Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Ep 8). SPOILERS. Plot points revealed and discussed.

[MisterPenguin]

So, I really liked it. And one of the reasons I liked it was because of the tropes that were broken. They didn't break all the tropes, which means, that near the end of the movie, I was left in the state of thinking: Anything can happen! Which, for me, means it's a great action and suspense movie.

So, what tropes?

Actor who dies in real life is killed off in the movie. Surely they wouldn't have General Leia survive now that Carrie is dead? Wrong! In what I thought was the for-sure death scene, she Forces her way back to life. And once in the Critical Unit bed, we would surely have a death scene with Rey or Poe crying at her side. Wrong! She comes back large and in control. Surely she would be the one to make the last sacrifice to save everyone. Wrong! She's doing just fine at the end of the movie.

Hot shot hunky pilot saves the day. Poe gambled on a tactic to take out the Dreadnought's guns. His piloting skills would save the day. Wrong! BB-8 nearly had to sacrifice himself to save Poe's recklessness. And that recklessness led to a Pyrrhic victory. The Dreadnought was taken out, but so was all the Resistance's bombers and a lot of lives. When you have few resources, you don't take on someone with greater resources in a tit-for-tat trade-off. You lose. And he disobeyed orders. And his other gambit to take out the Cruise ships hyperspace tracker failed. And his mutiny failed. And his charge against the battering engine failed. His actions led to the severe losses. He demanded information from his superior (who had a plan but didn't tell him). And he behaved treasonously. And he didn't get any girl. The only reward for his recklessness is no court martial.

This is the Saga of a Special Family. Starting with Anakin's 'virgin birth', he was prophesied as the one to restore balance to the Force. And his family: Luke, Leia, and Ben were strong in the force because they're related to him. And this trilogy of trilogies is all about this special family. Therefor, if Rey has especially strong Force sensitivity, she must be of Anakin's lineage (or of some other strong Force wielder... Obi-Wan? Sidious? Snoke?)... Wrong! She's a nobody. Which is the normal thing for this universe. Everyone who was part of the Jedi order before it was destroyed were random beings who were Force sensitive. You didn't have to be born into a special family to be a Jedi (or a Sith). And that is Rey. And the stable boy at the end. We're back to the roots of how the Jedi ordinarily works. The family dynasty was the outlier. But the trilogies tricked us into thinking it's only this family that's got the juice. Nope. Ordinary people can have it, too.

From a Certain Perspective. The story of Ben's turning turned into a he said-he said affair. First, it was Ben turning evil and killing everyone. Then it was Luke, sensing evil, tried to kill Ben, but he escaped. Then it was Luke, sensing evil, was going to kill Ben, but then repented, but Ben didn't know that and escaped. The story kept getting more complicated as seen from different sides.

What a Way to Go. No one should be surprised that Ben killed Snoke. No one. That's what Sith do. Sidious killed Plageius. Vader killed Sidious. The other Star Wars novels and series and comic books make this a regular practice. What was surprising was the ignominious death of a surprise slicing of the abdomen. But where is the deep lore of Snoke's origins? Where is the lengthy chess game extended through three movies to bring him down? Surprise!! He's not the big bad after all. And who cares about some unknown monster who's just a personification of evil? The real threat has an origin story, and conflict, and history with the heroes... Good ol' Ben. That will be a more satisfying battle than with Big Dark Force. And it was surprising how Big Dark Force got it in the end. And he deserved it after the non-stop belittling of his patsy. But, glad he's gone. Besides, there will be lots of novels and other media to delve into there to tell that story....

Porgs! We all assumed they were going to be a plot device. Something cute and annoying that, once befriended, will save the day in their own annoying way. Wrong! They were just cute and annoying. And that's all. Something for a Wookie, whom we can't understand, to interact with who don't have to repeat back what he said in some way to clue in the audience.

The rogue's a rogue. The codebreaker seemed like he was going to be a rogue with a heart of gold when he returned Rose's medallion. Wrong! He totally sold them out. (Anyone who's watched Rebels would see that coming, but not those who only know the trilogies.)

Send out the call, and they'll help us. The resistance is alive and there are people at the edges just waiting for the call and they'll come to save us. Wrong! While we did see the resistance alive with the stable hands, they didn't have the resources to help. When Ep 9 comes, the resistance is going to be starting from scratch. Which is good. It builds on the power of hope and ordinary people to resist tyranny. But for now, the resistance is just the people on the Falcon. Underdogs indeed!

 

[englanddg]

You know what is missing?

A real threat.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You know what is missing?

A real threat.

...or a reason to care. These rebels live in a galaxy where it seems nothing other than junkyards and casinos are left...

What and who are they fighting for? Never had to ask that question in any of the Lucas movies...even if the prequels blew.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Since this is spoiler away...

I respect that they didn't recut the film when fisher died...

...but I woulda killed the character off by now anyway...

It's been a disaster...I'm sorry, if you can no longer pronounce dialogue, you should not be in talking pictures...

