors) that have responded unfavorably to the current system?

If Disney does have this information, could Disney be considering that there is a untapped market for a middle option between LLMP and VIP where they weren't converting LLMP to VIP?

There may be a Goldie Locks price point where they would convert LLMP to this new pass but also not cannibalize VIP sales but also not make it insanely popular. Remember how they thought G+ would only be purchased by 25% of guests prior to launch? Is this an evolution to this?

I mostly fall into group 3 (we might be group 2, but technically we don’t do VIP because my husband doesn’t want a Disney CM with us all day, though I suspect we’d do it at least once a trip if it was $1-2k instead of $4k)— but we definitely fall into the “happy to spend much more money to make the day less stressful” however the current system still requires you to wake at 7AM if you want to ride Cosmic Rewind and to get up and hit the parks early if you want to get LLMP to work well…and you can’t just approach the rides in the most convenient manner, you’re at the mercy of LL availability. We visited with the new system in August when crowds were manageable and it worked OK, but we’ve already cut our Thanksgiving trip from 8 days to 5 days and we’re considering cutting it down further because I doubt LLMP will be great with late Nov crowds.

Responding to @lentesta’s original point, I think there are non-trivial expenses (cast member salary, benefits, training—but also the extra golf carts, vehicles, insurance, logistical background expenses) in VIP, and if they could get the same amount per person for an express pass, the margins would be far higher— so I’m not sure they care about cannibalizing VIP? Also, Disney is already testing out an even more VIP experience (not sure if it’s at WDW or only DLR), so they could keep plussing VIP, double the cost, and then intentionally “cannibalize” the low end VIP clientele.

Finally, thinking about capacity, I think if the new pass was unlimited rides (or even once per attraction), and all or nothing for length of stay— lots of people would buy it to have it but wouldn’t actually ride more than 5-10 rides a day across all parks. I think many of the kind of people who buy a $500/person express pass just for convenience might not actually be park warriors trying to maximize rides... and if you require length of stay it’s even harder to keep up that pace.

 

[wdisney9000]

There's definitely guests willing to pay the higher prices for services like this but at the same time, I'm sure Disney is well aware of the articles online in regards to families going into debt to pay for a Disney vacation.

It's an interesting play if they do announce more higher price services to make an already expensive vacation less stresfull, but again, at more cost to the guest.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I mostly fall into group 3 (we might be group 2, but technically we don’t do VIP because my husband doesn’t want a Disney CM with us all day, though I suspect we’d do it at least once a trip if it was $1-2k instead of $4k)— but we definitely fall into the “happy to spend much more money to make the day less stressful” however the current system still requires you to wake at 7AM if you want to ride Cosmic Rewind and to get up and hit the parks early if you want to get LLMP to work well…and you can’t just approach the rides in the most convenient manner, you’re at the mercy of LL availability. We visited with the new system in August when crowds were manageable and it worked OK, but we’ve already cut our Thanksgiving trip from 8 days to 5 days and we’re considering cutting it down further because I doubt LLMP will be great with late Nov crowds.

Responding to @lentesta’s original point, I think there are non-trivial expenses (cast member salary, benefits, training—but also the extra golf carts, vehicles, insurance, logistical background expenses) in VIP, and if they could get the same amount per person for an express pass, the margins would be far higher— so I’m not sure they care about cannibalizing VIP? Also, Disney is already testing out an even more VIP experience (not sure if it’s at WDW or only DLR), so they could keep plussing VIP, double the cost, and then intentionally “cannibalize” the low end VIP clientele.

Finally, thinking about capacity, I think if the new pass was unlimited rides (or even once per attraction), and all or nothing for length of stay— lots of people would buy it to have it but wouldn’t actually ride more than 5-10 rides a day across all parks. I think many of the kind of people who buy a $500/person express pass just for convenience might not actually be park warriors trying to maximize rides... and if you require length of stay it’s even harder to keep up that pace.

It's an interesting thought that maybe they are ok cannibalizing a percentage of the VIP tours if they are able to "plus" them, make them feel even more exclusive and then increase the price.

If they loss 20% of the number of VIP tours but increase the cost of the remaining 80% by 25% they are at the same total revenue from them, and then open up this new revenue stream from the Premier Pass which should attract people that aren't willing to do / pay for the VIP tour

And none of this is really targeted at the average guest but can add another option for the small % willing and able to pay premier pricing for the elevated and easier experience

 

[Jrb1979]

It's an interesting thought that maybe they are ok cannibalizing a percentage of the VIP tours if they are able to "plus" them, make them feel even more exclusive and then increase the price.

If they loss 20% of the number of VIP tours but increase the cost of the remaining 80% by 25% they are at the same total revenue from them, and then open up this new revenue stream from the Premier Pass which should attract people that aren't willing to do / pay for the VIP tour

And none of this is really targeted at the average guest but can add another option for the small % willing and able to pay premier pricing for the elevated and easier experience

I'm still surprised that the majority of guests are happy with 3 short waits a day. Why wouldn't you want to pay more for having access to all rides when you want without a schedule

 

[GoofGoof]

I'm still surprised that the majority of guests are happy with 3 short waits a day. Why wouldn't you want to pay more for having access to all rides when you want without a schedule

I think that depends on the details.

