EPCOT Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

[HMF]

Since "Future World" was replaced with World Nature, Celebration, and Discovery, I'm not sure what design/styles would best fit.

But I would not like Epcot to be stuck in the 80s (or the 80s' interpretation of "the future").

If they were consistent, we would have had a major aesthetic re-do in the mid 2000s or 2010s. One of the major problems is they kept the 90s aesthetic for nearly three decades.

 

[HMF]

I was a child when the Irons version was around and didn’t feel left out at all. That ride was my Horizons because I only have faint memories of the actual Horizons.

I was nine when I first rode it. It actually changed my outlook on myself and the world from riding it.

 

[dmc493]

Watching the new aerial video of Epcot got me angry all over again about how they destroyed the beautiful symmetry of Future World

 

[Mickeynerd17]

it would make sense for them to be working on it now if what others have said lately holds true.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

To quote the Law of General Figmentivity: All figment update rumors are to be considered false unless the ride actually shuts down, in which case they will be rendered true.

You are already well aware of that though.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’m not a scholar of interior design by any measure, but I associate the aesthetic of the Space side of Communicore with the Apple Store, a look that’s a quarter century old at this point and feels very stale in addition to being profoundly boring. If I’m wrong about that, I’m happy to become more informed.

Apple has been, without a doubt, a major influence on design. But, while there are certain consistent ideas and elements, the Apple Store has not actually had the same aesthetic since their launch in 2001. One of the many ways Apple has been different from other retailers is that they’ve incrementally updated their stores in a rolling fashion. Most other chains will come up with a prototype store design, stick to it for years and then introduce a radically different new prototype. They’ll update some stores, but it’s also not unusual for chains to have three or more generations of store design out there. These big changes also mean when a store is updated it is very noticeable, especially if a store is skipping a few generations of design. The Disney Store ended up like this in its last 20 years where you still had original “Pink & Green” stores but then also Castle stores, Mickey entrance stores, Imagination Park stores and a few other iterations.

Apple hasn’t really done big major redesigns of their store concept. Instead, their approach has been a more gradual one of modifying a few design elements and features. A new store might open with something different and it will more quickly and consistently be rolled out to other stores. When stores do close for remodeling, because they’ve received even some updates, the changes are often less radical and easy to notice. Again, that’s not to say there isn’t a strong consistency in certain elements and ideas, just that there are changes and Apple’s approach makes them less apparent. Close your eyes and picture an Apple Store. Do you envision large, solid black wall displays filled with merchandise? I’m guessing not, but those were features of the original stores that would now be completely out of place.

The one area where there is definite similarity is in glazing. Apple has long been obsessed with utilizing ever larger pieces of glass and smaller, less visible means of connection. The most famous example is probably the 2011 rebuilding of the entrance to the Fifth Avenue store that dramatically reduced the number of glass panels. The renovation of CommuniCore East also involved replacing glazing in a manner that minimized visible support and enlarged pane size. The concealed frame and butt joints (where the two pieces of glass meet without a metal frame) is an investment in the latest building technology. It demonstrates what is now possible even in an area with higher wind loads. But there’s two ways in which they are not in line with Apple’s aesthetics or even the old ways of Disney themselves. The first is that they didn’t commit to the change. Not every opening was updated. Entrances were updated and most of World Celebrarion side was updated, but a lot of the World Discovery side was not updated. Because entrances were updated the two styles end up sitting right next to each other. The second is that they were designed in isolation. The old framing system aligned the mullions with the stucco control joints above so you had this consistent vertical line. Now the stucco joints and the glazed butt joints don’t align, which is the sort of attention to detail that Apple is still known for and Disney used to be. It also wouldn’t be as bad if the two designs didn’t sit right there next to each other.

The only other area where you get something of a similarity is the ceiling with the white and wood. Even then, Apple tends to go with a more monolithic ceiling design with a single dominate material. I can only guess that people have been trained by other retail spaces in theme parks where “theming” is generally up above to maximize merchandise floor space, so they’re looking up and reading the open space of Creations as the dominate aesthetic of the space. But the design direction of the ceiling is not at all what is playing out on the sales floor.

