HOW WILL UNIVERSAL'S EPIC UNIVERSE AFFECT WALT DISNEY WORLD?

[Tom Morrow]

Honestly while i don't have a great interest in EPIC, statements like this just look silly.

"It objectively is not"???? Really. There is some objective quantifiable standard as to theme parks that exists someplace? Who publishes it? What are the standard and critera that are rated and compared to make objective determinations on what is "better" and what isn't? Speaking of that, what is the definition of better that is objectively set in the realm of theme parks? And really you being special and have fully sampled everything that EPIC has to offer, a park that isn't formally open yet have someone enough date to compare the two parks and this mystery objective standard and come to this conclusion?

I believe that we, as a community of theme park enthusiasts/nerds, have a fairly collective agreement on what a new world class theme park in 2025 would have to be to raise the bar and set a new standard for the theme park industry. I believe the majority would say, given the current state of the industry, that a theme park where the entire thing is on the immersive and detailed level of Diagon Alley and Galaxy's Edge would raise the bar for the industry. Epic, though touted as that, is not. Only SNW and Potter achieve that level of immersion. Celestial Park is very pretty, but not immersive. Berk and Dark Universe feel more like Islands of Adventure's level of immersion.

Then, factor in the attraction lineup. Islands of Adventure opened with a stellar attraction lineup, but some of the attraction choices for Epic are questionable and will not be absolute crowd pleasers (for instance, we already know that Mario Kart receives mixed reviews).

When factoring in everything, though individual people might prefer Epic to the other parks, yes, I do believe that Epic is objectively not really better than the existing Orlando major theme parks. Is being as good as the parks we already love really even a bad thing?

Also, no, I am not special. I would guess that thousands of people have previewed Epic at this point.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I believe the majority would say, given the current state of the industry, that a theme park where the entire thing is on the immersive and detailed level of Diagon Alley and Galaxy's Edge would raise the bar for the industry.

Galaxies Edge as an immersive land is pretty lacking - nowhere near Diagon Alley in my book.

Avatar is better.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Galaxies Edge as an immersive land is pretty lacking - nowhere near Diagon Alley in my book.

Avatar is better.

There's less little details to look at in Galaxy's Edge than Diagon, but it does successfully immerse you, 360 degrees, from the rest of the park and the outside world*

*minus some slivers of views where you can see into Toy Story Land. But yeah maybe Pandora is a better example.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Have you visited WDW lately?

I have trained myself to keep my expectations as low as possible when visiting WDW. Anything good that happens is a win for me.

Dear god, you still visit WDW?

 

[Lil Copter Cap]

I think a better question to ask is how will Epic Universe impact other Universal theme parks in Orlando. Universal is hoping for longer stays/bigger draw, but even Disney didn't anticipate the dramatic dip in attendance of their other parks when Animal Kingdom opened.

Regardless, theme park enthusiasts are tuned into this far more than your average family in the midwest. I don't think any of us really know what's going to happen. But I'm excited to see how everything plays out over the coming months.

@Tom Morrow - I appreciate your thoughts tremendously and agree with your sentiments. Thank you for sharing!

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

There's less little details to look at in Galaxy's Edge than Diagon, but it does successfully immerse you, 360 degrees, from the rest of the park and the outside world*

then DAK is the best park in Florida then? Cause all of the lands accomplish this.

 

[Tom Morrow]

then DAK is the best park in Florida then? Cause all of the lands accomplish this.

This is actually what I think lol. DAK, while maybe not the best overall park, remains the most immersive theme park of the Orlando parks.

 

[Stripes]

then DAK is the best park in existence then? Cause all of the lands accomplish this.

DAK is my favorite park in Orlando! It's gorgeous and incredibly immersive. With the replacement of Dinoland with Tropical Americas it will be almost perfect. All it will need is a little more to do, maybe a nighttime show and a couple more attractions.

 

[Poseidon Quest]

We saw what adding SNW did for USH. USH is seeing significant declines in attendance according to Comcast. Of course, SNW Orlando will be better than what USH has, but I don't think SNW is some big game changer. The rides have received a relatively disappointing reception with the land itself getting most of the praise, as it should. I think Universal should be concerned about significant cannibalization of their existing parks, particularly USF. As it exists today, I see very little reason to visit USF.

I should note that the show producer for all SNW lands and the show producer for Potter Paris are working at WDI in Florida now. These folks are leading the creative development on the expansions to DAK and DHS. Both of them are former WDI that left for UC and have now returned to WDI.

I wouldn't say everything Disney produces feels "corporate" but a lot of it has in the past several years. However, I do think you're going to see a remarkable shift in quality with the projects that were announced at D23. Bruce Vaughn truly understands the parks and what guests expect from Disney.

