I think that would work because the buses would still be available as a back-up. The cost issue, and themeing problems, would keep this from happening.
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Why the Monorail Won't be Expanded
- Thread starter stlbobby
- Start date
I think that would work because the buses would still be available as a back-up. The cost issue, and themeing problems, would keep this from happening.
the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
10 years ago when gas was cheap sure. The volatile price of oil scares Disney, it's one of the reasons why they wanted to try to sell the parks. The current transportation system was built on the cheap and the price of oil and the cost to fix roads and buy new buses (accordion busses really?) can make it really expensive which will of course drive prices up, if they needed a reason.
I would imagine our friends at SIEMENS would love a shot at redoing the current system. A better advertisement for them over SSE IMHO.
Uncle Lupe
Well-Known Member
If this ever gets approved it could be awesome. I added a few crude touches to help the imagination. Look like the merch sales are up due to the ease of the transportation.
UNTITLED by Uncle Lupe, on Flickr
UNTITLED by Uncle Lupe, on Flickr
Goofyernmost
Premium Member
I apologize! I didn't read that post until after I posted the second one.
the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
Bus drivers certainly factor into this, but fossil fuels are subject to global market prices. Therefore, moving to an electric based system, which would mean buying grid energy/generating on property, would result in stabler energy prices because that form of energy is bought on a state regulated market.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
The current Monorail fleet is 20-21 years old.
We're going to need 12 new trains at some point in the next 5-10 years.
We're going to need 12 new trains at some point in the next 5-10 years.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
If they went to some form of alternative transportation that runs on electricity they could eliminate the volitility associated with crude oil prices. Electric prices can be volatile too, but not as much as oil and its easier to enter into long term contracts for electricity. They could further eliminate volitility by installing solar panels to partially run the system, at least during the day. Solar has come down a lot in price and is continuing to drop. Anyone who has been to DC, Philly, NY or New England recently for an NFL game has probably seen the solar panels at the stadiums. If its good enough for the NFL why not WDW. Florida is the sunshine state, why not use electric powered vehicles that are powered by the sun. Aside from the transportation benefits, imagine the PR boost they would get from advertising how green they are being.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
[quote="Corey P, post: 5244270, member: 69107"I'm sure Disney has taken in all the costs and cost savings. Oil could head to 50 dollars a barrel again, I was around in the late 70's when there was gas rationing, the sky was falling etc. Know what? It wasn't long till the next glut of oil and the SUV was born.[/quote]
Yeah, but with middle classes in countries like China, India, and Brazil buying more cars and goods that require oil (plastics, etc.) the lowest possible market price for oil will rise considerably as demand outstrips supply going forward.
http://www.eia.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=CH
Of course, Disney could use those parking lots it has and put up high efficiency solar panels to generate some of its electricity...
Yeah, but with middle classes in countries like China, India, and Brazil buying more cars and goods that require oil (plastics, etc.) the lowest possible market price for oil will rise considerably as demand outstrips supply going forward.
http://www.eia.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=CH
Of course, Disney could use those parking lots it has and put up high efficiency solar panels to generate some of its electricity...
GoofGoof
Premium Member
Disney does not buy power at residential rates set by the PUC. They enter into a C&I contract at rates favorable to the residential market price. I have seen large C&I contracts that go out as long as 15 or 20 years so they are much more stable than crude oil. I have no idea how long a contract Disney would have, but it's possible to lock in electricity long term. Hedging diesel fuel on NYMEX is possible, but the liquidity runs dry about 5 years out and it is capital intensive since you would have to post cash margin if the position goes out of the money.
GoofGoof
Premium Member
Large scale industrial solar is a different animal vs panels on your home. You are right that solar benefits from tax incentives, but wrong that it's a joke. It is becoming a viable source of power generation in areas with lots of sun. The Southwest a lot of solar being built right now. Without the tax incentives it is still more costly than electricty produced by traditional fossil fuel. There are PR benefits as well.
the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...-could-be-part-of-eventual-tax-reform-package
http://www.iags.org/costofoil.html
Under the current US energy market, what you said is correct for folks that don't live in states like CA, NY, WA, NJ, MA etc. that have better incentives. HOWEVER, Americans DO NOT pay the true cost of fossil fuels up front like folks do in Europe and East Asia. If we were to pay the true cost of oil along with a carbon tax, then it makes a lot more sense.
the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
Did I also mention that SIEMENS builds solar panels!!
http://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/power-generation/renewables/solar-power/
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
You mean similar to the roof of that parking garage at John Young & Sand Lake?