The openness of the ceiling space is not reflected on the sales floor. There is no clear axis like in Apple Stores. It’s not even a very open plan as there are walls that, while not full height, are taller than a person and divide the space. The adjustable merchandise shelves are a light wood that sticks out because the fixtures themselves are mostly black with some accents of red and yellow. There are then boldly geometric and colorful graphic panel inserts and signage, nothing minimal or subdued about them.

To me that a lot of the criticism of CommuniCore East lacks a consist basis of critique and is wrapped up in feelings regarding other aspects of the park, including the greater CommuniCore area. You said you missed postmodernism and while it’s not Memphis style, taking the colors and shape of a cartoon character and making them a design motif is quite postmodern. Signs and signifiers right out of Learning from Las Vegas. Then there’s the claim of it being too minimalist, which is not quite right because it’s far too varied and cluttered to be minimalist. If anything, I’d argue the larger area and buildings need a touch more minimalism and a clearer vision.

Both the original CommuniCore and Innoventions were conceived of as contemporary space. There’s actually renovated CommuniCore East is also a rather contemporary space while actually having things that aren’t as spartan as a lot of other contemporary spaces. I think the space being average or typical is more pronounced now, not because the design is necessarily more mundane but because of how styles and shifted. The original CommuniCore and Innoventions were a more commercial contemporary. They reflected design trends that were also not as widely adopted. People’s day-to-day still involved seeing a lot of more traditionally inspired design than Modernist influenced. You might sit at a simple cubicle but your boss still had an office with carpet and a big traditional styled desk. Your furniture at home would never be found in an IKEA catalogue. Even places like high end restaurants had a lot more soft goods. The wider culture has finally caught up with things like flatter, more solid surfaces. There’s been a flattening of culture so we see a lot,of the same in a lot of places. And when we move into a new home that’s been given the HGTV treatment we’ll add pops of color and personality, they still tend to be more simplified objects of design versus traditionally ornamented ones. It’s easy to say that they should have designed something more unique but even if the goal was to reinforce Future World, I’m not sure you’d have avoided the problem. Theme parks still need to be able to communicate with their audience so it would have had to be something that reads as forward looking.

I also think the loss of CommuniCore West and all of the exhibit space is a major factor in how people view the space. Food service and retail have certain constraints based on how they need to operate. Those become even more pronounced when you’re dealing with high volume spaces. They’re going to have features that are also more common elsewhere because of the nature of how they have to function. The chi it spaces is where things you didn’t see more frequently elsewhere really existed and because of the spatial organization of the entire CommuniCore area the different spaces all read together and were therefore viewed together. Now nothing but these two uses are there so they read more as other spaces that are just shopping and dining.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

It would be out of place in Future World to have such lavish retail set pieces, but one of the joys of visiting Disneyland Paris is seeing shop interiors that are stunning in their own right, Main Street in particular.

The Storybook Store is made to look like a library with a wrought iron balcony false second floor with, ladders, and stacks of books bring browsed by Disney characters. There's a toy store made to look like a county fair. The barber shop is full of curios and pictures, The Emporium and Harrington's have stained glass ceilings. You feel compelled to look in every one.

The elaborate photography studio was a film quality set in its own right, but has since been replaced with something that looks more like WDW's Main Street (not a good thing). At least the renovated Candy Palace still has most of its detail.

Elsewhere in the park there's a Snow White gift shop that feels like an E-ticket queue and has to be seen to be believed, the two stores in the castle, the former Bazar now buffet in Adventureland and more.

I've talked before about how WDW retail was more experienced focused because of the unique merch on display, but the physical appearance of them is just as important in selling what's on offer and creating a desirable place to be in. The worst case scenario is a blank, empty looking store with nothing of interest to see on the shelf and that's what more and more gift shops in WDW are looking like and why so many think the newer World of Disney, for example, is such a downgrade.

 

[_caleb]

Apple has been, without a doubt, a major influence on design. But, while there are certain consistent ideas and elements, the Apple Store has not actually had the same aesthetic since their launch in 2001. One of the many ways Apple has been different from other retailers is that they’ve incrementally updated their stores in a rolling fashion. Most other chains will come up with a prototype store design, stick to it for years and then introduce a radically different new prototype. They’ll update some stores, but it’s also not unusual for chains to have three or more generations of store design out there. These big changes also mean when a store is updated it is very noticeable, especially if a store is skipping a few generations of design. The Disney Store ended up like this in its last 20 years where you still had original “Pink & Green” stores but then also Castle stores, Mickey entrance stores, Imagination Park stores and a few other iterations.