This has been an experiment in recognizing an old Hollywood sage...not much more. It's been painful to watch. And then she entered the matrix...that's jar jar level from a visual standpoint.

 

[englanddg]

...or a reason to care. These rebels live in a galaxy where it seems nothing other than junkyards and casinos are left...

What and who are they fighting for? Never had to ask that question in any of the Lucas movies...even if the prequels blew.

Well, I was going a slightly different direction.

So, one of the things that bothers me about it (and bothers me about ST: D, frankly)...is the way they portray military operations...or, heck, civilian ones.

Environment as a whole has become a greenscreen (and I'm not talking about the effects), with lots of "detail", but little nuance or realism.

But...where I was going with it is...

Hux - A clown who loses a dreadnaught in the first scene to a half arsed attack...and, yeah, yeah, I know Poe was supposed to look the hero in this, but come on...if ONE star fighter (even Luke didn't go in with ONE starfighter) can do that...meh. And, the "your mother" joke, everthing towards the beginning. It sounded like something Seth Green would write, not Canon in a universe taking itself seriously trying to present serious things. But, I know some writer thought "oh, this is so witty, oh snap!".

And, then this overwhelming battleship we've never seen before with super duper guns and everything....can't swat a fly.

Now, that is fine when it is once in a while (the Falcon hiding on the back of a Star Destroyer)...but, it is every...danged...scene... Every encounter. No losses, no wins. Just total ineptness.

And...Hux. Hux, acting like a buffoon.

Oh, but then you have Ren, who, while he is growing on me as a character (mostly due to the good acting, not the writing)...is still overly emotional and just...stupid.

Flat...out...stupid.

So, my point is...why do I not really care? There is no threat.

 

[englanddg]

...or a reason to care. These rebels live in a galaxy where it seems nothing other than junkyards and casinos are left...

What and who are they fighting for? Never had to ask that question in any of the Lucas movies...even if the prequels blew.

But, building on that...another thought I had quite often...

For a "battle for the fate of the galaxy"...these are some pretty small fleets.

And, now we are left with a Resistance that can snugly fit into the Falcon?

I can't wait for Obi Che Gue-nobi in the next one, I suppose. Overthrowing the ebil capitalist pigs from the casino world.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

But, building on that...another thought I had quite often...

For a "battle for the fate of the galaxy"...these are some pretty small fleets.

And, now we are left with a Resistance that can snugly fit into the Falcon?

I can't wait for Obi Che Gue-nobi in the next one, I suppose. Overthrowing the ebil capitalist pigs from the casino world.

I said this on the other thread...if you're gonna "de-escalate" a war and have practically no resources and scrap/outdated equipment...

...Except the bad guys who appear to be the Lucas galaxy equivalent of hezbollah and bought a gigantic starkiller from gunrunners who play baccarat...

...then you have to explain WHY????!!!???

That's 5 year old oversight and a complete overcompensation for the prequel criticism of "too political". Bad acting and insignificant plot toys was why the prequels were hated...not "can't be bothered with the backstory"

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

But, building on that...another thought I had quite often...

For a "battle for the fate of the galaxy"...these are some pretty small fleets.

And, now we are left with a Resistance that can snugly fit into the Falcon?

I can't wait for Obi Che Gue-nobi in the next one, I suppose. Overthrowing the ebil capitalist pigs from the casino world.

I have seen this already...that it's such a good thing because "now we're REALLY Underdogs"...

As opposed to every second of 4,5,6,7, and 8?

It's ridiculous

 

[englanddg]

I have seen this already...that it's such a good thing because "now we're REALLY Underdogs"...

As opposed to every second of 4,5,6,7, and 8?

It's ridiculous

Well, in some ways, I have a theory about it all...the angle they may be taking (if you assume it is deliberate, I'm not sure how much of it is...I'm sorry, the Snoke death, for example, again...you would think that came straight out of a Robot Chicken episode, not Canon).

But, the prequels.

When I saw them in the the theater, I didn't like any of them. One was...okkkk? Two was terrible. Three was...decent.

And, I sortof didn't watch them again for a long time. About 10 years. Then, someone kept raving that I REALLY need to see Clone Wars, and when it came on Netflix...I did.

And...then I went back and rewatched the prequels (and the originals). And, the story was much better. Much deeper. All of a sudden, Dooku made sense to me. Grievous was a character that had depth, not just Lucas showing off his robot effects. The movies weren't any better, but with context, they were better to me.

And, there is a LOT of external content being thrown out surrounding these movies. Mobile games, xBox games, cartoon series (I assume), soon to be live action series (I assume, rumored), comics, new novels, etc...

And, I wonder, if I consume all this extra media...does it make me appreciate these movies any more like Clone Wars made me appreciate the complex story Lucas was trying to tell more?

Dunno.

And, if you were a company looking to milk this for every friggin penny you can...and you know your "general audience" will see the films, and want to know more, and therefore consume the other media...?

Well, the movie itself doesn't have to be great. It has to introduce new things to expand upon outside of the movie. That's a completely different mindset than when the first trilogy was done, where the movies had to stand on their own, for the most part...