Certainly there is some top-tier theming at Epic, but I have to tell you: Celestial Park feels extremely "corporate" to me.
Atlantic looks like a Cheesecake Factory and Helios doesn't have the artistry that an in-park hotel demands. To me, Helios stands as a massive monument to CMCSA shareholders. According to some, Molly Murphy (the President of Universal Creative for the past year and a half) has initiated the Gensler-ification of UC. Murphy worked at Gensler for over 17 years.

I think that SNW is a game-changer on the east coast with a more fleshed out land, more attractions and an entirely new park behind it. SNW in Hollywood was a curiosity for a park that still needs a lot of work and with DLR not too far away as the indisputably better alternative. SNW on the east coast will probably bring in tourists in a way that Hollywood could not with such a local-heavy park population.

I agree that Celestial feels a bit generic, but the cosmic world's fair theme ties all the other lands together, so I see the intent behind it. Once the foliage grows in, I can see the perception around the hub changing quite a lot. I found there was a lot of interesting detail in Pizza Moon and whatever the Christmas store was called. I also agree the hotel is generic too, but Universal has never attempted Eisner-era resort theming, so I can't fault them for something that they never intended to do.

I think you misunderstood his point.

It'll almost certainly raise the bar for Universal in terms of drawing guests (although I'm not so sure that Super Nintendo World is actually a major long-term draw; the weak attraction lineup is a problem), but that's not what he was saying.

He was saying it doesn't raise the bar for theme parks overall; it's not setting a new standard as something better than any park before (and people were absolutely pushing it as that). That doesn't seem like an outlier take.

For me personally, the park has a really weak ride lineup -- there are only two that look like theme park headliners in Monsters and HP; everything else looks bland except maybe Mine Cart Madness -- and doesn't seem to offer enough outside of the rides. What I've seen/read is disappointing, and I was hoping it would be fantastic both as something to visit on its own and as something to push Disney to do better.

I disagree that it doesn't set a new standard. In the way that Spider-Man changed the industry (for better or worse) by proving that you can incorporate fast-paced action into rides through screens, Monsters does the same but mostly with physical effects. I think that Wing Gliders redefines what you can do with lower intensity family coasters, and the scale of Paris has never been done in a park before. The lands are full of detail and kineticism that are not seen elsewhere. There were a lot of attractions and elements of the lands that "wowed" me when it's been a long time since I've felt that way in a theme park.

Which is it? What bar is being raised?

My statements are not contradictory. Certain attractions or lands can be industry-changing without the whole park needing to be. Epic has a decent handful of supplementary attractions when Islands had stronger, lengthier rides on opening and Epic lacks the complete immersion factor of Disney Sea, but they're still strong in their own way. In some areas, Epic does rely on tried and true design, but that doesn't take away from other innovations.

 

[Stripes]

I think that SNW is a game-changer on the east coast with a more fleshed out land, more attractions and an entirely new park behind it. SNW in Hollywood was a curiosity for a park that still needs a lot of work and with DLR not too far away as the indisputably better alternative. SNW on the east coast will probably bring in tourists in a way that Hollywood could not with such a local-heavy park population.

The Nintendo fanatics I work with flew in to visit USH and considered it a one-and-done. Having seen the land at USH they don't have any plans to visit Epic. I do wonder if Universal made a mistake by opening the weaker of the two offerings two years in advance of the superior version.

And again, I have to wonder whether Universal has made a miscalculation when it comes to the lack of investment in USF. USF is the ugliest park in Orlando and the last 3 additions are DREAMWORKS land (crap), Supercharged (crap), and Fallon (meh).

I also agree the hotel is generic too, but Universal has never attempted Eisner-era resort theming, so I can't fault them for something that they never intended to do.

???

“Anchoring this incredible world is the amazing Universal Helios Grand Hotel, 500 rooms, integrated into the park like no other theme park in the world.” -Mark Woodbury

Heck, I would say Universal Beijing has a hotel with more character and better theming.

I disagree that it doesn't set a new standard. In the way that Spider-Man changed the industry (for better or worse) by proving that you can incorporate fast-paced action into rides through screens, Monsters does the same but mostly with physical effects.

I haven’t experienced the attraction myself, so I can’t speak from personal experience. However, I’ve read critiques stating that the fast-paced action results in poor pacing, overwhelming riders with too many elements competing for attention.

My statements are not contradictory. Certain attractions or lands can be industry-changing without the whole park needing to be. Epic has a decent handful of supplementary attractions when Islands had stronger, lengthier rides on opening and Epic lacks the complete immersion factor of Disney Sea, but they're still strong in their own way. In some areas, Epic does rely on tried and true design, but that doesn't take away from other innovations.

This is short-term thinking. A whole park on the same level as Disneyland Paris or Tokyo Disneysea would have been a permanent game changer in Orlando. But if only a couple of lands and attractions are at that level, it’s not going to meaningfully change the competitive landscape in Orlando long-term, especially given the recent changes at WDI and UC (the effects of which haven’t been felt yet).

