DisneylandForward

[Nirya]

The more I look at Gene Autry Way, the more I am confused as to why it was built in the first place.

From what I can tell, the main goal was to provide the easiest path from Angel Stadium to the 5 Freeway, and I guess in the future the city wanted it to run all the way to the convention center. But why? Angel Stadium already doesn't lack for routes in and out (the Angels are my team, and I've been to more than enough games to come to this conclusion), and completing the route to the convention center feels like a huge waste of resources from the city.

On top of that, I'm not even sure Gene Autry Way does a good job of getting people on the freeway to begin with. The main way to use it is the carpool lanes, as adding regular traffic on-off would complicate the routes already in place there, especially when there are perfectly-usable options on Katella and State College already.

At this point, Gene Autry Way feels like a proposal that was made by a city council long ago that planners continue to hold onto despite all available evidence pointing to it being a waste of city resources. The city should cut its losses and move on.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The more I look at Gene Autry Way, the more I am confused as to why it was built in the first place.

From what I can tell, the main goal was to provide the easiest path from Angel Stadium to the 5 Freeway, and I guess in the future the city wanted it to run all the way to the convention center. But why? Angel Stadium already doesn't lack for routes in and out (the Angels are my team, and I've been to more than enough games to come to this conclusion), and completing the route to the convention center feels like a huge waste of resources from the city.

On top of that, I'm not even sure Gene Autry Way does a good job of getting people on the freeway to begin with. The main way to use it is the carpool lanes, as adding regular traffic on-off would complicate the routes already in place there, especially when there are perfectly-usable options on Katella and State College already.

At this point, Gene Autry Way feels like a proposal that was made by a city council long ago that planners continue to hold onto despite all available evidence pointing to it being a waste of city resources. The city should cut its losses and move on.

This indeed. Gene Autry Way is a highway to nowhere, drawn by a Haussmann wannabe, serving an imagined audience that has yet to materialize and would be better served by reliable mass transit between the stadium and Resort district instead of committing more area to serving the parking needs of cars moving the less than three miles back and forth.

The new plans to develop the area around the Stadium only make it worse. It’s highway-esque design will be a detriment to the desire to develop a more urban area around the stadium.

 

[lazyboy97o]

We are asking about losing one complex of 86 units. The city would buy out the owner with an offer that requires them to offer relocation services and moving expenses. It happens al the time, and usually without issue.

With the Angel Stadium project bringing thousands of new units, many at an affordable rate, it can be sold s a way to provide better access to those new units.

Gene Autry Way is an important route to the area.

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If it were so easy and important then why has it sat on paper for decades? Other projects don’t have the drama of Disney trading other people’s homes for a sweetheart deal.

 

[truecoat]

It looks like Gene Autry Way isn't the only road the city wants to build. How about one right through the eastern gateway?

 

[TP2000]

One point about the timing, the original Toy Story Land (aka Strawberry Field) is zoned for Agricultural, with a temporary use of parking. It expires in a couple of years. So it matches up with the timing.

The city and Disney might have had a few casual what-if conversations where some horse trading MIGHT happen. the city currently has a 6 to 1 friendly planning commission and city council, as compared to the 4 to 3 unfriendly commission and council when the Eastern Gateway was proposed.

A lot of possibilities, but we won't know the details until later.

And that 1 remaining unfriendly councilman is everyone's favorite Socialist, Dr. Jose Moreno.

"It’s as if somehow we should feel fortunate that Walt Disney chose Anaheim,” -Dr. Jose Moreno, Anaheim City Councilman, speaking to the Wall Street Journal, September 17th, 2018

Here in 2021 he now looks like a complete fool for ever saying that. Much less acting on that opinion by being so openly hostile to Disneyland specifically and the Anaheim Resort District in general. Those evil Capitalists and small business owners.

But he knows. And he has been very, very quiet lately. Because he knows that the collapse of Anaheim's tourism industry built on Disneyland has been a disaster for all of Anaheim's residents. And he knows his previous offensive nature towards Disneyland has aged like Aunt Clara's deviled eggs sitting out in the hot sun all day at a Easter buffet.

My hunch is that Dr. Moreno will have to give weak lip service to his Socialist causes in the next year, but he doesn't have nearly the moral or intellectual authority he had just two years ago. He's a fraud and a failure. Just like history teaches us Socialists always are.

 

[TP2000]

The more I look at Gene Autry Way, the more I am confused as to why it was built in the first place.

