New Orlando Railway skipping Airport and Disney

[Club Cooloholic]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/us/politics/28mica.html
The link above is great story about the new railway project they are about to begin in Orlando. It's hilarious thought because it will only service about 2,500 riders and it does not go to the airport or Disney World(I am sure Disney might not have wanted it too anyway). Any locals have opinions on this? I would have been awesome if it went to the parks(even Universal) as the traffic would have eased quite a bit I am sure.

 

[CAPTAIN HOOK]

While Disney operates its own free buses to / from the airport and all the car rental firms have a depot at or near the airport, building a train line (with stations) through Disney to the airport doesn't make much financial sense :shrug:

 

[Club Cooloholic]

While Disney operates its own free buses to / from the airport and all the car rental firms have a depot at or near the airport, building a train line (with stations) through Disney to the airport doesn't make much financial sense :shrug:

I think your missing the point. The state is building a railway that will support surrounding communities. So people that live and work in the area might want to be able to take the train to the airport or disney(to work or play at). The railway is a waste of money as it stands now. I personally think it would be cool if they had a rail line that went to the tampa area!

 

[tizzo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/us/politics/28mica.html
The link above is great story about the new railway project they are about to begin in Orlando. It's hilarious thought because it will only service about 2,500 riders and it does not go to the airport or Disney World(I am sure Disney might not have wanted it too anyway). Any locals have opinions on this? I would have been awesome if it went to the parks(even Universal) as the traffic would have eased quite a bit I am sure.

The rail line is a commuter line, and as such it's appropriate for it to skip Disney/Universal and MCO. In addition, there is no right-of-way acquisition as part of the project. SunRail is going to run on existing rails or new rails built on existing right-of-way, so it can only go where it can go.

The article itself seems to be blending SunRail and the HSR project that actually was killed. The cost they cite for example seems much higher than what I remember reading for SunRail, and more in line with what they were saying about HSR.

Daily ridership of 2150 (each way) is nothing to sneeze at, considering that the line will start operating in phases with only a portion opening on the first day. Consider that HSR, the demise of which caused a huge uproar when Scott killed it, would have been lucky to carry 2150 per week.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

The rail line is a commuter line, and as such it's appropriate for it to skip Disney/Universal and MCO. In addition, there is no right-of-way acquisition as part of the project. SunRail is going to run on existing rails or new rails built on existing right-of-way, so it can only go where it can go.

The article itself seems to be blending SunRail and the HSR project that actually was killed. The cost they cite for example seems much higher than what I remember reading for SunRail, and more in line with what they were saying about HSR.

Daily ridership of 2150 (each way) is nothing to sneeze at, considering that the line will start operating in phases with only a portion opening on the first day. Consider that HSR, the demise of which caused a huge uproar when Scott killed it, would have been lucky to carry 2150 per week.

The numbers still seem awfully low for such a high expense, especially if the Senator is trying to justify it's existence by comparing money spent on railines in the northeast where hundreds of thousand use the commuter lines. As for skipping Disney and Universal, well as you say it's a commuter train, and who employs more folks in the Orlando area than those two? Especially younger people on limited incomes who would probably really take advantage of a rail system.

 

[tizzo]

The numbers still seem awfully low for such a high expense

That is, at least in part, due to some clever wordsmithing in the article itself. Note the bold portions:

"With a price tag of $1.2 billion at completion, the rail line is expected to serve just 2,150 commuters a day when it starts operating in three years."

The point here is that even if accurate, the $1.2B is for the entire 61 mile route, while the 2,150 is the number of round-trip riders (the more commonly used number is the number of trips, which is 4,300), but only for the first 30 mile segment, and only when it first opens. The same projection calls for ridership to increase to over 7,000 per day by 2030.

especially if the Senator is trying to justify it's existence by comparing money spent on railines in the northeast where hundreds of thousand use the commuter lines

I haven't heard such a comparison made - certainly the article doesn't refer to such a comparison. In any case I'm not aware of a comparable commuter line that carries hundreds of thousands of people - certainly not one that wasn't commensurately more expensive to build. If you were to try to build the systems serving the likes of NYC, WDC, or Chicago today, you would spend far more per daily passenger than is being proposed for SunRail.

The one comparison that was made, and which was not challenged by the NYT, is that SunRail will carry as many commuters as a lane of I-4, at a cost substantially less than that of adding a lane.