We are a family of 4. If we go in the Summer we almost always get 10 day park tickets and spread the park time out with some days being maybe 3 or 4 hours of park time for the whole day. I wouldn’t do this if I had to buy 10 single day tickets but the cost difference between a 5 day ticket and a 10 day ticket is less than $100 per person so I have no issue spreading things out when those extra days are costing me less than $20 a day. We also enjoy spending some time just relaxing at the resort and pool so for me it’s not all about maximizing the per ride value of each park ticket day. It’s more about making the overall experience as enjoyable as possible.

On some of the shorter park days I would say it’s very possible we only do 5 or 6 rides that day and some of those probably don’t need LL. We may do some shows or entertainment, eat a meal and shop as well. Is it worth it to buy LLMP for those days? I’d say maybe, maybe not. In our recent trip we definitely had a few days where we bought in and probably didn’t need it. I was certainly happy to not be awake on any day of my trip at 7am. We got Tiana with LLMP and it was actually running and we bought individual LL for Tron and Guardians so no need for a virtual queue.

Would I want to pay significantly more for a product that gives me all the rides? On some days, maybe but most of the time, no not really. If I had 1 or 2 days at WDW and wanted to try to do a lot of rides I’d definitely be interested in buying in but that’s not my typical experience. If the new product required you to buy for length of stay (as some have suggested) I’d definitely not be interested. Assuming a price of $250pp if our family bought 10 day tickets it would cost us $10K . We spent a little over $1K on LLs over 10 days this last trip and now knowing the way it works better could get that down to about $700 easily. With the current system we did not wait over 20 mins for anything over 10 days and rode every ride we wanted to with many repeats.

 

[Jrb1979]

I think that depends on the details.

We are a family of 4. If we go in the Summer we almost always get 10 day park tickets and spread the park time out with some days being maybe 3 or 4 hours of park time for the whole day. I wouldn’t do this if I had to buy 10 single day tickets but the cost difference between a 5 day ticket and a 10 day ticket is less than $100 per person so I have no issue spreading things out when those extra days are costing me less than $20 a day. We also enjoy spending some time just relaxing at the resort and pool so for me it’s not all about maximizing the per ride value of each park ticket day. It’s more about making the overall experience as enjoyable as possible.

On some of the shorter park days I would say it’s very possible we only do 5 or 6 rides that day and some of those probably don’t need LL. We may do some shows or entertainment, eat a meal and shop as well. Is it worth it to buy LLMP for those days? I’d say maybe, maybe not. In our recent trip we definitely had a few days where we bought in and probably didn’t need it. I was certainly happy to not be awake on any day of my trip at 7am. We got Tiana with LLMP and it was actually running and we bought individual LL for Tron and Guardians so no need for a virtual queue.

Would I want to pay significantly more for a product that gives me all the rides? On some days, maybe but most of the time, no not really. If I had 1 or 2 days at WDW and wanted to try to do a lot of rides I’d definitely be interested in buying in but that’s not my typical experience. If the new product required you to buy for length of stay (as some have suggested) I’d definitely not be interested. Assuming a price of $250pp if our family bought 10 day tickets it would cost us $10K . We spent a little over $1K on LLs over 10 days this last trip and now knowing the way it works better could get that down to about $700 easily. With the current system we did not wait over 20 mins for anything over 10 days and rode every ride we wanted to with many repeats.

That makes sense. It's no wonder the current system is so liked. Many guests are like your family. They don't go to Disney for attractions necessarily. They go there for the experience and atmosphere.

 

[GoofGoof]

That makes sense. It's no wonder the current system is so liked. Many guests are like your family. They don't go to Disney for attractions necessarily. They go there for the experience and atmosphere.

I think it’s mostly a Disney World thing and especially in the Summer. I have never gone to Universal FL without Express Pass and have never had more than a 2 or 3 day park ticket. It is absolutely worth the extra cost of the deluxe hotel room for a night to get front of the line for all 4 of us for 2 days. Even for DLR we did 3 days in the parks the last time we were there and did use Max Pass but we spent way more time in the parks each day (75 and sunny makes it enjoyable to spend all day there ). I’d probably be more likely to buy a premium product for a day or 2 at DLR.

 

[MisterPenguin]

I'm sure Disney is well aware of the articles online in regards to families going into debt to pay for a Disney vacation.

Those articles have the click-bait title of "GOING INTO DEBT" which would ordinarily mean long term debt and ever increasing debt that will lead eventually to bankruptcy.

But the articles themselves point out that the "debt" is "on their credit card" and the overwhelming number of people who put it on their credit card pay it off the next month or over several months -- according to those same articles.

Except for a few manic outliers, no one is taking out a second mortgage and flirting with bankruptcy to go to WDW.