Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[mmascari]

American Airlines will no longer allow unvaccinated employees to apply for pandemic leave.

American Airlines ends coronavirus pandemic leave for unvaccinated employees

The Texas-based carrier informed employees of the new policy after the U.S. Food and Drug Administration gave full approval to Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine.

www.foxbusiness.com

Do we know if they are requiring periodic testing for employees? If they are being tested regularly by the employer than this is OK, if not it’s a bad idea. Unvaccinated people who test positive privately will be more likely not to report it to their employer and return to work before the proper quarantine period if they don’t get paid for time off. If they are tested by the employer they can’t hide the positive test results. IMHO don’t go half way, just mandate the vaccine for all workers and offer pandemic leave for anyone with a breakthrough infection. Much easier.

Exactly this, it's the worst of all worlds. It's practically encouraging sick workers to still come to work.

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, it doesn't matter. Policy should be that if you're positive you don't come to work and we don't take steps that would incentivize someone to come to work. That should be the policy no matter why you're sick.

Which means, if you don't want an unvaccinated sick person to show up at work, there's only one solution, don't have unvaccinated workers.


The post about the delivery driver who was positive and still doing deliveries but trying to clean as a mitigation instead wasn't that long ago. Want to bet the work incentives there didn't allow for sick leave without a penalty?

 

[sullyinMT]

Exactly this, it's the worst of all worlds. It's practically encouraging sick workers to still come to work.

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, it doesn't matter. Policy should be that if you're positive you don't come to work and we don't take steps that would incentivize someone to come to work. That should be the policy no matter why you're sick.

Which means, if you don't want an unvaccinated sick person to show up at work, there's only one solution, don't have unvaccinated workers.


The post about the delivery driver who was positive and still doing deliveries but trying to clean as a mitigation instead wasn't that long ago. Want to bet the work incentives there didn't allow for sick leave without a penalty?

You’re right, but I didn’t think that far ahead. If AA or another business has this policy AND requires at-work testing of their unvaccinated employees at the employees’ expense, it will effectively work as a mandate in states where they aren’t allowed to mandate the vaccine (yet). AA is based in TX; not sure if that has anything to do with them trying to find a workaround or not (I know their law is different than FL but not sure how).

If anything, it shows why an employer mandate is the most straightforward policy. And just how creative businesses are willing to get in order to find a way around mandate ban laws if they’re in place.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Factcheck.org has a rundown on the rumor origin and circulation regarding Comirnaty. The mendacity of the rumormongers is stunning.

Researcher Distorts Facts on COVID-19 Vaccine Approval, Liability - FactCheck.org

The Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine was fully approved by the Food and Drug Administration, though an emergency use authorization also remains in place. Dr. Robert Malone misleadingly said Americans are being offered the shot only under the latter and that it carried different liability...

www.factcheck.org

Factcheck.org should be hyperlinked to every Facebook homepage.

Thanks for the link, this newest claim caught me by surprise, although the explanation looks so technical that it will probably go right over the heads of those inclined to believe vaccine conspiracy stories anyway.

 

[mmascari]

You’re right, but I didn’t think that far ahead. If AA or another business has this policy AND requires at-work testing of their unvaccinated employees at the employees’ expense, it will effectively work as a mandate in states where they aren’t allowed to mandate the vaccine (yet). AA is based in TX; not sure if that has anything to do with them trying to find a workaround or not (I know their law is different than FL but not sure how).

If anything, it shows why an employer mandate is the most straightforward policy. And just how creative businesses are willing to get in order to find a way around mandate ban laws if they’re in place.

Yes, if they send you home. Not so much, if they just tell you you're positive and that you should go home but don't force you.

It's easy to send someone home when you tell them they'll get paid anyway. It's harder when you're also telling them they will not. What happens to the person who has no time banked and is told to go home? Is that marked as unexcused missing work, like just skipping a day? The kind of thing that could get you fired, which most people try to avoid. Now you have the conflict of "they told me to leave" vs "no available time, need to be at work".

All the edge case scenarios they have to deal with to avoid just requiring vaccination are insane. Way way easier to just require vaccination. Defending a lawsuit fighting the policy may be easier too, since it wouldn't impact operations and be on the side from normal business, just an expense.


My office hasn't mandated vaccination yet, but they did give us 3 days of extra PTO to get vaccinated or support any family get vaccinated. We're also still mostly remote. I think they were waiting for approval and some OSHA guidelines. We're super risk adverse as a company. I expect it'll show up as mandated by the end of the year. They also changed our flex work arrangements permanently for all in office workers. There's now an expectation that everyone whose job is possible is able to work remote 2 to 3 days a week. Unless your job requires being in the office, stuff like working the high volume printers and mail, they now assume you'll be remote 2 or 3 days a week once people start coming back. Workers who were previously full time remote, no change and seems like they expect some more to apply for this.

