News Disney Riviera Resort announced

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Well, for one, they better be nice rooms/suites.

Secondly, there is a premium for being a "park resort", i.e., having special access to a resort either by having special transportation that is not a bus, or, in the case of AKL, having a Savannah with animals hanging outside your porch. And so, Riviera will have its own gondola station to two parks.

Third, they'll have rooftop access (exclusive?) to a restaurant and/or viewing area to watch Epcot and DHS fireworks.

I’m curious...has their ever been an experiment with “exclusive rooftop” access for a food service venue attached to a DVC?

...I wonder how it would go?

 

[nickys]

I’m curious...has their ever been an experiment with “exclusive rooftop” access for a food service venue attached to a DVC?

...I wonder how it would go?

Depends if it’s a full restaurant or more a lounge I guess. Plus it’s size. TOTWL is the only comparison.

But they could restrict it to guests staying there. Or the rooftop is restricted to diners plus members and/or guests of the resort.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Depends if it’s a full restaurant or more a lounge I guess. Plus it’s size. TOTWL is the only comparison.

But they could restrict it to guests staying there. Or the rooftop is restricted to diners plus members and/or guests of the resort.

That’s what I’m referring to and it has NOT gone well. An empty bar save for 25 minutes a night.

now...I think they would account for that and try to create more draw. But the lesson shouldn’t be lost: “exclusive viewing” works better as a trick inside a ticketed gate than it does at a hotel. Gotta provide more.

 

[Lensman]

Depends if it’s a full restaurant or more a lounge I guess. Plus it’s size. TOTWL is the only comparison.

But they could restrict it to guests staying there. Or the rooftop is restricted to diners plus members and/or guests of the resort.

It would be nice if they restricted the lounge to guests and DVC members and also didn't accept DDP for the restaurant. I can't see them doing that (DDP), though, so I just hope they hold back some reservation spots for guests.

 

[kong1802]

What trench?

There are a number of different interconnected issues with the Riviera DVC, so it's an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up! Have we discussed this aspect before in the thread? I've read the whole thing but don't remember a discussion of it's DVC attractiveness.

One aspect is that they simply need another DVC to sell and they're sort of running out of deluxe resorts to convert - though they could continue to convert more of the Poly or WL or build another BLT.

But I suspect that the main aspect is that they'd like to be able to sell a DVC connected to DHS when SW:GE opens. This is their best shot at that. I'm not sure if they could have built anything like it close to DHS without having sightline issues or water management issues or having to build a parking structure or where would they put a lake do they have to build a lake?

I do think that the issue of building a standalone DVC vs one attached to an existing resort and sharing infrastructure is one worth discussing. I remember but can't find a discussion of this, but I recall that the idea came up of Disney using "conversion" as a means of rightsizing their room inventory. So in this case Disney is "converting" a bunch of moderate price-point CBR rooms into higher end DVC Riviera rooms (offset by the addition of moderate price-point CSR rooms, but that may be related or unrelated). In doing so they get to share the Skyliner infrastructure, the lake, as well as probably some utility infrastructure. They also get to convert from the casual low-rise density to the currently more-popular covered, high-rise density that seems to have become more popular for some reason.

Some other factors to note:
1. Disney is getting rid of the "value/moderate/deluxe" categorization.
2. Everyone suspects that the prices will go up for CBR/AoA/Pop after the Skyliner starts running and SW:GE opens and they become more popular.
3. OKW and SSR are also at the old "deluxe" level and continue to be booked, and according to your criteria they have even less going for them. I own at OKW but I'm not offended, don't worry! OKW has great balconies and spacious one and two bedrooms and great grand villas. They're huge if you're used to cramped NYC apartments. Finally, I can't wait for autonomous personal transit to become a reality so I can avoid the bus. I'm also looking forward to whatever the mysteriously rumored non-Skyliner transport replacement is for AKV and whether it will hit OKW/SSR/Disney Springs or CSR?

I think the trend will continue. If Riviera sells well, we'll see another DVC built somewhere on the shores of Barefoot Bay. My bet is just to the north of the new CBR Skyliner station. I think there will likely be another DVC somewhere else between the two - either the second BLT or the FW one, or maybe both?

I understand they want to get rid of the categorization, I'm just having trouble with the "how" of it...There still is a difference in amenities, even if you call a value an "ecpot" resort or whatever.

I totally agree that the prices are going up for the Skyliner resorts...but by how much? I know its WDW, but there is a limit on how much you can charge for a 200 sq ft room with one queen bed and access to a food court.

OKW and SSR are definitely different. However, if you want to stay there off DVC, they still run around $350/night. And OKW and SSR do have some good amenities that you wouldn't find at a moderate. But I agree, they are not up to par with other DVC's, but they also didn't try and sell them at $190/point....