Apple hasn’t really done big major redesigns of their store concept. Instead, their approach has been a more gradual one of modifying a few design elements and features. A new store might open with something different and it will more quickly and consistently be rolled out to other stores. When stores do close for remodeling, because they’ve received even some updates, the changes are often less radical and easy to notice. Again, that’s not to say there isn’t a strong consistency in certain elements and ideas, just that there are changes and Apple’s approach makes them less apparent. Close your eyes and picture an Apple Store. Do you envision large, solid black wall displays filled with merchandise? I’m guessing not, but those were features of the original stores that would now be completely out of place.

The one area where there is definite similarity is in glazing. Apple has long been obsessed with utilizing ever larger pieces of glass and smaller, less visible means of connection. The most famous example is probably the 2011 rebuilding of the entrance to the Fifth Avenue store that dramatically reduced the number of glass panels. The renovation of CommuniCore East also involved replacing glazing in a manner that minimized visible support and enlarged pane size. The concealed frame and butt joints (where the two pieces of glass meet without a metal frame) is an investment in the latest building technology. It demonstrates what is now possible even in an area with higher wind loads. But there’s two ways in which they are not in line with Apple’s aesthetics or even the old ways of Disney themselves. The first is that they didn’t commit to the change. Not every opening was updated. Entrances were updated and most of World Celebrarion side was updated, but a lot of the World Discovery side was not updated. Because entrances were updated the two styles end up sitting right next to each other. The second is that they were designed in isolation. The old framing system aligned the mullions with the stucco control joints above so you had this consistent vertical line. Now the stucco joints and the glazed butt joints don’t align, which is the sort of attention to detail that Apple is still known for and Disney used to be. It also wouldn’t be as bad if the two designs didn’t sit right there next to each other.

The only other area where you get something of a similarity is the ceiling with the white and wood. Even then, Apple tends to go with a more monolithic ceiling design with a single dominate material. I can only guess that people have been trained by other retail spaces in theme parks where “theming” is generally up above to maximize merchandise floor space, so they’re looking up and reading the open space of Creations as the dominate aesthetic of the space. But the design direction of the ceiling is not at all what is playing out on the sales floor.

The openness of the ceiling space is not reflected on the sales floor. There is no clear axis like in Apple Stores. It’s not even a very open plan as there are walls that, while not full height, are taller than a person and divide the space. The adjustable merchandise shelves are a light wood that sticks out because the fixtures themselves are mostly black with some accents of red and yellow. There are then boldly geometric and colorful graphic panel inserts and signage, nothing minimal or subdued about them.

To me that a lot of the criticism of CommuniCore East lacks a consist basis of critique and is wrapped up in feelings regarding other aspects of the park, including the greater CommuniCore area. You said you missed postmodernism and while it’s not Memphis style, taking the colors and shape of a cartoon character and making them a design motif is quite postmodern. Signs and signifiers right out of Learning from Las Vegas. Then there’s the claim of it being too minimalist, which is not quite right because it’s far too varied and cluttered to be minimalist. If anything, I’d argue the larger area and buildings need a touch more minimalism and a clearer vision.

Both the original CommuniCore and Innoventions were conceived of as contemporary space. There’s actually renovated CommuniCore East is also a rather contemporary space while actually having things that aren’t as spartan as a lot of other contemporary spaces. I think the space being average or typical is more pronounced now, not because the design is necessarily more mundane but because of how styles and shifted. The original CommuniCore and Innoventions were a more commercial contemporary. They reflected design trends that were also not as widely adopted. People’s day-to-day still involved seeing a lot of more traditionally inspired design than Modernist influenced. You might sit at a simple cubicle but your boss still had an office with carpet and a big traditional styled desk. Your furniture at home would never be found in an IKEA catalogue. Even places like high end restaurants had a lot more soft goods. The wider culture has finally caught up with things like flatter, more solid surfaces. There’s been a flattening of culture so we see a lot,of the same in a lot of places. And when we move into a new home that’s been given the HGTV treatment we’ll add pops of color and personality, they still tend to be more simplified objects of design versus traditionally ornamented ones. It’s easy to say that they should have designed something more unique but even if the goal was to reinforce Future World, I’m not sure you’d have avoided the problem. Theme parks still need to be able to communicate with their audience so it would have had to be something that reads as forward looking.