See what I'm getting at?

 

[englanddg]

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

I defended Rey when Force Awakened came out from many calling her a Mary Sue, expecting her feats to have some sort of explanation going forward. And to be fair, there's still a chance Last Jedi might have been lying to us and planting red herrings about her being "nobody". But as it stands with the current movies, her abilities make no sense whatsoever and I would indeed label her a Mary Sue.

The problem with Rey is not that she's a nobody who becomes a jedi. The issue is how she learned it (she really didn't), her progression (there is none) and who she is able to defeat (a stretch even in an ideal situation).

Anakin had the highest force potential on record and still needed a lot of training to pull off anything beyond unconscious instinct and reflex based feats. Rey's great piloting skills make sense within the context of what Anakin and Luke did. But she exhibits advanced feats that even the most powerful jedi couldn't do without a lot of training. With no training or knowledge of the ability, and minimal effort, she mind tricks a stormtrooper. Before that, she managed to fight off Kylo Ren's mental probe and turn it back on him. She later overpowers his telekinetic pull and claims the lightsaber as her own. Again this was without ANY sort of training whatsoever, against an insanely powerful and highly trained Skywalker (albeit wounded at this point, though not earlier with the mind probe).

To put it into perspective, Luke started out as a great pilot with excellent reflexes and instincts just like his father. He inherited his father's strength in the force, whose raw potential Geoge Lucas stated in an interview to be twice that of the Emperor's. Yet it took Luke three years (after learning about the force and a few lessons from Obi Wan) to being barely able to move his lightsaber about 12 inches. And that was without there being another immensely powerful (and highly trained) Skywalker fighting him over the blade. He progressed much quicker with Yoda, but we still saw him struggle. At the beginning he had difficulty levitating one small stone, eventually with time he was able to handle several larger objects at once (with visible effort). Regardless, it was with a lot of intense training that he got to where he did at the end of Ep5. After all of this, Luke still ended up losing fairly spectacularly against his father. This also in spite of Vader being a broken shell of his former self, losing over half of his original force potential due to his injuries. Not to mention his heavy and uncomfortable armor, prosthetic limbs and breathing equipment.

There are a lot of problems with Rey's feats of power. If she's not a Skywalker or another "Chosen One" (or some other explanation to put her on their strength in the force), there is no reason she should be able to compare to or overpower Kylo Ren (a highly trained Skywalker demonstrated to be very powerful). Even with years of intensive training, it should be difficult if not impossible for a supposed "nobody" to defeat such an adversary. She can still be uncommonly gifted with the force compared to other jedi or sith, Yoda and the Emperor were extremely powerful and it's not implausible that she could be in their ballpark or even above them. But that still shouldn't put her on par with a Skywalker. And again, unlike Yoda or the Emperor, she still lacks the necessary experience to logically explain her feats.

Suffice to say, I found Rey a promising character in Episode 7. And again, it's entirely possible (perhaps even likely) that they're misleading us about her. I still find her personality kind and likable (she isn't annoying and is well acted by Daisy Ridley), but as of now her character is a nonsensical mess. And yes, a Mary Sue.

 

[spacemt354]

Marinating on it since Thursday - The Last Jedi is a bold new direction for the franchise, and I still love it. It's not flawless, but they took a lot of swings for the fences, and hit more home runs than not.

As a preamble, The Force Awakens has not held up for me on repeat viewings. Initially, nostalgia took over, but I don't want another Death Star, another Emperor, another Tarkin and Vader, another hero on a desert planet who is found by a droid with a message, who then goes off on an adventure with an older, wiser mentor to defend the galaxy. I don't want another trilogy that has the heroes winning in round 1, the villains winning in round 2, and happily ever after round 3. I wanted something new.

Some of my favorite aspects:
- The Ying and Yang: The Force dichotomy that was clearly shown between Ben Solo and Rey. Force Skype, how they both have the light and the dark, the clear symbolism in the armed guard fight between light and dark, etc. Essentially now you have a different perspective of the Jedi Order, once thought to be inherently priest-like guardians of peace, but as Luke says Darth Sidious was right under their nose and Vader derived from them, so how good could they have been? Star Wars has always been a story of good and evil sides, and touched on the good and evil within us, and to me, this film explored that even deeper by essentially saying that sometimes, acts have an opposite effect. Poe's heroic act offset by losing the bombers. Luke's Machiavellian moment to kill Kylo leads to the destruction of his Order. The fact that our main characters are not cut and paste 'good guy' 'bad guy' stereotypes, is refreshing. It was one of the reasons I liked Rogue One, which dealt with even the rebels not being squeaky clean.

- Visuals: Rian Johnson directed the most beautiful Star Wars film I've ever seen. The space battles, lightspeed through the Star Destroyer, wide shots of Crait, and easily my favorite shot in all of Star Wars history....'The Spark' by John Williams building in the background, as the camera is placed behind Luke Skywalker standing alone staring up against the entire First Order army. Goodness gracious!