I believe Riviera will sell well, as it seems as though the demand is there for any DVC, really.. I am just wondering what the threshold is to require the premium. Is it as simple as a new room and a shorter walk to the gondola station? Does it really just take an inhouse restaurant and a better shop? If that's all it ends up being, and it sells out no problem, I'm a little worried that the next DVC becomes re apportioned Little mermaid rooms at AoA........

Oh, @Sirwalterraleigh will explain the trench.....

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It would be nice if they restricted the lounge to guests and DVC members and also didn't accept DDP for the restaurant. I can't see them doing that (DDP), though, so I just hope they hold back some reservation spots for guests.

Well it really depends on what it is??

If it’s a culinary take on vibrant French Mediterranean cuisine...then yeah.

If it’s in gastro “no man’s land” between the Wave and Chef Mickey’s?...then you don’t need to worry about extra muscle for crowd control.

 

[Lensman]

I understand they want to get rid of the categorization, I'm just having trouble with the "how" of it...There still is a difference in amenities, even if you call a value an "ecpot" resort or whatever.

I totally agree that the prices are going up for the Skyliner resorts...but by how much? I know its WDW, but there is a limit on how much you can charge for a 200 sq ft room with one queen bed and access to a food court.

OKW and SSR are definitely different. However, if you want to stay there off DVC, they still run around $350/night. And OKW and SSR do have some good amenities that you wouldn't find at a moderate. But I agree, they are not up to par with other DVC's, but they also didn't try and sell them at $190/point....

I believe Riviera will sell well, as it seems as though the demand is there for any DVC, really.. I am just wondering what the threshold is to require the premium. Is it as simple as a new room and a shorter walk to the gondola station? Does it really just take an inhouse restaurant and a better shop? If that's all it ends up being, and it sells out no problem, I'm a little worried that the next DVC becomes re apportioned Little mermaid rooms at AoA........

Oh, @Sirwalterraleigh will explain the trench.....

Your post got me thinking about what defines a Disney deluxe resort. (I actually originally said luxury hotel, but as often discussed Disney deluxe resorts fall short of the luxury hotel standards in several areas)

1. Nice furniture and bedding. High thread counts, weird pillows and lots of them, art that's actually interesting, if not original, nice design and materials in the bathroom, if there's a second bathroom, it has a separate shower/tub. Hidden television.
2. More than adequate room size. My point is that not that the room being bigger means that it's a deluxe resort, but that when they design the resort, they have a certain price point in mind and that that price point sets the standard room size for that price point.
3. Table service restaurant, signature dining preferred. OKW and SSR fall a little short here.
4. Spa/Salon/Health Club
5. Real flowers in the lobby.
6. I'm sure there are others that people more well-versed than I am on hotel ratings can give us.
7. Expensive parking

As an example, there's no question that some people prefer to stay at the Four Seasons because it's the most well-appointed hotel in the area, even though you have to take the bus to all the parks. (and does the Four Seasons bus drop you off at the TTC, not directly at the Magic Kingdom?)

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I believe Riviera will sell well, as it seems as though the demand is there for any DVC, really.. I am just wondering what the threshold is to require the premium. Is it as simple as a new room and a shorter walk to the gondola station? Does it really just take an inhouse restaurant and a better shop? If that's all it ends up being, and it sells out no problem, I'm a little worried that the next DVC becomes re apportioned Little mermaid rooms at AoA........

Oh, @Sirwalterraleigh will explain the trench.....

If people are ok with standalone timeshares with little amenity...then it is officially Just another timeshare...and we’ll never get another nice one again.

And I’m not touching the ditch...except to say that the repurposed housekeepers from Barbados are making “slow...but significant” progress and are roughly 50 feet past the Barbados bus stop...insiders confirm. Similar to the construction of the Gatun Locks circa 1913.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Your post got me thinking about what defines a Disney deluxe resort. (I actually originally said luxury hotel, but as often discussed Disney deluxe resorts fall short of the luxury hotel standards in several areas)

1. Nice furniture and bedding. High thread counts, weird pillows and lots of them, art that's actually interesting, if not original, nice design and materials in the bathroom, if there's a second bathroom, it has a separate shower/tub. Hidden television.
2. More than adequate room size. My point is that not that the room being bigger means that it's a deluxe resort, but that when they design the resort, they have a certain price point in mind and that that price point sets the standard room size for that price point.
3. Table service restaurant, signature dining preferred. OKW and SSR fall a little short here.
4. Spa/Salon/Health Club
5. Real flowers in the lobby.
6. I'm sure there are others that people more well-versed than I am on hotel ratings can give us.
7. Expensive parking

As an example, there's no question that some people prefer to stay at the Four Seasons because it's the most well-appointed hotel in the area, even though you have to take the bus to all the parks. (and does the Four Seasons bus drop you off at the TTC, not directly at the Magic Kingdom?)

