Marvel's Fantastic Four

[CoastalElite64]

Cross posting my comment from the box office thread-

The reality of F4 is, when I got back and spoke with a couple of friends who would go see it, my statement to them was... "Eh, it's good, but not great, wait to watch it on D+"

It wasn't a "OH YEAH, you GOTTA see it asap!"

You told that to your friends? The chase scene alone is one of the best moments in comic book movies. That experience wont be even close on a home tv.

 

[BrianLo]

The post-credits sequence shows he’s a four year old whose favorite book is Origin of the Species. Normally that would be a joke that the toddler is a genius, but Franklin usually isn’t.

As someone who doesn’t know Frank was a thing, my first read on that scene was oh he’s a genius followed by Sue grabbing another clearly toddler book (she was reading the hungry caterpillar), to oh the robot was just being a silly robot and Sue was joking with it.

I have no idea how it was supposed to play!

I very much think the F4 are the gateway to causing the mutants. Are they technically also mutants?

 

[BrianLo]

I thought it was really good, myself! Super fun, really stylized.

Could have done with 10% more smiling from this movie and 10% less goofy with Superman, but both were otherwise great superhero genre films.

Had we had this a few years ago, with Thunderbolts and with a few less D+ series, the MCU would be perfectly peak still heading into the next avengers. Unfortunately elements of phase 4/5 feel unpaid off.

 

[JackCH]

As someone who doesn’t know Frank was a thing, my first read on that scene was oh he’s a genius followed by Sue grabbing another clearly toddler book (she was reading the hungry caterpillar), to oh the robot was just being a silly robot and Sue was joking with it.

I have no idea how it was supposed to play!

I very much think the F4 are the gateway to causing the mutants. Are they technically also mutants?

Mutants are those born with their powers (through the mutant X gene). The FF acquired their powers through cosmic rays, so they are not mutants. In the comics, Franklin is a mutant. I'm not sure how they will unpack it in the films.

As far as him reading Darwin, my theory is that they won't even have Valeria (their daughter, who is a genius) and just collapse those two into one character for simplicity sake. So Franklin will have his powers and be a genius.

 

[JackCH]

It really needed 30 more minutes, more of a subplot for Ben, an opening fight scene, and a little more wackiness. It felt strangely somber.

I know they had to do Galactus, but I'd have rather watched them battling Mole Man and the forces of Subterranea.

I know stuff has been being thrown together for a bit, but I really think this would have been better as two movies. One that introduces the FF, their world, the family themes, etc, and another where they face Galactus and things start building toward Doomsday/Secret Wars. Everything just feels so rushed now.

My thoughts (some spoilers below!)


As far as the movie, I really enjoyed it. FF and Spider-Man were my favorite growing up and it is nice to get a quality movie for the first family. My biggest critiques are 1) too rushed- needed an extra 15-20 minutes, 2) more Ben Grimm plot, and 3) the climax being underwhelming. The space scenes are some of the most well-done in all of Marvel, but then act 3 felt lacking. It would have been better if Galactus also started devouring the planet while searching for Franklin. But him just... walking... was not very interesting and was a bit of a letdown after the incredible second act. I would have also liked them to explore a little more the core theme of Galactus stories: what is the value of humanity in the grand scheme of the universe?

 

[BrianLo]

Mutants are those born with their powers (through the mutant X gene). The FF acquired their powers through cosmic rays, so they are not mutants. In the comics, Franklin is a mutant. I'm not sure how they will unpack it in the films.

As far as him reading Darwin, my theory is that they won't even have Valeria (their daughter, who is a genius) and just collapse those two into one character for simplicity sake. So Franklin will have his powers and be a genius.

Ok I think I can accept that. Franklin implies heritability, at the very least epigentically. So unless they still radiate cosmic radiation (a quick google says no), Franklin would have to be a mutant. Or indirectly irradiated I guess on their voyage to see galactus, though that’s never implied.

Maybe why reed struggles to identify any issues, since it’s entirely a different power source.