From what I can tell, the main goal was to provide the easiest path from Angel Stadium to the 5 Freeway, and I guess in the future the city wanted it to run all the way to the convention center. But why? Angel Stadium already doesn't lack for routes in and out (the Angels are my team, and I've been to more than enough games to come to this conclusion), and completing the route to the convention center feels like a huge waste of resources from the city.

On top of that, I'm not even sure Gene Autry Way does a good job of getting people on the freeway to begin with. The main way to use it is the carpool lanes, as adding regular traffic on-off would complicate the routes already in place there, especially when there are perfectly-usable options on Katella and State College already.

At this point, Gene Autry Way feels like a proposal that was made by a city council long ago that planners continue to hold onto despite all available evidence pointing to it being a waste of city resources. The city should cut its losses and move on.

I agree. And I've been saying the same thing for years now.

I can think of no known event that would require huge amounts of people to travel by car to/from Angel Stadium and the Convention Center. Perhaps there's a future one-off event, maybe an Olympics concept in '28 that would have gymnasts competing at the Convention Center and then receiving their medals outdoors at the Stadium, that would require a mass mobilization of people and vehicles between those two venues within a few hours time?

But that's one specific, theoretical event that may never happen. There's nothing that's happened in the past; not mega-conventions for 100,000 people like D23 or NAMM or Health Expo that requires that type of access between the two venues. Not even the Angels getting into and then winning the World Series in Game 7 at Angel Stadium in '02 required those kind of logistics.

So why does Gene Autry Way need to blast 8 lanes of traffic across the Toy Story Lot? It just makes no sense.

I doubt it even made sense in 1997 when it first got created on a planning document. But even then, it seems to be an idea that pleases no one and serves no purpose.

 

[DanielBB8]

Why didn't Disney propose to convert the Eastern Gateway into mixed use if they delay asking for permits to do it? DisneyForward definitely left it off the marketing materials. That's a pretty good chunk of land that could be a resort with water park or another mini-theme park land.

 

[el_super]

I think the problem is you are ignoring what people like Darkbeer is saying. The announcement doesn't actually state that Disney has plans for developing the western flank, merely that they would like the ability to do with that land as they please. The release of concept art is, as we've mentioned, a shiny toy in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think you're giving enough weight to what Disneyland is asking for here. They know this will be an uphill battle. They know this will be a political fight, and that's why they are trying to get in front of the PR now. Quite frankly, if you are Disneyland, you're not going to get into a political tangle for something you MIGHT think about someday doing.

I don't think that there are any specific plans for putting a Wakanda ride next to DLH, but do I think they are planning mixed development of retail and attractions and ditching the concept of a third park? Absolutely. Do I think they are planning to start developing the land around DLH and PPH? Yep. Do I think that they are prepared to make the case for building attractions so close to the homes along Walnut street, and that's the big PR disaster they are trying to get ahead of here? Yes.

The reason it works is that the general public is looking at this announcement and saying "WHOA LOOK DISNEY WANTS TO EXPAND THE PARKS" instead of actually recognizing what is being proposed. And after the last few decades of pushback, I can absolutely understand why Disney is trying for as much as they are right now; you can't get what you don't ask for.

Years of pushback? The only time the city has really pushed back on Disney was when Disney was asking for concessions. And even then they mostly caved. Certainly if Disney starts asking the city to pay for parking structures or to get hotel construction coupons again, they are going to have a really bad time. But changing the zoning on property they already own? When exactly has the city pushed back on that?

 

[el_super]

Those businesses have now been hurt by Disneyland Resort being closed, likely making them more amenable. They’re also not asking for too much, which is why they’re not looking to change the boundaries of the Disneyland Resort Specific Plan and emphasizing that they are not asking for any monetary commitment from the City.

Yeah, but you can also see the flip side to this: that the businesses are more concerned about their future and may not want to give Disney carte blanche to build more hotels and competing venues without having a future say. We can all see how advantageous this is for Disney, but that means it's painfully obvious they are planning to kick the local businesses while they are down on the ground.

I do agree that it's important Disney doesn't ask for any money from the city. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop though.

 

[el_super]

Those local business owners got a birds eye view of exactly what happens when the main reason people come to Anaheim and a big area employer suddenly ceases doing business. It tends to bring a lot of clarity to those same local business owners, hence why they'd be more understanding now (or at least more willing to play ball) vs. a few years ago.

I still don't really follow this. If I were a local hotel owner, I would want to return to normalcy as soon as possible, and getting into a political fracas with Disney doesn't achieve that. I would also be wise enough to realize that Disney wouldn't withhold future investment in their property, no matter how much they claim they need to get their way, in order to expand. So it's all just empty threats.