GoofGoof
Premium Member
There are energy companies out there too that would jump at the opportunity to be involved in a project at WDW. The PR for them is worth more than the contract. Here's an interesting article about the NFL deals:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/sci...wered-sundays-solar-comes-to-the-nfl-11950423
the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
I know it's gaining popularity in the Middle East and Europe, most notably Spain, use the mirror process. It would certainly be a better use of the land that Flamingo Crossings Phase One sits on.
I dunno, companies like Disney, where their business is so dependent on energy prices, have to plan for the worst and encourage others like airlines and plane manufacturers to make changes to ensure future security. Once oil hits 175-200 dollars a barrel in today's dollars, WDW is massively screwed. If you thought Euro Disney was bad...Corey P said:
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
No, this entire resort is about making an egregious amount of money. Its simply naive to think otherwise.
Also, these trains are falling apart. We need 12 new trains sometime soon. The fleet is OLD.
Also, these trains are falling apart. We need 12 new trains sometime soon. The fleet is OLD.
. . . it's one of the reasons why they wanted to try to sell the parks.
Really? Where was I when this happened? Was it in the 80's when merger crazes wrought insanity among corporate America?
I agree that the inflexibility of the monorail is a major drawback. Breakdowns wreak havoc, but the monorails usually run incredibly smoothly. I think the number is somewhere around 1 breakdown for every 10,000 hours run, or something. Yet that one breakdown can make you late for your character breakfast, and otherwise inconvenience thousands of guests who really want to get on with their vacations. And a bunch of extra monorail lines can't be deployed after the fireworks show is done, or when the park closes. Busses have that capability.
Yet I still think the primary reason is the cost, and the fact that monorails just aren't as cutting edge as they once were. Do any of us truly "dream" of new monorails? My Disney type dreams, such as they are, focus on new parks, cruise ship destinations, and cool attractions. When I wake up in my Disney hotel, my first thought isn't, "Oh boy, I get to ride the monorail today." No, it's something along the lines of, "Which park are we hitting today?" "Where are we eating?" "Is the new Fantasyland opened yet?" And, "Is anyone in the bathroom?"
Sorry, monorails are cool, but I would still go to Disney and spend a few thousand dollars even if they were all torn down. I love them, but they don't add enough to the experience to change my spending behavior.
Really? Where was I when this happened? Was it in the 80's when merger crazes wrought insanity among corporate America?
I agree that the inflexibility of the monorail is a major drawback. Breakdowns wreak havoc, but the monorails usually run incredibly smoothly. I think the number is somewhere around 1 breakdown for every 10,000 hours run, or something. Yet that one breakdown can make you late for your character breakfast, and otherwise inconvenience thousands of guests who really want to get on with their vacations. And a bunch of extra monorail lines can't be deployed after the fireworks show is done, or when the park closes. Busses have that capability.
Yet I still think the primary reason is the cost, and the fact that monorails just aren't as cutting edge as they once were. Do any of us truly "dream" of new monorails? My Disney type dreams, such as they are, focus on new parks, cruise ship destinations, and cool attractions. When I wake up in my Disney hotel, my first thought isn't, "Oh boy, I get to ride the monorail today." No, it's something along the lines of, "Which park are we hitting today?" "Where are we eating?" "Is the new Fantasyland opened yet?" And, "Is anyone in the bathroom?"
Sorry, monorails are cool, but I would still go to Disney and spend a few thousand dollars even if they were all torn down. I love them, but they don't add enough to the experience to change my spending behavior.