- The Philosophies: 'Let the past die' is a central theme of this film. Who are Rey's parents? Two drunks who dropped her off...doesn't matter who your parents are...keep moving forward. Who was Snoke? Who cares...keep moving forward. Luke feeling guilty for failing Kylo?...he has to move on past it. Those old Jedi texts, as Yoda tells him 'page turners, they were not'. It's a clear message that this is not going to rely on the past...we are getting a new, fresh take on Star Wars.

One of my favorite lines of the film was (and I'm paraphrasing) 'If you only believe in the sun during the day, how will you survive at night?'
Which I thought was called back in the final shot with the stable boy looking up into the night sky, after playing with his makeshift action figures re-enacting Luke's battle, now 'sparked' with the hope for change in the galaxy.

Overall, some may be meh on it, others might feel it is too far far away from the original trilogy they grew up with. I can respect that.

But, note that is the minority opinion, despite the vocal negative online chatter.

93% on Rotten Tomatoes, 86% MetaCritic, A rating CinemaScore, tracking a $200+ Million Opening Weekend. Star Wars as a franchise will be just fine with this new generation of films and audiences. I can't wait to see what they do with Episode IX.

 

[englanddg]

I defended Rey when Force Awakened came out from many calling her a Mary Sue, expecting her feats to have some sort of explanation going forward. And they may end up still having some reasoning in the future movies, Last Jedi might be lying to us and planting red herrings. But as it stands with the current explanation, her abilities make no sense whatsoever and I would indeed call her a Mary Sue.

The problem with Rey is not that she's a nobody who ends up becoming a jedi. That is the case with most jedi. The issue is how she learned to use the force (she really didn't), the progression of her abilities (there is none) and who she is able to overpower (which are a stretch even in an ideal situation).

Even someone with an unnaturally high force potential such as Anakin still needed to undergo a lot of training to pull off anything beyond unconscious instinct and reflex based feats. Rey's great piloting skills at least make sense to a degree within the context of what Anakin and Luke did. But she exhibits advanced feats that even the most powerful force users couldn't do without training for some time. With no training or knowledge of the ability, and minimal effort, she mind tricks a stormtrooper. Before even this, she managed to fight off Kylo Ren's mental probe and turn it back on him to invade HIS mind. Later she also overpowers his telekinetic ability and pulls the lightsaber to her hand. Again this was without ANY sort of training whatsoever, against an insanely powerful and highly trained Skywalker (albeit wounded at this point, though not earlier with the mind probe).

To put it into perspective, Luke started out as a great pilot with excellent reflexes and instincts just like his father. He inherited his father's strength in the force, whose raw potential Geoge Lucas stated in an interview to be twice that of the Emperor's. Yet it took Luke three years (after learning about the force and a few lessons from Obi Wan) to being barely able to move his lightsaber about 12 inches. And that was without there being another immensely powerful (and highly trained) Skywalker fighting him over the blade. He progressed much quicker with Yoda, but we still saw him struggle. At the beginning he had difficulty levitating one small stone, eventually with time he was able to handle several larger objects at once (with visible effort). Regardless, it was with a lot of intense training that he got to where he did at the end of Ep5. After all of this, Luke still ended up losing fairly spectacularly against his father. This also in spite of Vader being a broken shell of his former self, losing over half of his original force potential due to his injuries. Not to mention his heavy and uncomfortable armor, prosthetic limbs and breathing equipment.

There are a lot of problems with Rey's feats of power. If she's not a Skywalker or another "Chosen One" (or some other explanation to put her on their strength in the force), there is no reason she should be able to compare to or overpower Kylo Ren (a highly trained Skywalker demonstrated to be very powerful). Even with years of intensive training, it should be difficult if not impossible for a supposed "nobody" to defeat such an adversary. She can still be uncommonly gifted with the force compared to other jedi or sith, Yoda and the Emperor were extremely powerful and it's not implausible that she could be in their ballpark or even above them. But that still shouldn't put her on par with a Skywalker. And again, unlike Yoda or the Emperor, she still lacks the necessary experience to logically explain her feats.

Suffice to say, I found Rey a promising character in Episode 7. And again, it's entirely possible (perhaps even likely) that they're misleading us about her. I still find her personality kind and likable (she isn't annoying and is well acted by Daisy Ridley), but as of now her character is a nonsensical mess. And yes, a Mary Sue.

I think you hit it though.

And, this is where I think the writers are being too "clever". I suspect in Ep 9 we will see some big reveal that she isn't just a nobody, or blah blah. And that Ren was lying to her about her "repressed memories".

We shall see.

I...like the character. A lot. And, I think all of this stuff could have been fixed with some better training montage type stuff (Luke at Dagobah type scenes).

They should have spent less time on that stupid Casino planet, and more on the island, or even just tacked 10 minutes onto the already too long film, and made the audience much more vested in her as either the "underdog", or at least explain why she is so powerful (outside of some weird prism scene that also disappointed...).