Being closed for a year isn't going to make me suddenly blind to the idea that giving Disney more control over the resort plan, could put me out of business in 5 to 10 years. Maybe Disney is hoping they will be too weakened to fight back and will just roll over with whatever changes, but again, they are fighting for their survival here and Disney isn't.

And Disney may be seriously misjudging the weight of anti-corporate feelings getting passed around on the Internet these days. This isn't 1992, when the Internet was easily ignored. If those businesses want to put up a fight, they can get their voices out there and be heard, and push Disney into the same corporate corner as Amazon.

So yeah... I still think this could be a brutal fight and could still go very wrong for Disney. Or maybe I am giving IHOP too much credit?

 

[el_super]

And lastly: The Gene Autry Way expansion is one of the stupidest ways that Anaheim could waste another 60 million dollars.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I still don't really follow this. If I were a local hotel owner, I would want to return to normalcy as soon as possible, and getting into a political fracas with Disney doesn't achieve that. I would also be wise enough to realize that Disney wouldn't withhold future investment in their property, no matter how much they claim they need to get their way, in order to expand. So it's all just empty threats.

It’s a story we see played out over and over again. Despite the obvious people fall for it over and over again. I would not at all be surprised if Disney just wants to go on a hotel building binge but showing new park stuff is that shiny lure of more hotel guests.

 

[DanielBB8]

Hotel owners are not asking for a lot, but Disney makes them seem like any changes are completely ridiculous and a done deal. This is the ultimate abuse of corporate power. Getting reasonable access to guests from the parking structure and having a more pleasing bridge isn't much to ask. But attempts to get Disney to comply means a stalemate and everyone gets hurt including Disney. So they rushed to build a parking garage next to Mickey and Friends. That'll show them!!! Not really. In 2021, we're right back to where we started.

The clock is ticking. Construction costs has increased since the pandemic. Construction material especially lumber has doubled in price in some cases. Good luck with building a hotel cheaply today.

 

[truecoat]

Hotel owners are not asking for a lot, but Disney makes them seem like any changes are completely ridiculous and a done deal. This is the ultimate abuse of corporate power. Getting reasonable access to guests from the parking structure and having a more pleasing bridge isn't much to ask. But attempts to get Disney to comply means a stalemate and everyone gets hurt including Disney. So they rushed to build a parking garage next to Mickey and Friends. That'll show them!!! Not really. In 2021, we're right back to where we started.

The clock is ticking. Construction costs has increased since the pandemic. Construction material especially lumber has doubled in price in some cases. Good luck with building a hotel cheaply today.

I never understood the focus on the design of a bridge running between Capt Kidds and a McDonalds.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I never understood the focus on the design of a bridge running between Capt Kidds and a McDonalds.

And this is why our built environment is such garbage. Things can be functional and beautiful with only a little bit of effort. Disney is supposed to be a leader in design, especially of things that people don’t often think about.

 

[DanielBB8]

I never understood the focus on the design of a bridge running between Capt Kidds and a McDonalds.

Of course you don't.

 

[Ismael Flores]

Simple: ask for too much and you will be told no. The problems with the eastern gateway were being raised by the local business owners and their concerns were enough for Disney to back down and withdraw the plans. By combining it into this program, you can now add in neighbor opposition to those voices.

DisneylandForward is clearly being setup as a multi year effort. It won't be easy and certainly not a slam dunk. Waiting two years for that to get settled to then start building the parking structure is just unnecessary.

not necessarily, cities like large investments especially if no money is coming out of their pockets and especially if the city is hurting now with an upside down budget. You do not go to a city and ask them to make significant changes to zoning and then just offer them an appetizer as a thank you.
No you invite them to the table and offer them a full meal and more.
Just look at how others played that game with all the changes to the Hockey rink and the Angel stadium. That all happened because of all the toppings those corporations agreed on to entice the city to move forward.

 

[el_super]

not necessarily, cities like large investments especially if no money is coming out of their pockets and especially if the city is hurting now with an upside down budget. You do not go to a city and ask them to make significant changes to zoning and then just offer them an appetizer as a thank you.

In what scenario would a city like Anaheim say no to Disney then? Obviously Disney is gearing up for a fight, so who are they fighting with?

 

[truecoat]

And this is why our built environment is such garbage. Things can be functional and beautiful with only a little bit of effort. Disney is supposed to be a leader in design, especially of things that people don’t often think about.

Of course you don't.

But this bridge is fine, right?

 

[lazyboy97o]

But this bridge is fine, right?

View attachment 543696

I’m the guy saying they should offer to buy that road so they can do away with the bridges.