 

[Patcheslee]

Exactly this, it's the worst of all worlds. It's practically encouraging sick workers to still come to work.

Vaccinated or unvaccinated, it doesn't matter. Policy should be that if you're positive you don't come to work and we don't take steps that would incentivize someone to come to work. That should be the policy no matter why you're sick.

Which means, if you don't want an unvaccinated sick person to show up at work, there's only one solution, don't have unvaccinated workers.


The post about the delivery driver who was positive and still doing deliveries but trying to clean as a mitigation instead wasn't that long ago. Want to bet the work incentives there didn't allow for sick leave without a penalty?

Far as the pay thing, we don’t get paid 100% if a close contact or someone in our household tests positive unless we test positive ourselves. Still have to take off 10 days though. Vaccination status doesn't matter for us. It's kept some people from wanting to report positive cases in their home.
I never did find out about the outcome of that driver or why he was still working. Last I knew was his employer didn't see it as an issue to continue working. But my employer put them on notice that no confirmed positive person may be on the property and another violation will lose their contract.

 

[GoofGoof]

Factcheck.org should be hyperlinked to every Facebook homepage.

Thanks for the link, this newest claim caught me by surprise, although the explanation looks so technical that it will probably go right over the heads of those inclined to believe vaccine conspiracy stories anyway.

It really doesn’t matter at this point. This is exactly why the focus needs to shift towards mandating vaccination for employment and for certain public activities. The time to allow people to decide for themselves is over. No more pointless debate, no more arguments like this. You do not have to get the vaccine, nobody will hold you down and force you. However, if you aren’t vaccinated you cannot work at more and more locations and you should not be allowed to go to places with large public gatherings like cruise ships and theme parks and air travel and sporting events and bars/clubs. The time to talk is over. I hate to say it, but when this is the argument people are making we are well beyond any rational or sincere discussion.

 

[matt9112]

I did not want to get into the middle of that semantics argument, but I’m not sure how arresting someone is outside of due process. You can be arrested (as long as there is probable cause) and ultimately not get charged for any number of reasons, arrested and charged but found not guilty at trial or arrested, charged and found guilty. It’s all part of the legal due process. If there is no probable cause that a crime was committed then there’s no arrest.

I believe taking someone into custody is limited. Cant just hold people forever for no reason.

Arresting somebody on probable cause is one thing but i also believe in a short time frame you need to be charged. I also think your risk factor if released has some kind of effect. (Ie will you kill another person) but im nowhere near a lawyer!

 

[GoofGoof]

I believe taking someone into custody is limited. Cant just hold people forever for no reason. Umless your turkey .

Arresting somebody on probable cause is one thing but i also believe in a short time frame you need to be charged. I also think your risk factor if released has some kind of effect. (Ie will you kill another person) but im nowhere near a lawyer!

That was my point. Arresting someone with probable cause is part of due process. I never said anything about holding him forever…straw man there. The other guy was arguing that arresting this guy would be denying him due process which is the exact opposite of true.

 

[CLEtoWDW]

In other words… if you are vaccinated then live your life and stop worrying about COVID.

The COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people is roughly equal to 'riding in a vehicle,' recent data suggest

The COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people is roughly equal to 'riding in a vehicle,' recent data suggest

www.yahoo.com

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It’s a poster with a total of 3 posts..one anti-vax post.. one telling someone it’s great that they are staying home and canceling their Disney trip because they don’t feel safe and one saying it’s emergency approved and they will pass. Here we go again. Wonder who this one is.

Dinner with old friends are always nice on a crisp pre-fall evening

 

[JoeCamel]

In other words… if you are vaccinated then live your life and stop worrying about COVID.

The COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people is roughly equal to 'riding in a vehicle,' recent data suggest

The COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people is roughly equal to 'riding in a vehicle,' recent data suggest

www.yahoo.com

Compared to playing the lotto which millions do this has very good odds of happening....

 

[CLEtoWDW]

Compared to playing the lotto which millions do this has very good odds of happening....

Why not compare it to being struck by lightning?

 

[mmascari]

In other words… if you are vaccinated then live your life and stop worrying about COVID.

The COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people is roughly equal to 'riding in a vehicle,' recent data suggest

The COVID-19 risk for vaccinated people is roughly equal to 'riding in a vehicle,' recent data suggest

www.yahoo.com

Sure. But, that doesn't mean just throw all caution to the wind either.

That chance is directly correlated to the pool of transmission you're walking around in. It's worse in a dirty pool than a clean one.