The issue, again...as I said earlier in this thread...by making her so successful, so perfect, so unquestioning, so adept...

And, in contrast, her opponents the exact opposite (well, except for Snoke, until Snoke proved pointless...and that was when the movie finally deflated for me and I started to REALLY get bored)...

There is no threat.

 

[spacemt354]

There is no threat.

The threat is from within...not the stereotypical old evil guy sitting in a chair with ultimate power.

The threat is that both Rey and Kylo have raw power with the force, they are the Ying and Yang of the Force with Snoke and Luke gone, and either of them could swing the galaxy into chaos with just one turn to the dark, or ...they could have an equal and opposite change for good with one act. You can have an entire fleet, but one little action can offset it.

These are themes central to Star Wars (ie - small X-Wings blowing up battle stations) however it has presented differently here than in previous films...which connects with some, others not so much.

 

[englanddg]

Marinating on it since Thursday - The Last Jedi is a bold new direction for the franchise

I've read better fan fiction in an Imagineering competition...to be frank.

As a preamble, The Force Awakens has not held up for me on repeat viewings.

That should be a warning to you...to think critically about this one. And, I agree. Though, I actually did watch it 3 times, unlike Rogue One, which only got 1.5 viewings from me. THAT movie...was bad.

Initially, nostalgia took over, but I don't want another Death Star, another Emperor, another Tarkin and Vader, another hero on a desert planet who is found by a droid with a message, who then goes off on an adventure with an older, wiser mentor to defend the galaxy. I don't want another trilogy that has the heroes winning in round 1, the villains winning in round 2, and happily ever after round 3. I wanted something new.

I think how the community of older fans and younger fans at large accepted Clone Wars and Rebels, shows...new stories aren't bad at all. New characters, aren't bad at all. And, it's the UNIVERSE we want to explore...and that doesn't mean we need fan service to do it. The second trilogy, this late in the game, would have been much stronger, imho, if they had tossed a few cameos in, but otherwise, just gone off in their own direction. Telling a "different" story about Star Wars.

But, they didn't. With this movie, though, I did get the feeling that the architects (if there really are any at Disney) that are responsible for binding all the Canon together, want to shed the old universe for good. And, you know what, I'm fine with that. I wish they had done that one movie ago...

Some of my favorite aspects:
- The Ying and Yang: The Force dichotomy that was clearly shown between Ben Solo and Rey. Force Skype, how they both have the light and the dark, the clear symbolism in the armed guard fight between light and dark, etc. Essentially now you have a different perspective of the Jedi Order, once thought to be inherently priest-like guardians of peace, but as Luke says Darth Sidious was right under their nose and Vader derived from them, so how good could they have been? Star Wars has always been a story of good and evil sides, and touched on the good and evil within us, and to me, this film explored that even deeper by essentially saying that sometimes, acts have an opposite effect. Poe's heroic act offset by losing the bombers. Luke's Machiavellian moment to kill Kylo leads to the destruction of his Order. The fact that our main characters are not cut and paste 'good guy' 'bad guy' stereotypes, is refreshing. It was one of the reasons I liked Rogue One, which dealt with even the rebels not being squeaky clean.

Quite. And, in Rebels they get into the Grey Jedi. That is now Canon. I expected that this go around, but we'll see. That said, heroic isn't stupid (referring to Poe), and what Luke did was far from Machiavellian (Machiavelli preferred not to use confrontation or force at all...re-read the Prince...if any character in this movie was close to Machiavellian, it was Snoke, who then died in a cool scene, but one that could easily have been written by Seth Green for Robot Chicken).

- Visuals: Rian Johnson directed the most beautiful Star Wars film I've ever seen. The space battles, lightspeed through the Star Destroyer, wide shots of Crait, and easily my favorite shot in all of Star Wars history....'The Spark' by John Williams building in the background, as the camera is placed behind Luke Skywalker standing alone staring up against the entire First Order army. Goodness gracious!

I disagree. This movie was dark and boring, with recurring visuals and not much action, and certainly very little that was unique (unique to Star Wars, if you want to call a casino straight out of a Star Trek TNG episode with aliens in it unique). If you want to talk pure visuals, though...frankly, the best "looking" star wars is easily III, or possibly II.

- The Philosophies: 'Let the past die' is a central theme of this film. Who are Rey's parents? Two drunks who dropped her off...doesn't matter who your parents are...keep moving forward. Who was Snoke? Who cares...keep moving forward. Luke feeling guilty for failing Kylo?...he has to move on past it. Those old Jedi texts, as Yoda tells him 'page turners, they were not'. It's a clear message that this is not going to rely on the past...we are getting a new, fresh take on Star Wars.

New and fresh, then make your own universe, instead of screwing up an existing one so you can shoehorn in your own ideas and characters. I hate to sound curmudgeon here, but...

One of my favorite lines of the film was (and I'm paraphrasing) 'If you only believe in the sun during the day, how will you survive at night?'
Which I thought was called back in the final shot with the stable boy looking up into the night sky, after playing with his makeshift action figures re-enacting Luke's battle, now 'sparked' with the hope for change in the galaxy.