 

[DarkMetroid567]

then DAK is the best park in Florida then? Cause all of the lands accomplish this.

Yeah this is my take too. Once Tropical Americas is done there will probably be zero doubt in my mind. Give DAK a few more solid D-tickets and a popular nighttime show (sorry Rivers of Light…) and I think it’s an undeniable #1

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I think EPCOT was the best theme park ever made, but that version of EPCOT no longer exists.

For all the talk about raising the bar for theme parks, it's sad to think that The Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center in their primes were better parks than all the other ones Disney and Universal have built since in Orlando.

That's not to say nothing about those newer ones are good, but they have been brought down by a lack of capacity and/or cut corners elsewhere. We get pieces of good parks, and then filler for the rest.

Euro Disneyland is what actually set the bar for theme parks for the 90s, but then Disney let it rot and North American theme parks fans couldn't be bothered to think about it until Disney took full ownership and started pushing it in 2017. Tokyo DisneySea took what Euro Disney did a step further, but only relatively recently (thanks to social media) have people outside of Japan taken notice.

Now decades after Animal Kingdom, Islands of Adventure and Discovery Cove we get our first big new Orlando theme park and it's clearly inspired by past parks and additions that were successful, but lacks the overarching sense of cohesion, "immersion", capacity and consistent attraction quality that much older parks had.

 

[UNCgolf]

For all the talk about raising the bar for theme parks, it's sad to think that The Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center in their primes were better parks than all the other ones Disney and Universal have built since in Orlando.

That's not to say nothing about those newer ones are good, but they have been brought down by a lack of capacity and/or cut corners elsewhere. We get pieces of good parks, and then filler for the rest.

Euro Disneyland is what actually set the bar for theme parks for the 90s, but then Disney let it rot and North American theme parks fans couldn't be bothered to think about it until Disney took full ownership and started pushing it in 2017. Tokyo DisneySea took what Euro Disney did a step further, but only relatively recently (thanks to social media) have people outside of Japan taken notice.

Now decades after Animal Kingdom, Islands of Adventure and Discovery Cove we get our first big new Orlando theme park and it's clearly inspired by past parks and additions that were successful, but lacks the overarching sense of cohesion, "immersion", capacity and consistent attraction quality that much older parks had.

I'd also argue that Universal Studios Florida at opening (well maybe not at opening but in the first few years of operation) had a better attraction lineup than any Universal park since.

That's not to say it was a better overall park experience; just in terms of attraction interest/quality.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

That's not to say it was a better overall park experience; just in terms of attraction interest/quality.

It may have been - it’s certainly lacking what it used to have.

The true positive changes are mummy and Potter. Ideally all of potter would have been in one park.

 

[Jrb1979]

I'd also argue that Universal Studios Florida at opening (well maybe not at opening but in the first few years of operation) had a better attraction lineup than any Universal park since.

That's not to say it was a better overall park experience; just in terms of attraction interest/quality.

If you are into dark rides and theming over thrills it had a better lineup. I'm not so sure today's guests necessarily want that anymore. They want some thrill and short rides. Look at the top rated attractions at both Universal and Disney now. They all have some thrill to them. IMO it's hard to really have immersive theming if you want thrill.

 

[Stripes]

If you are into dark rides and theming over thrills it had a better lineup. I'm not so sure today's guests necessarily want that anymore. They want some thrill and short rides. Look at the top rated attractions at both Universal and Disney now. They all have some thrill to them. IMO it's hard to really have immersive theming if you want thrill.

???

The only thrilling attraction at USF is Rip Ride Rocket and virtually nobody likes that attraction, which is why it's getting torn down soon.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

???

The only thrilling attraction at USF is Rip Ride Rocket and virtually nobody likes that attraction, which is why it's getting torn down soon.

Mummy, Bank and Transformers are definitely thrill attractions.

 

[Stripes]

Mummy, Bank and Transformers are definitely thrill attractions.

I don't think those attractions were the ones he was referring to. If so, how do those attractions sacrifice theming?

 

[Jrb1979]

I don't think those attractions were the ones he was referring to. If so, how do those attractions sacrifice theming?

They sacrifice it by being less focused on AAs and storytelling. To me Universal and Disney should be more focused on rides like Life of Pets, Horizons, World of Motion and Spaceship Earth. All of those have little to no thrill but are what Disney and the original Universal was all about.

 

[Stripes]

They sacrifice it by being less focused on AAs and storytelling. To me Universal and Disney should be more focused on rides like Life of Pets, Horizons, World of Motion and Spaceship Earth. All of those have little to no thrill but are what Disney and the original Universal was all about.

I don't think anybody could make the case that Indiana Jones Adventure lacks immersive theming. The story is simply told through the adventure itself rather than narrative exposition.

Anyway, I actually agree with the point you were seemingly trying to make. Most guests seem to appreciate when some amount of thrill is incorporated into dark ride attractions these days.