 

[JackCH]

Ok I think I can accept that. Franklin implies heritability, at the very least epigentically. So unless they still radiate cosmic radiation (a quick google says no), Franklin would have to be a mutant. Or indirectly irradiated I guess on their voyage to see galactus, though that’s never implied.

Maybe why reed struggles to identify any issues, since it’s entirely a different power source.

That's perfectly possible. I just don't know if that is the direction they will take it or not.

Possible spoilers for Doomsday/Secret Wars:

We know the old guard of X-Men will have some role in those movies (Hugh Jackman/Patrick Stewart, etc). That will most likely be multiverse explanation. But then afterward, there will be a new, original X-Men movie with a whole new cast, etc. How we get from point A to point B is anyone's guess. Franklin will obviously have a huge role to play, as he does in the comics, but obviously mutants were already a thing there so I have no idea how they will do it in the movies.

 

[Disney Irish]

I know stuff has been being thrown together for a bit, but I really think this would have been better as two movies. One that introduces the FF, their world, the family themes, etc, and another where they face Galactus and things start building toward Doomsday/Secret Wars. Everything just feels so rushed now.

My thoughts (some spoilers below!)


As far as the movie, I really enjoyed it. FF and Spider-Man were my favorite growing up and it is nice to get a quality movie for the first family. My biggest critiques are 1) too rushed- needed an extra 15-20 minutes, 2) more Ben Grimm plot, and 3) the climax being underwhelming. The space scenes are some of the most well-done in all of Marvel, but then act 3 felt lacking. It would have been better if Galactus also started devouring the planet while searching for Franklin. But him just... walking... was not very interesting and was a bit of a letdown after the incredible second act. I would have also liked them to explore a little more the core theme of Galactus stories: what is the value of humanity in the grand scheme of the universe?

The idea of skipping the origin story here is the same as Spider-Man’s, it’s been done already, we know the basic story already. It’s why they did a quick exposition dump at the beginning for those that don’t know, and just gloss over it for those that do so you aren’t bored. I think it was handled pretty well here for characters that already had intros in two other attempts.

 

[Casper Gutman]

As someone who doesn’t know Frank was a thing, my first read on that scene was oh he’s a genius followed by Sue grabbing another clearly toddler book (she was reading the hungry caterpillar), to oh the robot was just being a silly robot and Sue was joking with it.

I have no idea how it was supposed to play!

I very much think the F4 are the gateway to causing the mutants. Are they technically also mutants?

Vague possible spoilers:

Well, in the comics Franklin can create universes and the names of the upcoming Avengers films indicate that in the MCU the universe - every universe in the multiverse, as a matter of fact, is going to go through a… difficult period.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Mutants are those born with their powers (through the mutant X gene). The FF acquired their powers through cosmic rays, so they are not mutants. In the comics, Franklin is a mutant. I'm not sure how they will unpack it in the films.

As far as him reading Darwin, my theory is that they won't even have Valeria (their daughter, who is a genius) and just collapse those two into one character for simplicity sake. So Franklin will have his powers and be a genius.

I don’t think comic book Franklin is a mutant anymore - that was retconned out. He was just making people think he was a mutant. This is similar to what the film gestured to - Reed couldn’t find anomalies in Franklin because he was powerful enough to hide them, albeit unconsciously.

I believe the only mutant we’ve seen in the MCU outside of the Fox holdovers is Ms Marvel, and that was an afterthought.

The problem is that if you give Franklin Valeria’s supergenius he becomes not only nearly omnipotent but also nearly omniscient, and it’s very hard to write a character like that or make him sympathetic. You basically need to find a way to get him out of the story. Now, a normal kid with god-like powers - there are story opportunities there.

 

[JackCH]

The idea of skipping the origin story here is the same as Spider-Man’s, it’s been done already, we know the basic story already. It’s why they did a quick exposition dump at the beginning for those that don’t know, and just gloss over it for those that do so you aren’t bored. I think it was handled pretty well here for characters that already had intros in two other attempts.