I liked that, too. It's getting flack online, but I thought the sunset scene was good.

Overall, some may be meh on it, others might feel it is too far far away from the original trilogy they grew up with. I can respect that.

I think discounting it as "too far from the original trilogy they grew up with" isn't the correct way to view it. This is about bad story telling. I think too much emphasis (not completely unjustified, just too much emphasis) is placed on "nostalgia". Yes, I am late Gen-X. I was born after the first movie, but before the second, and saw the second in the theater (and don't remember it, frankly...I DO remember seeing the Muppet Movie though). I did grow up with them on Beta tape, watching them over and over and over and over again...

And, note what you said earlier. Force Awakens doesn't have much rewatchability. The original trilogy...did.

And, the reason why, with this particular franchise...a lot of emphasis is placed on that nostalgia. My age and younger, who "grew up with it".

Well...it is far more complex than that. The original movies didn't win the awards they won, or have the box office success they did, because the "kids liked it".

It was because adults, at the time, also liked it.

Why? They told a better story, a more adult story, with nuance, and left more to the imagination and for the audience (or authors in the EU) to fill in.

This, though, doesn't just leave stuff to the imagination...it presents stuff that makes no sense, and characters that are as about as deep as the 1980's GI cartoon movie.

But, note that is the minority opinion, despite the vocal negative online chatter.

93% on Rotten Tomatoes, 86% MetaCritic, A rating CinemaScore, tracking a $200+ Million Opening Weekend. Star Wars as a franchise will be just fine with this new generation of films and audiences. I can't wait to see what they do with Episode IX.

93% CRITIC rating. Viewer rating is closer to 50%.

And, the thing about this franchise is...until Disney plays it out, it will draw. But, box office numbers aren't the only way to judge a film.

As Mark Hamill pointed out in the video I posted earlier...Transformers movies make a lot of money. Yet, you don't find many people who:

a) Call themselves fans
b) Are RABID fans
c) Rewatch them outside of moments they want to turn off their brains for 2 hours
d) Would say they are actually GOOD storytelling or good movies

 

[englanddg]

The threat is from within...not the stereotypical old evil guy sitting in a chair with ultimate power.

The threat is that both Rey and Kylo have raw power with the force, they are the Ying and Yang of the Force with Snoke and Luke gone, and either of them could swing the galaxy into chaos with just one turn to the dark, or ...they could have an equal and opposite change for good with one act. You can have an entire fleet, but one little action can offset it.

These are themes central to Star Wars (ie - small X-Wings blowing up battle stations) however it has presented differently here than in previous films...which connects with some, others not so much.

That's all nice and good (a philosophical representation)...

But, it's a galaxy that is little explored in either movie, and that we don't really (in movie canon) know or care much about, and the few times we've been shown it, it was either being destroyed, or is a party planet.

I am all for the philosophical investigation of the "force"...but, this isn't how you tell that story. This is how a fan tells this story on a blog post.

 

[spacemt354]

I've read better fan fiction in an Imagineering competition...to be frank.



That should be a warning to you...to think critically about this one. And, I agree. Though, I actually did watch it 3 times, unlike Rogue One, which only got 1.5 viewings from me. THAT movie...was bad.

Agree to disagree on both accounts.

I think how the community of older fans and younger fans at large accepted Clone Wars and Rebels, shows...new stories aren't bad at all. New characters, aren't bad at all. And, it's the UNIVERSE we want to explore...and that doesn't mean we need fan service to do it. The second trilogy, this late in the game, would have been much stronger, imho, if they had tossed a few cameos in, but otherwise, just gone off in their own direction. Telling a "different" story about Star Wars.

But, they didn't. With this movie, though, I did get the feeling that the architects (if there really are any at Disney) that are responsible for binding all the Canon together, want to shed the old universe for good. And, you know what, I'm fine with that. I wish they had done that one movie ago...

But this is not a different universe -- it's an evolved universe.

Copernicus, Darwin, upended many of the old philosophies on earth. How I interpret this is...midi-chlorians are essentially...old teachings. Sun revolving around the earth, flat earth, etc.

Those theories have evolved. The Force can be with anyone...even a nobody. And in times of unbalance...can call to you to make a difference, Star Wars has always been a spiritual saga, so evolving the spirituality of the franchise is bold, but refreshing.

Quite. And, in Rebels they get into the Grey Jedi. That is now Canon. I expected that this go around, but we'll see. That said, heroic isn't stupid (referring to Poe), and what Luke did was far from Machiavellian (Machiavelli preferred not to use confrontation or force at all...re-read the Prince...if any character in this movie was close to Machiavellian, it was Snoke, who then died in a cool scene, but one that could easily have been written by Seth Green for Robot Chicken).

I would have wished Snoke went out with a bit more of a fight, but what Poe did was stupid. Betrayed orders and got a lot of people killed in the process. His heart in the right place, his mind not thinking of the consequences.