 

[tizzo]

As for skipping Disney and Universal, well as you say it's a commuter train, and who employs more folks in the Orlando area than those two? Especially younger people on limited incomes who would probably really take advantage of a rail system.

That's not a bad point. I think here the practical considerations are the most important. Consider:

• No right-of-way acquisition means if the tracks don't already go there, the train can't go there. (Presumably the same is true for Universal and MCO as well).
• While there are people who commute to WDW, the vast majority are tourists and Disney is already transporting them at their own expense. That means SunRail would essentially be assuming this cost on behalf of the taxpayers.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

That is, at least in part, due to some clever wordsmithing in the article itself. Note the bold portions:

"With a price tag of $1.2 billion at completion, the rail line is expected to serve just 2,150 commuters a day when it starts operating in three years."

The point here is that even if accurate, the $1.2B is for the entire 61 mile route, while the 2,150 is the number of round-trip riders (the more commonly used number is the number of trips, which is 4,300), but only for the first 30 mile segment, and only when it first opens. The same projection calls for ridership to increase to over 7,000 per day by 2030.



I haven't heard such a comparison made - certainly the article doesn't refer to such a comparison. In any case I'm not aware of a comparable commuter line that carries hundreds of thousands of people - certainly not one that wasn't commensurately more expensive to build. If you were to try to build the systems serving the likes of NYC, WDC, or Chicago today, you would spend far more per daily passenger than is being proposed for SunRail.

From the article,
“For as long as I have been in Congress, Central Florida has been sending its mass transit money to New York, Philadelphia, Chicago and now to other cities — that is where our gas tax dollars have gone,” he said.

And true, it's hard to find any comparable line, never heard of one set up like this. I am sure this is being done with nothing but the people in mind.

 

[tizzo]

From the article,
“For as long as I have been in Congress, Central Florida has been sending its mass transit money to New York, Philadelphia, Chicago and now to other cities — that is where our gas tax dollars have gone,” he said.

First - he has a point. We DO pay taxes in FL that end up being spent on mass transit projects elsewhere.

Second, this is not the comparison you attributed to him. He made no assertion that SunRail was more or less cost-effective than other cities' mass transit system, nor did he make any kind of comparison. He merely pointed out, again correctly, that other cities have mass transit systems that are partially funded by Floridians' tax dollars.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

First - he has a point. We DO pay taxes in FL that end up being spent on mass transit projects elsewhere.

Second, this is not the comparison you attributed to him. He made no assertion that SunRail was more or less cost-effective than other cities' mass transit system, nor did he make any kind of comparison. He merely pointed out, again correctly, that other cities have mass transit systems that are partially funded by Floridians' tax dollars.

True, but isn't it a little like saying that Pennsylvania should get federal funding for a major Hurricane prevention program, since federal taxes fund relief etc in other Florida and other Gulf states? I guess It just seems like as the project stands now, to be wasteful. If it pulled in some more even the airport it would have much more use. Right now it seems like the old monorail episode from the Simpsons.

 

[tizzo]

I should point out that I'm anything but a cheerleader for Mica. He was one of the idiots who tried to sue Scott for killing HSR.

But I'm also a firm believer that invalid criticism of a public official, however bad he might be, is to be avoided if for no other reason than that it reduces the credibility of valid criticisms.

As far as I'm concerned, his support for HSR - and particularly the way he went about it - is indefensible. On Sunrail, he at least has an argument on his side. People will ride it, and while it will never be profitable (mass transit is never profitable), that's not the appropriate measuring stick for such a project. What is important is whether it is the most cost-effective solution to a problem. And for the problem at hand, in which the only alternative to SunRail is to add a lane to I-4, there is no data to say anything other than that SunRail is the better option.

 

[tizzo]

True, but isn't it a little like saying that Pennsylvania should get federal funding for a major Hurricane prevention program, since federal taxes fund relief etc in other Florida and other Gulf states?

I see what you're saying, but you're obviously being more than a little facetious for effect. The analogy fails because Pennsylvania doesn't have major hurricanes, while Florida does have commuters. And to introduce a little facetiousness of my own - how sure are you that PA doesn't receive federal funds for hurricane mitigation?

As I mentioned in my last post (which I understand you hadn't read yet when you wrote this), some points on Mica's side are that people will ride SunRail, and it is true that SunRail is more cost effective than what seems to be the only alternative, which is adding one or more lanes to I-4.

 

[tizzo]

I guess It just seems like as the project stands now, to be wasteful.