It doesn’t matter anymore...they’re dumping the “deluxe” monacre in favor of large increases to all. It’s just gonna be “varying pricing” moving forward.

I think perhaps only all stars may retain somewhat of a traditional category...unless they outsource them - which I could totally see.

 

[Flynnwriter]

My theory is they The Riviera dvc project will be a lower entry price to buy into DVC. There is an audience for DVC who cannot afford the current buy in price. In return, the resort will have lower points per night, and less charm to offer, leaving current DVC members turned off by this 3-Star, sub-par offering.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

My theory is they The Riviera dvc project will be a lower entry price to buy into DVC. There is an audience for DVC who cannot afford the current buy in price. In return, the resort will have lower points per night, and less charm to offer, leaving current DVC members turned off by this 3-Star, sub-par offering.

I would be less surprised if i woke up tomorrow with my head sewn to the carpet.

I see no way there’s any price break...nor do I see them breaking for one second from their 10+ year policy of not caring at all who can and can’t “afford it”...We’ve crossed the rubicon on that.

 

[nickys]

My theory is they The Riviera dvc project will be a lower entry price to buy into DVC. There is an audience for DVC who cannot afford the current buy in price. In return, the resort will have lower points per night, and less charm to offer, leaving current DVC members turned off by this 3-Star, sub-par offering.

I put money on it almost breaking the $200 per point mark!

It just doesn’t work with the set up of DVC. Lower price, lower points. But at 7months those same points can be used at GFV. Not gonna happen.

If it does happen, I would actually expect the demand from existing members to be so high that they sell out of the first declared points before non-members can buy. People will buy their 75 points to qualify for full perks, and existing buyers who are already blue-card members will top up with cheap points. Both my boys will be getting their own contracts!

 

[kong1802]

If people are ok with standalone timeshares with little amenity...then it is officially Just another timeshare...and we’ll never get another nice one again.

And I’m not touching the ditch...except to say that the repurposed housekeepers from Barbados are making “slow...but significant” progress and are roughly 50 feet past the Barbados bus stop...insiders confirm. Similar to the construction of the Gatun Locks circa 1913.

Thank you for that. Those insiders underestimated the housekeeping staff for the last time.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Thank you for that. Those insiders underestimated the housekeeping staff for the last time.

...what can I say? I’m there champion, Lav

 

[MisterPenguin]

1. Disney is getting rid of the "value/moderate/deluxe" categorization.

I understand they want to get rid of the categorization, I'm just having trouble with the "how" of it..

Remember, this rumor isn't from our usual insiders, nor has been backed up by our usual insiders. And even then, like all rumors, may not come to pass.

If you go to Disney's website, they've already reclassified their hotels categories several times. All DVC Villas for rent, and the campgrounds, are now their own category outside of Value/Moderate/Deluxe categories (though they do call their villas "Deluxe Villas"). Swolphin has been moved out of Disney deluxe to it's own category. And you have distinct categories for hotel 'families' of: Disney Springs; Four Seasons; Gateway; and, Good Neighbor.

So, without the Villas, campground, and Swolphin in the mix, that leaves the traditional "Disney hotels" designated at three price points. If there was ever a time to just lump them as "Disney Resorts" and let the computer allow the user to sort them by price, I think it would have been done already.

Right now CBR "starts at $172". Meanwhile, deluxe "starts at $345". Unless the gondola spurs WDW to double the price of CBR, then CBR will still comfortably sit in the Moderate zone. Same with Pop and AoA -- unless their price goes up a whopping 80%, they'll still fall in the Value range.

Right now, looking at the first week of October, looks like a 40%-50% increase ($170). But then again, All Star Sports is $157 for that same time frame. <shrug> Not the hundreds of dollars more per night than what some have thrown around.

Edit Update: first week of Nov in 2019, Pop is $138.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Remember, this rumor isn't from our usual insiders, nor has been backed up by our usual insiders. And even then, like all rumors, may not come to pass.

If you go to Disney's website, they've already reclassified their hotels categories several times. All DVC Villas for rent, and the campgrounds, are now their own category outside of Value/Moderate/Deluxe categories (though they do call their villas "Deluxe Villas"). Swolphin has been moved out of Disney deluxe to it's own category. And you have distinct categories for hotel 'families' of: Disney Springs; Four Seasons; Gateway; and, Good Neighbor.

So, without the Villas, campground, and Swolphin in the mix, that leaves the traditional "Disney hotels" designated at three price points. If there was ever a time to just lump them as "Disney Resorts" and let the computer allow the user to sort them by price, I think it would have been done already.