I disagree. This movie was dark and boring, with recurring visuals and not much action, and certainly very little that was unique (unique to Star Wars, if you want to call a casino straight out of a Star Trek TNG episode with aliens in it unique). If you want to talk pure visuals, though...frankly, the best "looking" star wars is easily III, or possibly II.



New and fresh, then make your own universe, instead of screwing up an existing one so you can shoehorn in your own ideas and characters. I hate to sound curmudgeon here, but...

The original trilogy still exists though. It's one thing I don't understand about people saying things like 'they've destroyed Star Wars! They screwed it all up!!"

*Races to check DVD and VHS collection*

Nope - unharmed!

I think discounting it as "too far from the original trilogy they grew up with" isn't the correct way to view it. This is about bad story telling. I think too much emphasis (not completely unjustified, just too much emphasis) is placed on "nostalgia". Yes, I am late Gen-X. I was born after the first movie, but before the second, and saw the second in the theater (and don't remember it, frankly...I DO remember seeing the Muppet Movie though). I did grow up with them on Beta tape, watching them over and over and over and over again...

And, note what you said earlier. Force Awakens doesn't have much rewatchability. The original trilogy...did.

And, the reason why, with this particular franchise...a lot of emphasis is placed on that nostalgia. My age and younger, who "grew up with it".

Force Awakens had a familiar story, it wasn't that the story was bad...it was that it was a bit too familiar. With this new franchise, I wanted to see an evolved universe, and other than new sleeker Stormtrooper uniforms, it remained similar to what we already knew about the franchise. The Last Jedi is something completely different than The Force Awakens, and any Star Wars film that came before it, and has plenty of rewatchability for me because it introduces a story that upends your expectations and leaves you questioning what will happen next.

Well...it is far more complex than that. The original movies didn't win the awards they won, or have the box office success they did, because the "kids liked it".

It was because adults, at the time, also liked it.

Why? They told a better story, a more adult story, with nuance, and left more to the imagination and for the audience (or authors in the EU) to fill in.

This, though, doesn't just leave stuff to the imagination...it presents stuff that makes no sense, and characters that are as about as deep as the 1980's GI cartoon movie.

Really, so everyone knew after Empire what was going on? Nobody had mixed reactions to that movie because the story was different than the original and seemed to just end...with no resolution? Oh, wait.

93% CRITIC rating. Viewer rating is closer to 50%.

And, the thing about this franchise is...until Disney plays it out, it will draw. But, box office numbers aren't the only way to judge a film.

As Mark Hamill pointed out in the video I posted earlier...Transformers movies make a lot of money. Yet, you don't find many people who:

a) Call themselves fans
b) Are RABID fans
c) Rewatch them outside of moments they want to turn off their brains for 2 hours
d) Would say they are actually GOOD storytelling or good movies

CinemaScore is a more reliable audience rating, and it got an A.

I don't trust the frivolous RT audience score that anyone can post on. Imdb is at 8.1...RT audience was 56%...both are useless unscientific metrics.

Every Star Wars film since the originals has had a rabid fan negative response, it will never be able to please everyone. I believe this is good storytelling and deep characters that have evolved the franchise beyond just nostalgia and familiarity.

That's all nice and good (a philosophical representation)...

But, it's a galaxy that is little explored in either movie, and that we don't really (in movie canon) know or care much about, and the few times we've been shown it, it was either being destroyed, or is a party planet.

I am all for the philosophical investigation of the "force"...but, this isn't how you tell that story. This is how a fan tells this story on a blog post.

Empire Strikes Back - Hoth, Dagobah, Bespin -- one is for a cool action scene, another for one character, another the final act.

And in ANH - we had 3 locations, one was destroyed, another attempted to be destroyed.

It is only viewing these originals with decades of context and extended backstories, that these planets are viewed with such depth. The films, however, used the planets to further the stories -- the same as what is going on in The Last Jedi...they are set pieces in a bigger story.

I will agree that I didn't like any of the planets (couldn't remember the name of any other than Jakuu) from Force Awakens. However, Star Wars has never provided the level of expanded world building fans crave in 2 hours of film. There's always been video games, novels, and more that build the world around the films and make them have more impact.

 

[englanddg]

Agree to disagree on both accounts.

Sure.

But this is not a different universe -- it's an evolved universe.

Copernicus, Darwin, upended many of the old philosophies on earth. How I interpret this is...midi-chlorians are essentially...old teachings. Sun revolving around the earth, flat earth, etc.

Those theories have evolved. The Force can be with anyone...even a nobody. And in times of unbalance...can call to you to make a difference, Star Wars has always been a spiritual saga, so evolving the spirituality of the franchise is bold, but refreshing.

You can "evolve" a philosophy by explaining it. They haven't explained any of this. A lot of what, not a lot of WHY.

Now, in the larger D-Canon, they do. Take the Bendu, for example. But, within the movies alone...a whole not of nothing.