Would you be basing this conclusion entirely, or even mostly, on the content of an article in the NYT?

If it pulled in some more even the airport it would have much more use.

Probably so. But again, at what cost? Right now, depending on whether you believe SunRail or NYT, the cost is either $600M+, or $1.2B, and that's without having to acquire any right-of-way. Start expanding beyond the existing scope of the project and you're getting into all kinds of additional cost. Don't believe for a second that CTX built the existing track or acquired the existing right-of-way without going through all kinds of environmental studies, for example, that would have to be figured in if they decide to start expanding beyond the existing lines. Then there are eminent domain issues which add both cost and years, and lord knows what else. You could end up doubling or even tripling the value, but increasing the cost tenfold.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

Would you be basing this conclusion entirely, or even mostly, on the content of an article in the NYT?



Probably so. But again, at what cost? Right now, depending on whether you believe SunRail or NYT, the cost is either $600M+, or $1.2B, and that's without having to acquire any right-of-way. Start expanding beyond the existing scope of the project and you're getting into all kinds of additional cost. Don't believe for a second that CTX built the existing track or acquired the existing right-of-way without going through all kinds of environmental studies, for example, that would have to be figured in if they decide to start expanding beyond the existing lines. Then there are eminent domain issues which add both cost and years, and lord knows what else. You could end up doubling or even tripling the value, but increasing the cost tenfold.

True. Look your a person who lives down there I am assuming, so if the locals think it is something useful I will for sure yield to that. I am not in the area so I can't really say I have a vested interest, and maybe it will allow for for further expansion in other areas. But as a visitor a rail line that goes to the airport is always appreciated.

 

[tizzo]

True. Look your a person who lives down there I am assuming, so if the locals think it is something useful I will for sure yield to that. I am not in the area so I can't really say I have a vested interest, and maybe it will allow for for further expansion in other areas. But as a visitor a rail line that goes to the airport is always appreciated.

Understood, and maybe someday we'll have one. I would personally love to have a rail line from the corner at the end of my street to the TTC . But there's an old saying about the perfect being the enemy of the good, and I think that applies here. It was an interesting discussion though.

 

[Clever Name]

If the locals want it, then they can pay for it. CSX gets enough tax dollars. Governor Scott isn't going to release the money for this CSX handout. :wave:

 

[tizzo]

If the locals want it, then they can pay for it.

We are paying for it. The federal contribution is only half the projected total, which doesn't bring us anywhere near parity with respect to what we pay in gasoline taxes.

CSX gets enough tax dollars. Governor Scott isn't going to release the money for this CSX handout. :wave:

We're supposed to find out about that tomorrow.

 

[Clever Name]

We are paying for it.

And you will pay a lot more (to CSX) if Rick Scott allows you to be scammed by this project.

If the governor releases the money, the state will not cover any costs after seven years. The local governments will have to pay those bills. If the local governments can’t come up with the money, then the state will withhold transportation funds that would have gone to the local governments. What this all boils down to is that CSX is going to get tax dollars that would have gone for roads and bridges. It’s a total win for CSX and a complete loss for the local taxpayers. So, if the locals want to directly subsidize CSX, then this is a golden opportunity. CSX is smart. I don’t think Governor Scott is going to allow the locals to be abused by CSX in this way.

P.S. This is not about commuter rail service. It's all about giving more tax money to CSX. :wave:

 

[JoeZer]

The rail line is a commuter line, and as such it's appropriate for it to skip Disney/Universal and MCO.

I can see and understand about the theme parks in the area not being directly on the commuter rail line. But...the airport, conceptually, should not be ignored. While it may not be as "great" as the commuter rails up north in cities like NYC, Boston, Chicago and others...Atlanta's commuter train does connect to the airport here (ATL is the southern-most point on our commuter line). I know Boston's MBTA connects to Logan Airport. Chicago's system connects/serves both O'Hare and Midway from what I recall and I believe the NYC system does (though please correct me...gently).

In addition, there is no right-of-way acquisition as part of the project. SunRail is going to run on existing rails or new rails built on existing right-of-way, so it can only go where it can go.

If it's purely a "right of way" issue with not including MCO on the commuter rail then I can understand the decision not to run it to the airport. But, overtime, that is something that can be worked with as the ridership and demand for the commuter line(s) increases.

 

[trr1]

is there a map that show the route of the rail line?
and did disney take back the land they were going to donate for the HSR