I also think the loss of CommuniCore West and all of the exhibit space is a major factor in how people view the space. Food service and retail have certain constraints based on how they need to operate. Those become even more pronounced when you’re dealing with high volume spaces. They’re going to have features that are also more common elsewhere because of the nature of how they have to function. The chi it spaces is where things you didn’t see more frequently elsewhere really existed and because of the spatial organization of the entire CommuniCore area the different spaces all read together and were therefore viewed together. Now nothing but these two uses are there so they read more as other spaces that are just shopping and dining.

I don’t understand the interpretation of contemporary design as “futuristic” in perpetuity.

My best guess is that Disney learned that “the future” is a difficult theme to design and even more difficult to maintain?

 

[rreading]

Watching the new aerial video of Epcot got me angry all over again about how they destroyed the beautiful symmetry of Future World

Apart from the conceptual aesthetic of symmetry, I don’t miss the semicircles of doom that surrounded you exiting Spaceship Earth.

Eventually on the east side we navigated our way to find Sum of all thrills hidden in the darkness and we enjoyed that. But otherwise, it was always an area of the park to go past

What did I miss in there that was great?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

What did I miss in there that was great?

At times Innoventions was very fun. Home of the future, the “Velcro” game show, ride a Segway…. There were both hits and misses and towards the end it got to be a bit sad. But that’s typical of Disney neglecting attractions they are done with.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don’t understand the interpretation of contemporary design as “futuristic” in perpetuity.

My best guess is that Disney learned that “the future” is a difficult theme to design and even more difficult to maintain?

It’s not a Disney thing. The future is unknown so depictions of it have long been fairly contemporary because that’s generally the newest.

 

[_caleb]

It’s not a Disney thing. The future is unknown so depictions of it have long been fairly contemporary because that’s generally the newest.

I understand it’s not unique to Disney. But didn’t Disney used to at least try to predict (and shape) “the future” (original Tomorrowland, Future World)?

Disney fighting Laver’s Law with “refurbished Hampton Inn lobby” isn’t going to result in places I actually want to spend time in.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Disney fighting Laver’s Law with “refurbished Hampton Inn lobby” isn’t going to result in places I actually want to spend time in.

That’s the trick…. It needs to feel “uniquely Disney” but it also can’t feel “old and dated” - it’s a tricky line to walk.

Future world Epcot and Disney Springs are pretty bad examples in my opinion.

 

[HMF]

The only positive for me out of the whole mess.

I would give kudos to the entrance too. Though to be fair that wasn't that hard considering all it required was to remove the graveyard and just changing it back to the way it was to begin with.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Apart from the conceptual aesthetic of symmetry, I don’t miss the semicircles of doom that surrounded you exiting Spaceship Earth.

Eventually on the east side we navigated our way to find Sum of all thrills hidden in the darkness and we enjoyed that. But otherwise, it was always an area of the park to go past

What did I miss in there that was great?

They weren’t designed to be dark, closed off spaces with little to do inside. They were designed as more open exhibition pavilions. Their real critical function was in providing spatial organization for Future World.

 

[HMF]

At times Innoventions was very fun. Home of the future, the “Velcro” game show, ride a Segway…. There were both hits and misses and towards the end it got to be a bit sad. But that’s typical of Disney neglecting attractions they are done with.

It was actually quite great during the Millenium Celebration. Of course, back then the prospect of new technologies was actually exciting rather than either taken for granted or treated as something to be afraid of like it is today, which is why I think they gave up on keeping an attraction along the lines of Communicore/Innoventions and why they felt no guilt getting rid of the West buildings for no good reason.

 

[HMF]

I understand it’s not unique to Disney. But didn’t Disney used to at least try to predict (and shape) “the future” (original Tomorrowland, Future World)?

As with nearly every other institution Disney has essentially given up on the idea of an optimistic future as has most of society, sadly. So, they feel they might as well just throw in some Marvel coaster and other IP around since the future is going to suck anyway assuming it even comes. That really is ultimately the governing logic of the EPCOT re-do.

 

[rreading]

They weren’t designed to be dark, closed off spaces with little to do inside. They were designed as more open exhibition pavilions. Their real critical function was in providing spatial organization for Future World.