I didn’t necessarily mean an origin, just a smaller film that focused on getting to know the characters and introduce themes with more time to breathe.

 

[JackCH]

L

I don’t think comic book Franklin is a mutant anymore - that was retconned out. He was just making people think he was a mutant. This is similar to what the film gestured to - Reed couldn’t find anomalies in Franklin because he was powerful enough to hide them, albeit unconsciously.

I believe the only mutant we’ve seen in the MCU outside of the Fox holdovers is Ms Marvel, and that was an afterthought.

The problem is that if you give Franklin Valeria’s supergenius he becomes not only nearly omnipotent but also nearly omniscient, and it’s very hard to write a character like that or make him sympathetic. You basically need to find a way to get him out of the story. Now, a normal kid with god-like powers - there are story opportunities there.

i need to go back and read some stuff cause I don’t remember that. Though often those kind of retconned get re-retconned later lol.

But I totally agree. I hope they don’t do that with Franklin it just seemed like it might be the direction they take. One of the reasons I like Franklin is he often is a stand-in for a child with a super active imagination, and I hope they stick with that.

 

[LSLS]

The idea of skipping the origin story here is the same as Spider-Man’s, it’s been done already, we know the basic story already. It’s why they did a quick exposition dump at the beginning for those that don’t know, and just gloss over it for those that do so you aren’t bored. I think it was handled pretty well here for characters that already had intros in two other attempts.

I'm perfectly fine skipping the origin if it is explained a bit in the beginning like you are hinting at here (again, I really do plan on seeing this). But, I will say, as a casual, I do not really know the backstory. I never watched the earlier film versions as F4 never meant much to me and that was a party time in my life (and judging by their box office and reviews, I don't think I'm alone), and I just don't know their lore aside from kind of what they are (super smart/stretchy, invisible, fire, and rock). But again, I don't think it needs a full origin story as long as it walks you through it a bit (or at least explains why there are people with powers in this universe).

 

[Disney Irish]

I'm perfectly fine skipping the origin if it is explained a bit in the beginning like you are hinting at here (again, I really do plan on seeing this). But, I will say, as a casual, I do not really know the backstory. I never watched the earlier film versions as F4 never meant much to me and that was a party time in my life (and judging by their box office and reviews, I don't think I'm alone), and I just don't know their lore aside from kind of what they are (super smart/stretchy, invisible, fire, and rock). But again, I don't think it needs a full origin story as long as it walks you through it a bit (or at least explains why there are people with powers in this universe).

Well, you’ll be good with this movie then. As I feel it has enough exposition dump for normies that don’t know the characters origins and not too much for those that do that they’d be bored.

 

[Disney Irish]

I didn’t necessarily mean an origin, just a smaller film that focused on getting to know the characters and introduce themes with more time to breathe.

Except that is essentially what a first movie introduction story would be, an origin story. And after 3 previous movies it doesn’t make sense to do it again, as you’re not really covering too much new ground there, you’re just telling the same story for a 3rd time, which is boring. Again the same reason why they skipped it with Spider-Man when they introduced him into the MCU. They give enough exposition for those that don’t know the story to not be lost, and not too much so those that do aren’t bored. It’s the Goldilocks approach to storytelling, and I think they handled both sets of characters debut in the MCU just right.

So I’m not sure what more you think they could have done without basically doing the origin story over again.

 

[LSLS]

Well, you’ll be good with this movie then. As I feel it has enough exposition dump for normies that don’t know the characters origins and not too much for those that do that they’d be bored.

Good to hear. Definitely excited for this one.

 

[JackCH]

Except that is essentially what a first movie introduction story would be, an origin story. And after 3 previous movies it doesn’t make sense to do it again, as you’re not really covering too much new ground there, you’re just telling the same story for a 3rd time, which is boring. Again the same reason why they skipped it with Spider-Man when they introduced him into the MCU. They give enough exposition for those that don’t know the story to not be lost, and not too much so those that do aren’t bored. It’s the Goldilocks approach to storytelling, and I think they handled both sets of characters debut in the MCU just right.