ULPO46
Well-Known Member
You do realize that under Florida law, WDW is to have it's own "governing body" must make it's own water and electricity. It's under the Reedy Creek Improvement District. I liv in Disney property something called the Golden Oaks. I pay my bills to Reedy Creek and there something like 30 dollars cheaper than OUC and Progress Energy. They have better purchasing power as of such thats why the HESS inside WDW are about 3 dollars cheaper than th 5-7 dollars a gallon that around the Resort's outskirts.
With thats stated, yes it is very unlikely that anytime soon we see Warning: Monorail Counstruction when visiting the parks. But the rumors of the Disney Transit being upgraded for the buses will become a reality pretty soon. They are at least 10 years old and are possibly going to be updated pretty soon as seen in a recent report done by the Daily Disney on the Orlando Sentinel.
I agree with Raphlaw I love monrails they are cool but lets face it in 1970's dollars the monorail cost 1 million dollars per mile of track not to mention the veihchle it's self. I don't think it will affect anyone wanting to purchase more just because of a monorail. It's still easy to get to the parks from DTD. You just hop on the resort buses and wait for the Parks Bus. But on a regular day if all of the sudden the monorail shuts down it's a mess. You can wait anywhere from 30-45 minutes to get on the bus to go from point A to point B. On a busy day sure they will have more employees and more buses but if all of the sudden the grid fails it's pretty bad. It be a bad picture. I agree with everyone who has added their contributes. But we have to be realistic. Corparate att his point has spent way to much with two major park overhauls. 1 new theme park and 2 new cruise ships. Thats alot of money in total the amount is something like 10 billion dollars spent. Disney Co. makes 80 billion a year. Yeah corporate is right now thinking strongly why did they just spend so much in such small amount of time.
With thats stated, yes it is very unlikely that anytime soon we see Warning: Monorail Counstruction when visiting the parks. But the rumors of the Disney Transit being upgraded for the buses will become a reality pretty soon. They are at least 10 years old and are possibly going to be updated pretty soon as seen in a recent report done by the Daily Disney on the Orlando Sentinel.
I agree with Raphlaw I love monrails they are cool but lets face it in 1970's dollars the monorail cost 1 million dollars per mile of track not to mention the veihchle it's self. I don't think it will affect anyone wanting to purchase more just because of a monorail. It's still easy to get to the parks from DTD. You just hop on the resort buses and wait for the Parks Bus. But on a regular day if all of the sudden the monorail shuts down it's a mess. You can wait anywhere from 30-45 minutes to get on the bus to go from point A to point B. On a busy day sure they will have more employees and more buses but if all of the sudden the grid fails it's pretty bad. It be a bad picture. I agree with everyone who has added their contributes. But we have to be realistic. Corparate att his point has spent way to much with two major park overhauls. 1 new theme park and 2 new cruise ships. Thats alot of money in total the amount is something like 10 billion dollars spent. Disney Co. makes 80 billion a year. Yeah corporate is right now thinking strongly why did they just spend so much in such small amount of time.
flynnibus
Premium Member
The key is if they are qualified as a 'mass transit provider' in FL - if so, they can avoid paying tax on their bus fuel. That is what would make them tax-exempt.. not simply buying more than the average joe.
But even still.. city buses only average like 6mpg. The loop from TTC to ECPOT (just as an example) is roughly 5miles. So a half hour circuit is about 2gallons (roughly). Or an hour.. 4 gallons. To my knowledge, they are only freed from state taxes as a transit system, not Federal.. so their discount is only about 25c a gallon.. plus whatever bulk rate they can get. Assume it's $3/gal.. that's still $12/hr in fuel. Disney starting pay for bus drivers is under $11/hr. So add on employment costs.. estimate $15/hr cost per employee.. $12/hr in fuel. I'd say the fuel is neck and neck with labor.
As for electric... Disney (through it's owned subsidary which acts as the contractor for electric in RCID) has to buy the bulk of it's energy needs from other utilities. RCID can generate just 40 MW.. which the peak demand for the district was 190MW. See their rates here - http://www.rcid.org/DoingBusiness/Utilities/RateSchedules.aspx
Disney (through RCID) is buying the majority of it's energy - not producing.