Would have been nice to see them that way!

 

[lazyboy97o]

I understand it’s not unique to Disney. But didn’t Disney used to at least try to predict (and shape) “the future” (original Tomorrowland, Future World)?

Disney fighting Laver’s Law with “refurbished Hampton Inn lobby” isn’t going to result in places I actually want to spend time in.

Not with their specific architecture. That came more from the content of the various attractions and exhibits. The architecture of Tomorrowland 67 and Tomorrowland 71 were both very Jet Age Modern. Future World took on aspects of the monumentality of Brutalism and the upcoming rise of postmodernism by making the pavilions into large symbols of their subjects. Those large pavilions of Future World also represent a shift in spatial organization for a Disney park, going from the space making objects of Magic Kingdom lands (where buildings define corridors and plazas) to the objects in space of the pavilions. This coincides with the clear dominance of suburbs and exurbs in American life. Tomorrowland was also impacted by this shift in the mid-70s with the addition of Space Mountain.

Laver’s Law is a good explanation for why Tomorrowland and Future World were more contemporary than avant-garde. Something too out there would risk not connecting with audiences (there’s also a good chance they’d leak like crazy). Themed entertainment is storytelling with built space so there is always some element of the space needing to be able to properly communicate its story. You don't want something reading as wacky or ridiculous when it is supposed to be futuristic. This also plays into Hench's view that Disney experiences weren't escapism but reassurance. A space that's too out there on the Laver timeline isn't going to be reassuring.

Hench's ideas behind the architecture of reassurance also help provide further explanation for why Tomorrowland, Future World and now the Epcot Neighborhoods have lots their emotional spark. A key component to Disney parks is the clarity and unity of design. The components of a land don't compete with each other like they would in their real life counterparts, but instead all work together to create visual and spatial harmony. They're calming spaces, not chaotic spaces. Tomorrowland ratcheted this up by giving the lands a near singular aesthetic. The buildings flanking the main corridor are near mirrors of each other. One knows what is happening inside largely from signage, which was originally itself uniform in design. Future World broke away from this with more distinctive pavilions but this is part of where the CommuniCore played such a vital role. As the organizing center of land it was neutral space, not a cacophony of competing aesthetics derived from the various pavilions.

The Tomorrowlands of today and the new evolved CommuniCore are all lacking for a clear expression of a single idea. They have become exactly the sort of chaotic spaces competing for attention that Hench identified as the antithesis of the architecture of reassurance. In the cases of the Tomorrowlands it is mostly the result of various half-hearted updates and attractions just trying to stand out more instead of stepping back to let the land's design take precedent. In Evolving Epcot it was a deliberate design choice that came out of incomplete ideas with none carrying a strong force of conviction. The project's larger mission statement was a contradiction. The new CommuniCore isn't the neutral center of a larger space but a collection of various spaces that speak to some larger idea. The plaza has these distinct quadrants but it makes no sense for it to be so broken up. The backside of World Nature now intrudes. The new stage and plaza don't spatially connect with the central plaza. CommuniCore Hall also turns away from the plaza. Creations has a Mickey Mouse motif because Disney, not some connection to the story of World Celebration. The lands and neighborhoods are just all over the place instead of really focusing on communicating one clear idea. We, as the audience, end up reading that uncertainty and no amount of positivity written into a backstory will fix that.

 

[TheCoasterNerd]

I miss Innoventions (Mainly the kuka ride tbf) but I do love new Epcot. The old hub, aside from FoN and Inno, just wasn't anything special. IMO, install a themed flat ride and a changing walkthrough IE Disney on Broadway in Communicore, change female body planter into a fountain, and it's possibly the most GOATed hub in any theme park on earth.

 

[Figments Friend]

FWIW, I’m starting to hear mumblings from people I trust that there is once again “a desire” from people higher up to improve EPCOT. I don’t think that means we’ll be getting our wish lists of projects, nor do I think it is related to the upcoming management shakeup, but it is something to note.

I firmly will not believe any new Figment rumors because I have been burned too many times, but it would make sense for them to be working on it now if what others have said lately holds true.

I think the desire is to improve what is now understood to be ‘dead space’ in the central hub / gardens area of the Park.
A slight shift in perception can be a good thing.



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