So I’m not sure what more you think they could have done without basically doing the origin story over again.

Except that’s not what I’m saying. A Spider-Man: Homecoming type film is what I’m talking about. Have them fight the Wizard or Mole Man or some smaller villain that the audience doesn’t know and build this world, these characters, their dynamics, etc, more before you go to this world ending threat of Galactus. That gives more space to flesh out both the Four, and Galactus. I took family to the film who had the main two complaints of 1) not enough time with the 4 to get to know them, and 2) not nearly enough time or build up with Galactus. This movie felt a bit like two movies pushed together. And it wasn’t bad, I really enjoyed it, but it could have been strengthened with more space. Especially now going into Doomsday with basically no buildup at all with Doom. It is all very rushed. Especially if Reed and Doom are going to be as essential to the next couple films as they should be.

I also think that the previous movies all did pretty terrible with these characters so the audience does in fact need to learn more about who they are in a better way. And again, I’m not talking about from a lore/how they got their powers perspective. I mean from a caring about the characters perspective.

 

[JackCH]

I'm perfectly fine skipping the origin if it is explained a bit in the beginning like you are hinting at here (again, I really do plan on seeing this). But, I will say, as a casual, I do not really know the backstory. I never watched the earlier film versions as F4 never meant much to me and that was a party time in my life (and judging by their box office and reviews, I don't think I'm alone), and I just don't know their lore aside from kind of what they are (super smart/stretchy, invisible, fire, and rock). But again, I don't think it needs a full origin story as long as it walks you through it a bit (or at least explains why there are people with powers in this universe).

Oh you’ll be fine as far as being able to follow along. This movie is great when it comes to all that. My point is not about understanding them as far as their powers, etc. but giving more space for the audience to know the characters personalities and themes before going straight into an Avengers finale pair of films.

This film is great and I think you’ll really enjoy it.

 

[JackCH]

Random aside. It would have been great to have a third Doctor Strange movie based on the Triumph and Torment storyline with Doom.

 

[Disney Irish]

Except that’s not what I’m saying. A Spider-Man: Homecoming type film is what I’m talking about. Have them fight the Wizard or Mole Man or some smaller villain that the audience doesn’t know and build this world, these characters, their dynamics, etc, more before you go to this world ending threat of Galactus. That gives more space to flesh out both the Four, and Galactus. I took family to the film who had the main two complaints of 1) not enough time with the 4 to get to know them, and 2) not nearly enough time or build up with Galactus. This movie felt a bit like two movies pushed together. And it wasn’t bad, I really enjoyed it, but it could have been strengthened with more space. Especially now going into Doomsday with basically no buildup at all with Doom. It is all very rushed. Especially if Reed and Doom are going to be as essential to the next couple films as they should be.

I also think that the previous movies all did pretty terrible with these characters so the audience does in fact need to learn more about who they are in a better way. Comparing that to Spider-Man’s place in the cultural zeitgeist is apples and oranges. And again, I’m not talking about from a lore/how they got their powers perspective. I mean from a caring about the characters perspective.

I don't know that still sounds like an overall origin story to me. Them fighting street level villain characters in a "getting to know you" type of movie is essentially part of an origin story where they learn their powers. As once they learn their powers they can easily defeat pretty much every street level villain. Which is exactly what they show in the exposition dump part of this movie.

In addition F4 have never really been a street level character story in my opinion like Spider-Man, Daredevil, Punisher, or similar characters. They are part of Cosmic Marvel, and so their story is much larger and can't be just isolated to fighting lower level villains in a movie without it being too boring. Especially when they want to quickly lead into Doom and the more Cosmic Marvel in a Multiverse Saga ending climax that'll lead into the Mutant Saga. So there just isn't enough time to tell the type of story you want.