Right now CBR "starts at $172". Meanwhile, deluxe "starts at $345". Unless the gondola spurs WDW to double the price of CBR, then CBR will still comfortably sit in the Moderate zone. Same with Pop and AoA -- unless their price goes up a whopping 80%, they'll still fall in the Value range.

Right now, looking at the first week of October, looks like a 40%-50% increase ($170). But then again, All Star Sports is $157 for that same time frame. <shrug> Not the hundreds of dollars more per night than what some have thrown around.

Edit Update: first week of Nov in 2019, Pop is $138.

Prices have been in “evolution” for several decades...way more complex to break it down than once was...

I know you like charts...so I’ve included a couple for October. Caribbean for 2019 and pop for 2018...fall period you’re referring too. Not such a simple conversation than when they had 2 or 3 prices that changed rates roughly 5 Times per year.

The “moderates” and “values” have gone wayyyyyyyy up in the last 10-15 years. Now how do I know that? Well...you’ve convinced yourself that only a handful of people that lurk around here would know...not that perhaps people actually worked with them (perhaps even have them memorized before the crazy iger era?) I know it’s a shocking conversation.

What is going to happen with the ski lift line? Well...you don’t know...nor do I. YET. But get ready once mgm is online...an informed opinion is a 25% increase (minimum) for 2020...with continued escalation based on overall economy (the X factor...it’s coming).

Now check with the insiders and see what they think

 

[MisterPenguin]

What is going to happen with the ski lift line? Well...you don’t know...nor do I. YET.

You can already see prices for the fall of 2019 in which the Skyline is in operation, as I said.

 

[CLEtoWDW]

Prices have been in “evolution” for several decades...way more complex to break it down than once was...

I know you like charts...so I’ve included a couple for October. Caribbean for 2019 and pop for 2018...fall period you’re referring too. Not such a simple conversation than when they had 2 or 3 prices that changed rates roughly 5 Times per year.

The “moderates” and “values” have gone wayyyyyyyy up in the last 10-15 years. Now how do I know that? Well...you’ve convinced yourself that only a handful of people that lurk around here would know...not that perhaps people actually worked with them (perhaps even have them memorized before the crazy iger era?) I know it’s a shocking conversation.

What is going to happen with the ski lift line? Well...you don’t know...nor do I. YET. But get ready once mgm is online...an informed opinion is a 25% increase (minimum) for 2020...with continued escalation based on overall economy (the X factor...it’s coming).

Now check with the insiders and see what they think

Predicting price increases in Disney is like trying to predict next month’s weather. Sure you can use historical data that suggests that price hikes will continue but let’s not forget we an economic recession away from price suppression. I remember Disney from 2009-2012 as our economy dug itself out of a crippling recession some of their hotel/ticket deals were insanely inexpensive compare to today.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Predicting price increases in Disney is like trying to predict next month’s weather. Sure you can use historical data that suggests that price hikes will continue but let’s not forget we an economic recession away from price suppression. I remember Disney from 2009-2012 as our economy dug itself out of a crippling recession some of their hotel/ticket deals were insanely inexpensive compare to today.

That specific example is what leads towards the conclusion that things will escalate no matter what. (I know the tactics...I was trained in them/formulated some of them...but I’m waiting for mr. Penguin to confirm all that with a vague non-committal from the insiders)

The tactics changed during the housing crash. What they did was steep temporary coupons/discounts but didn’t freeze the base price - they actually increased them. That’s a departure...where in bad economics they’d hold them or slow the rate of rise. What happened - and it was said as it happened- is by 2014 the costs are much higher across the board. To put it succinctly, the trap was laid and we are getting pummeled.

Now...what happens in the next downturn? That’s a huge question...I can’t think of a more interesting scenario in my 20 years of “non-insider” business experience and following...

 

[pdude81]

I put money on it almost breaking the $200 per point mark!

It just doesn’t work with the set up of DVC. Lower price, lower points. But at 7months those same points can be used at GFV. Not gonna happen.

If it does happen, I would actually expect the demand from existing members to be so high that they sell out of the first declared points before non-members can buy. People will buy their 75 points to qualify for full perks, and existing buyers who are already blue-card members will top up with cheap points. Both my boys will be getting their own contracts!

Agreed; there is no way they would drop the price per point. That's been the only really consistent thing to rise over time as it's almost it's own currency. If they were going to do this you'd be able to buy Aulani for less than the newer resorts. My guess is that we'll be looking at $188 or at most $191 per point when the Riviera goes on sale, but they can value the rooms however they like in points per night. The master declaration is going to set how ambitious this plan will be, but since there don't appear to be any point eating cabins on the water I think we should assume rooms will be valued more like GFV than CCV.