I would have wished Snoke went out with a bit more of a fight, but what Poe did was stupid. Betrayed orders and got a lot of people killed in the process. His heart in the right place, his mind not thinking of the consequences.

It's more than that. That isn't how military operations work...at all. If Poe were a "Han" style character, it makes more sense. But, making everyone the "bad- rogue"...doesn't work.

The original trilogy still exists though. It's one thing I don't understand about people saying things like 'they've destroyed Star Wars! They screwed it all up!!"

*Races to check DVD and VHS collection*

Nope - unharmed!

I'm not complaining. The entire EU still exists as well. I can still read the Thrawn (Heir to the Empire) trilogy, which is far superior to this.

But, that isn't at all what I was trying to say. You can't just walk into a universe, upend it, and call it the same thing. And, if you are going to do that, just reboot it.

It's why I don't like the JJ Abrams universe Star Treks (though, at least he did "try" and give himself leeway with the timeline stuff), and I sure as hell have issues with Star Trek: Discovery, which claims to be prime timeline.

If you are going with new characters, no biggie. But, if you are going to make changes to the universe, you need to explain it. If you are going to make drastic changes to characters, you need to explain it. And, if you are going to introduce new characters, you need to explain them. Otherwise, it's just not something that the audience will care much about.

Force Awakens had a familiar story, it wasn't that the story was bad...it was that it was a bit too familiar. With this new franchise, I wanted to see an evolved universe, and other than new sleeker Stormtrooper uniforms, it remained similar to what we already knew about the franchise. The Last Jedi is something completely different than The Force Awakens, and any Star Wars film that came before it, and has plenty of rewatchability for me because it introduces a story that upends your expectations and leaves you questioning what will happen next.

We'll see how you feel about it in a year. I am willing to gamble you won't feel this way at all. It was a lazy way for them to do what they should have had the guts to do in the first movie, and shed the old lore.

Really, so everyone knew after Empire what was going on? Nobody had mixed reactions to that movie because the story was different than the original and seemed to just end...with no resolution? Oh, wait.

No. But, there you had characters you care about by that point, because you'd spent two movies with them. You also had a larger cause that you cared about, but here, not so much.

I see your point, and agree to an extent, I just don't grant it as much validity as you intend.

CinemaScore is a more reliable audience rating, and it got an A.


I don't trust the frivolous RT audience score that anyone can post on. Imdb is at 8.1...RT audience was 56%...both are useless unscientific metrics.

Every Star Wars film since the originals has had a rabid fan negative response, it will never be able to please everyone. I believe this is good storytelling and deep characters that have evolved the franchise beyond just nostalgia and familiarity.


Empire Strikes Back - Hoth, Dagobah, Bespin -- one is for a cool action scene, another for one character, another the final act.

And in ANH - we had 3 locations, one was destroyed, another attempted to be destroyed.

It is only viewing these originals with decades of context and extended backstories, that these planets are viewed with such depth. The films, however, used the planets to further the stories -- the same as what is going on in The Last Jedi...they are set pieces in a bigger story.

I will agree that I didn't like any of the planets (couldn't remember the name of any other than Jakuu) from Force Awakens. However, Star Wars has never provided the level of expanded world building fans crave in 2 hours of film. There's always been video games, novels, and more that build the world around the films and make them have more impact.

See my earlier post where I said something similar.

And, if you are Iger, that is exactly what you want.

And, personally, why I think the movie may be constructed the way it is.

Because...using a personal example, I know I want to finish Battlefront II because...it has extended story. (wink)

 

[spacemt354]

We'll see how you feel about it in a year. I am willing to gamble you won't feel this way at all. It was a lazy way for them to do what they should have had the guts to do in the first movie, and shed the old lore.

Just to clear this up - I doubt I will have a similar drop off not only because I came out of this movie with a better initial feeling than Force Awakens, but outside of the Star Wars lore, I'm a Rian Johnson fan. Not so much Abrams.

Looper is one of my favorite films, Brick is another good one, and his work on Breaking Bad. Personal preference, but I prefer his style of direction, and his take on this world was something I connected with and not just because it had characters from my childhood in it like TFA.

 

[Princess Leia]

I think we can all agree that the casino planet was pretty, but essentially useless, right?

Every minute we spent there dragged. I honestly think that Rian Johnson didn’t know what to do with Finn, so he just stuck him there for part of the film.

Which brings me to Rose. I wanted to like her, I really did. However, Kelly Marie Tran just didn’t make me believe enough. She’s adorable in real life, but I don’t think she delivered in this movie. She and Finn have known each other for what, a day? That declaration of love felt super forced. Also, this is the second new Star Wars film that has ended with a main character in a coma. I’m glad that the film is going to steer away from Finn/Rey, and had a feeling Finn/Rose was going to be developed, though I would have liked it to be developed better.

Phasma is the new Boba Fett- there for marketing purchases only.

Poe was a combination of all of Han & Luke’s terrible traits rolled into one. He was impulsive and cocky, and it was so hard to root for him. I think he learned some major lessons, so it will be interesting to see if he actually becomes a better person.