Likewise, if I was going to drive a minivan, I would pick a 2021 Pacifica over a 1997 Aerostar.

2021 Chrysler Pacifica Minivan

2021 Chrysler Pacifica Minivan - minivan

www.iihs.org

1997 Ford Aerostar Minivan

1997 Ford Aerostar Minivan - minivan

www.iihs.org

Taking safer actions to reduce risk isn't a bad thing. Especially if you interact with people at a higher baseline risk.

PS: Clearly, I miss my minivan, what's wrong with me. (Don't answer that.)

 

[Heppenheimer]

It really doesn’t matter at this point. This is exactly why the focus needs to shift towards mandating vaccination for employment and for certain public activities. The time to allow people to decide for themselves is over. No more pointless debate, no more arguments like this. You do not have to get the vaccine, nobody will hold you down and force you. However, if you aren’t vaccinated you cannot work at more and more locations and you should not be allowed to go to places with large public gatherings like cruise ships and theme parks and air travel and sporting events and bars/clubs. The time to talk is over. I hate to say it, but when this is the argument people are making we are well beyond any rational or sincere discussion.

I still have the responsibility to my own patients, though, so I need to be able to counteract the Facebook-inspired anti-vax narratives.

I'm also glad that society at large is starting to apply the necessary pressure to the hold-outs, but on an individual level, I'd rather my patients take the vaccine because they're convinced of the merits.

 

[CLEtoWDW]

Sure. But, that doesn't mean just throw all caution to the wind either.

That chance is directly correlated to the pool of transmission you're walking around in. It's worse in a dirty pool than a clean one.

Likewise, if I was going to drive a minivan, I would pick a 2021 Pacifica over a 1997 Aerostar.

2021 Chrysler Pacifica Minivan

2021 Chrysler Pacifica Minivan - minivan

www.iihs.org

1997 Ford Aerostar Minivan

1997 Ford Aerostar Minivan - minivan

www.iihs.org

Taking safer actions to reduce risk isn't a bad thing. Especially if you interact with people at a higher baseline risk.

PS: Clearly, I miss my minivan, what's wrong with me. (Don't answer that.)

I agree 100% with everything you said here. I’m not saying throw caution to the wind here and drive 120 mph on a highway without seatbelts. But yes… mask in settings such as airplanes and movie theaters. But don’t let COVID be the reason you cancel upcoming vacations. (Again, assuming you’re vaccinated)

 

[mmascari]

Why not compare it to being struck by lightning?

Ummm, when there's lightning outside, I do worry about it. I do my best to avoid being outside and the tallest object when there is a lightning storm in the area?

Have I been doing that wrong? Should I continue to play golf in a lightning storm to "live my life"?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I agree 100% with everything you said here. I’m not saying throw caution to the wind here and drive 120 mph on a highway without seatbelts. But yes… mask in settings such as airplanes and movie theaters. But don’t let COVID be the reason you cancel upcoming vacations. (Again, assuming you’re vaccinated)

I actually agree with you (sorta)…I don’t believe lockdowns of any-type at this point will work.

but vacations? Those are still optional…no matter how many people here have to think about them all day today and everyday or their Brains start to shut down…

but I saw this this morning…huge travel decline in the fall predicted out of the financial district. So the consensus seems to be trending my way on this one

 

[GoofGoof]

I still have the responsibility to my own patients, though, so I need to be able to counteract the Facebook-inspired anti-vax narratives.

I'm also glad that society at large is starting to apply the necessary pressure to the hold-outs, but on an individual level, I'd rather my patients take the vaccine because they're convinced of the merits.

For sure I agree. I was opposed to immediately implementing covid passports and requirements back in the Spring because I thought it would be better if people decided to get the vaccine without being pushed into it. It’s clear now that we won’t get enough people that way. I don’t think it was the wrong approach back then just the next step in the process today. If we went straight to mandates on day 1 we would likely have gotten less people vaccinated. Now that we are up to 3/4 of adults taking the vaccine it’s easier to make vaccines required for certain activities.

 

[Kevin_W]

We are lining up our flu shots appts in mid October to prep for winter / early spring. Some things we do also on a regular basis is check/ replace air filters in our home and cabin air filter in our cars. Breathing in with a dirty air filter can get you sick and makes the unit with the filter even work harder.

One note on the dirty air filters... changing them helps the blowers it the furnace/are not you. Dirty filters don't start letting particles pass through. In fact, they are more efficient the clean filters (unless electrostatic). But yes, it makes the unit work harder which can shorted the life of your blower motor and reduce airflow so that performance is not as good.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

There’s a chance of a worse than normal flu season this winter. Are you going to worry about that too?

Any alleged “highly functioning” adult should consider it and take precautions as possible.

so “business as usual”